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The Insect Court posted:Of course, there are very obvious objections to administrative detention(in Israel or elsewhere). It's just that it's a staggeringly obvious dodge when H.X. implies he wants Israeli police tossing Arab-Israelis in jail for Facebook posts supporting the current wave of 'resistance' as long as certain basic procedural safeguards are met. If he thinks that the people responsible for social media posts like these belong in jail, then it hasn't been very apparent given the nonstop link spam of "evil Rabbi says a thing" posts. You think there's a minor difference between investigation, arrest, charging and trial and putting children in prison without trial. This isn't a minor difference over procedure, as several people who grasp the basics of justice already pointed out. And yes, equally, any imam who says words to the effect of 'you should kill innocent or wounded Jews by smashing their head to a pulp' should absolutely face investigation, arrest and a fair trial. What shouldn't happen is that a kid with absolutely 0 authority in the wider state is arrested and kept imprisoned for months without charge or trial. And, again you keep missing this, a guy who just wanted the corpse of his son has been arrested and imprisoned without trial after two Israeli courts ordered his release. This simply doesn't happen to Jews in Israel.
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Oct 25, 2015 08:47
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The Insect Court posted:Of course, there are very obvious objections to administrative detention(in Israel or elsewhere). It's just that it's a staggeringly obvious dodge when H.X. implies he wants Israeli police tossing Arab-Israelis in jail for Facebook posts supporting the current wave of 'resistance' as long as certain basic procedural safeguards are met. If he thinks that the people responsible for social media posts like these belong in jail, then it hasn't been very apparent given the nonstop link spam of "evil Rabbi says a thing" posts. He said none of those things and has made his stance on the subject very clear. You make a lot of very long posts where you extrapolate a complete nonsensical position for other posters, and then tearing that position down. What do you think this accomplishes? Nobody reading this thread actually believes that he wants teenagers arrested for Facebook posts, except for you. Incidentally, you're also poo poo at making your own stances clear. You've made the claim that Palestinians are not indigenous to Israel, and when asked to elaborate, you just respond that it's anti-Semitic to claim that Jews aren't indigenous. You'll notice that nobody has constructed a response to the belief that Jews are indigenous while Palestinians aren't, because it's not a position that anyone has explicitly claimed to have, even though one might infer that you feel that way.
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Oct 25, 2015 09:41
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Hong XiuQuan posted:You think there's a minor difference between investigation, arrest, charging and trial and putting children in prison without trial. You're being oddly specific here. Why do I get the feeling you've got tendentious definitions of "fair trial" and "to the effect of" that result in only the sort of people you despise being imprisoned for incitement? So this guy. Lock him up? And that's just for starters? You're saying you'd not just tolerate but actively cheer Israel jailing Palestinians for 'incitement'?
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Oct 25, 2015 12:28
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The Insect Court posted:You're being oddly specific here. Why do I get the feeling you've got tendentious definitions of "fair trial" and "to the effect of" that result in only the sort of people you despise being imprisoned for incitement? TIC, what is oddly specific about "people are entitled to due process whether they're Jews or Muslims"?
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Oct 25, 2015 12:47
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Jesus who gives a poo poo. In "things that actually happened" news, Netanyahu has just became the first Israeli PM who officially recognized the unspoken "Status Quo" concerning worshipping rights on the Temple Mount or however you personally prefer referring to the place. Quoth Netanyahu: "the status quo shall remain as it always was, Muslims may ascend the mount to worship, members of all other religions may only come as visitors". This might not seem meaningful but as I noted, this status quo was never officially confirmed by the Israeli government, so some of the "blow al aqsa, rebuild the temple" type Jews are a bit upset about this whole thing, certain Jewish Home MKs have already threatened resignation. In addition, Netanyahu has agreed to Kerry's request to install surveillance cameras all over the mountain and around it.
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Oct 25, 2015 12:56
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I dunno man, Hong XiuQuan's gimmick of quoting individual Jews' bad-think and asking why Israel doesn't disavow them comes off as the antisemitic equivalent of why don't muslims disavow terrorism. Isn't he muslim?
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Oct 25, 2015 13:08
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shrike82 posted:I dunno man, Hong XiuQuan's gimmick of quoting individual Jews' bad-think and asking why Israel doesn't disavow them comes off as the antisemitic equivalent of why don't muslims disavow terrorism. Isn't he muslim? Well for one he's talking about the actions of the state of Israel in arresting people without trial for lovely reasons, not some "individual Jew's bad-think". His point has nothing to do with disavowing some lone persons actions or statements and criticising him on that basis doesn't affect his point or his position in anyway.
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Oct 25, 2015 13:23
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Yes, there's context in the thread. For future reference guys, if I post a news story without what you feel is sufficient context, the context, again, is this: Nah, don't think you've been following him. He's literally playing the same race card that anti-muslims do .
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Oct 25, 2015 13:29
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shrike82 posted:I dunno man, Hong XiuQuan's gimmick of quoting individual Jews' bad-think and asking why Israel doesn't disavow them comes off as the antisemitic equivalent of why don't muslims disavow terrorism. Isn't he muslim? He's quoting individual rabbis' illegal incitement and asking why they are not arrested, considering that muslim teenagers have been arrested and held without charge for less. It's a leeeeeeetle bit different.
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Oct 25, 2015 13:29
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shrike82 posted:I dunno man, Hong XiuQuan's gimmick of quoting individual Jews' bad-think and asking why Israel doesn't disavow them comes off as the antisemitic equivalent of why don't muslims disavow terrorism. Isn't he muslim? Wait, when have I asked non-Israelis (or Israelis for that matter) to disavow anything? I've repeatedly asked why some posters think the state of Israel shouldn't investigate, arrest etc politicians and religious authorities who incite violence at a time of sectarian violence or to state their opinions plainly so they can be debated. This is very different from, say, asking a British Jew to apologise for a settler stabbing someone merely because he is Jewish. I don't quote the bad-think of individual Jews and then apply it to Israel. I ask why the Israeli state doesn't take action against its Jewish citizens when it clearly would when Muslim citizens are involved.
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Oct 25, 2015 13:41
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shrike82 posted:Nah, don't think you've been following him. No, I don't think you're following. That was a separate post about a different issue that happened a week ago. What we're talking about is the current discussion on a very different topic which involves the actions of the Israeli state (not an individual) in regards to arresting people without trial and arresting them for lovely reasons. Saying "Oh, he is just trying to make people look bad by pointing out the actions of radical individuals" does not fly when that is literally very much not what he is doing because he's talking about state sanctioned actions. Maybe he in some other post about a different topic a week ago your point may have been useful and relevant (Probably not cause it seems like you're misinterpreting him), but it certainly isn't useful now in relation to the point being discussed.
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Oct 25, 2015 13:45
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emanresu tnuocca posted:In "things that actually happened" news, Netanyahu has just became the first Israeli PM who officially recognized the unspoken "Status Quo" concerning worshipping rights on the Temple Mount or however you personally prefer referring to the place. Would love to know what Jordan (or maybe even the US) threatened in order to bring this about. There aren't that many names for the area you're talking about...
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Oct 25, 2015 13:47
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Hong XiuQuan posted:There aren't that many names for the area you're talking about... At least two, seems that it depends on a person's religion and political affiliation as to which one they prefer. I was just being snarky no need to make a fuss about it. The funny thing about Chickenshit's comment was that he made it in the middle of the night and only in English, he didn't bother clarifying the status quo to his constituents, for some reason.
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Oct 25, 2015 14:05
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Longtime lurker of this thread, just wanted to say: The Insect Court, you're dodging some really huge questions that would help clarify your perspective if you answered them simply and proactively. Your method of answering questions with questions is a bit frustrating. In particular I am super interested in hearing your perspective on tearing down the homes of relatives of criminals. Could you give a quick defense of the practice? Don't mean to single you out, but as one of the few folks defending Israel's practices you're in a unique position to put forth arguments instead of avoiding a stance.
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Oct 26, 2015 01:55
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Wait, when have I asked non-Israelis (or Israelis for that matter) to disavow anything? I've repeatedly asked why some posters think the state of Israel shouldn't investigate, arrest etc politicians and religious authorities who incite violence at a time of sectarian violence or to state their opinions plainly so they can be debated. This is very different from, say, asking a British Jew to apologise for a settler stabbing someone merely because he is Jewish. Hong XiuQuan posted:A top Rabbi in Israel issued a Fatwa allowing Jews to beat the heads of unconscious/subdued Palestinians to a pulp: http://www.kikar.co.il/183060.html (It's in Hebrew, so use Google Translate to get the gist) Really oozes with nuance, especially when sandwiched amongst the rest of the barrage of "evil Zionist does a thing" posts. Do us a favor and highlight the part of that post that contextualizes it in the way you insist you've been doing all along. I'll give this to you H.X., at least you haven't just gone straight to: pathetic little tramp posted:at some point, I think we all have to realise that the Israeli people may just not be good people. Anyone want to pretend this post is referring to Israeli Druze? Or that "the Palestinian people may just not be good people" would be followed with anything other than a long probation or ban for racism? In related news, the grand mufti of Jerusalem has endorsed the claim that there was never a Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount. quote:The grand mufti of Jerusalem, the Muslim cleric in charge of the Al-Aqsa Mosque, said Sunday that there has never been a Jewish temple atop the Temple Mount, and that the site has been home to a mosque “since the creation of the world.” He has also, as the link recounts, made past comments supporting of suicide bombings against Israelis. For the record, I absolutely do not think he should be locked up despite his past endorsement of violence or his more recent trafficking in this sort of anti-Jewish conspiracy theory.
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Oct 26, 2015 02:56
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The Insect Court posted:Really oozes with nuance, especially when sandwiched amongst the rest of the barrage of "evil Zionist does a thing" posts. Do us a favor and highlight the part of that post that contextualizes it in the way you insist you've been doing all along. So, what makes someone a good or bad person, The Insect Court?
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Oct 26, 2015 02:58
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Jesus who gives a poo poo.
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Oct 26, 2015 05:59
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The Insect Court posted:In related news, the grand mufti of Jerusalem has endorsed the claim that there was never a Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount. In the same interview he stated that the al-Aqsa mosque was built by angels 30,000 years ago, so I'm going to just make a wild guess and say he's not a reliable source here.
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Oct 26, 2015 06:38
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I think it's pretty obvious why the state of Israel would be more likely to act against people trying to foment violence against Israelis than it is to act against people who say it's fine to kill its enemies. Israeli laws aren't a thought experiment by poli sci majors, they exist for a purpose, the same purpose its government exists for - to preserve and safeguard a Jewish state. If you think of everything in those terms, which happen to also be the way it really is, you won't get tripped up about double standards quite as much, since there isn't a double standard, there isn't really a serious pretense that the government of Israel or its laws or actions have any aim besides the security of Israel and the preservation of Israeli lives. You might not approve of them running their country like this but it's hard to imagine that they care even a little bit. They care about the US Government's views because they rely a lot on the US. They care about the views of other governments to different extents, because they have various national interests connected to those governments. The US governemnt is happy to have one Jewish state among the many Arab Muslim ones in the region. Many American are happy for the same, and have a variety of reasons. I doubt Israel as a whole cares very much what Europeans think, since they wouldn't need a country of their own quite as badly if Europeans hadn't brutalized them for centuries then made a pretty effective attempt at exterminating them from the earth. For the foreseeable future, Israel is either going to be the Jewish state or is going to be destroyed/driven into the sea/whatever. Pick your outcome from the choices available, and let that guide your thinking. But be realistic about just how much you should expect Israel or its friends to care about what you think if you'd prefer the latter. And if you're willing to accept the former, be realistic about its implications for Israeli policy.
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Oct 26, 2015 08:43
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hakimashou posted:The US governemnt is happy to have one Jewish state among the many Arab Muslim ones in the region. Many American are happy for the same, and have a variety of reasons. Except for these two lines, you can literally substitute Nazi Germany/South Africa and Aryans/Afrikaners into your post get an argument that is exactly as valid. And neither of the remaining two lines seems to be a very valid argument for brutal oppression.
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Oct 26, 2015 09:02
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hakimashou posted:I think it's pretty obvious why the state of Israel would be more likely to act against people trying to foment violence against Israelis than it is to act against people who say it's fine to kill its enemies. Lots of antisemitism implicit in this, but in any case, I have determined that the preservation of the world as a decent place to live requires the immediate extermination of another human being. Is there any reason, beyond this vomitus about the possibility of being forced not to, that I should refrain from killing said person? Are you willing to take your game to that point, or will you resign?
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Oct 26, 2015 09:20
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hakimashou posted:I think it's pretty obvious why the state of Israel would be more likely to act against people trying to foment violence against Israelis than it is to act against people who say it's fine to kill its enemies. Well that escalated quickly. Let's imagine that this post isn't antisemitic for a second: Israel puts itself forward as a democracy. Its leadership specifically denounces the idea that it is an apartheid state because, in theory, its citizens are equal before the law founded on just principles. So when laws are unequally applied or international laws are broken, I - and I imagine a significant chunk of Israelis, Jews and Muslims alike - would like to hold the state to account for it. Unless you're arguing that the democracy is a mere fig leaf for an apartheid orchestrated by an international Jewish-US alliance?
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Oct 26, 2015 09:33
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hakimashou posted:If you think of everything in those terms, which happen to also be the way it really is, you won't get tripped up about double standards quite as much Indeed, if you just posit that Palestinians are not human beings, then there is no double standard in Israeli policies.
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Oct 26, 2015 12:08
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I mean, he's technically correct in that Israeli policy here is dictated by the Israeli far-right, and the far-right strongly prioritizes jewish Blut und Boden. The fallacy is the dichotomy of 'Israel must either be an apartheid state or it will be destroyed', while ignoring the option of a pluralistic republic, like every other grown-up country. Turns out ethnic supremacy is trash, surprise surprise, and that's no less true just because you're applying it to Jews instead of Germans, or Serbs, or Hutu, or whoever else you want.
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Oct 26, 2015 13:10
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We should destroy ISIL and give Israel a very clear message that nuclear transparency is in the best interest of its citizens.
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Oct 26, 2015 13:11
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I just wanted to update the thread that Bibi's rewriting of history has actually been a smashing success and that pretty much everyone to the right of Isaac Herzog in Israel would vehemently defend the veracity of Bibi's statements irt to al-Husseini being the creative mastermind behind the final solution but this does not in anyway diminish from Hitler's culpability but rather extends it to every Palestinian that ever lived and implicates Mahmud Abbas personally as one of the co-authors of the protocols of the elders of zion or something along those lines. This is all rather amazing cause I was always led to believe rewriting history requires significant efforts a-la Orwell's ministry of truth but as it turns out all it takes is speaking in low baritone and acting smug as poo poo on TV. It's really funny because the actual protocols of al-Husseini's one meeting with Hitler unequivocally show that not only did the exchange Bibi fabricated never took place but Hitler quite specifically re-assures al-Husseini that his agenda goes beyond expelling the Jews from the german empire and aims to fully destroy their communities within the empire and once the war is over to turn the efforts of the empire to the destruction of Jews in the Caucasus and the Levant via sympathetic proxy regimes, which is simply put the exact opposite of what Bibi claims as it shows that Hitler was already rather intent on genocide by the time the meeting took place and that he elucidated his intentions to al-Husseini without requiring the latter's input at any point. gently caress. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 13:30 on Oct 26, 2015 |
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Oct 26, 2015 13:15
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Honestly the Godwin comparisons are getting harder to ignore, because that is basically the equivalent of the 'stab in the back' myth. "We, in a time of crisis, were betrayed by this Other ethnicity, therefore violence against them is justified'.
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Oct 26, 2015 13:28
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If using a Palestinian leader who supposedly influenced Hitler from seventy years ago is a good reason to be distrustful of all current Palestinians I assume Israelis of German decent are getting similar treatment from the right wing.
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Oct 26, 2015 13:31
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Radish posted:If using a Palestinian leader who supposedly influenced Hitler from seventy years ago is a good reason to be distrustful of all current Palestinians I assume Israelis of German decent are getting similar treatment from the right wing. No Hitler just wanted to make an ethnically pure German state and was going to give the Jews their own so they wouldn't be a troublesome minority. But then that evil Palestinian convinced him to genocide.
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Oct 26, 2015 13:47
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Before mass extermination of the Roma took place it was suggested, by Himmler, I think, that because certain Gypsies were actually determined to be of Aryan stock, historically, than rather than be killed they should be relocated to reservations where German children could presumably gawp at them. Hitler said gently caress that and killed them anyway. I don't think he needed his arm twisted to do it to the Jews.
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Oct 26, 2015 13:56
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So, more verbal diarrhea from Netanyahu: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.682374 tl;dr "I don't want a binational state but for the forseeable future we're going to need to maintain our military control over the west bank" he adds "Yes, Israel shall forever be devoured by the sword" (Awkward translation, it's a verse from Samuel II https://www.bible.com/bible/114/2sa.2.nkjv referring to a constant state of warfare, the bible actually presents this as an absurd state that will lead to the fall of the nation of Israel and warns against allowing the sword to 'forever devour', but yeah, I guess Bibi doesn't bulk at that). So yeah, perma war, no two state solution, no one state solution, just war and a military dictatorship forever and ever. Yay.
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Oct 26, 2015 14:37
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emanresu tnuocca posted:So, more verbal diarrhea from Netanyahu: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.682374 He pussyfoots about it but it's clear he does this equivocation to avoid straightforward criticism of apartheid but, illicit video recordings where he admits it aside - it's been effective Likud policy since 1996 that 'there will be no Palestinian state west of the river Jordan'.
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Oct 26, 2015 14:42
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I think this is the first official endorsement of the 'no solution' solution though. So that's something.
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Oct 26, 2015 14:43
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quote:'I'm asked if we will forever live by the sword – yes,' says prime minister. I guess that as Jew, of course he wouldn't be familiar with the Christian saying of what happens to those who live by the sword.
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Oct 26, 2015 14:48
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I think this is the first official endorsement of the 'no solution' solution though. So that's something. Have you guys watched the Ayelet Shaked interview with Mehdi Hasan yet? http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/upfront/2015/10/state-solution-valid-solution-151013081528610.html <-- in it she says that she's up for major Palestinian conurbations near Jordanian border to be absorbed by Jordan with Gaza being absorbed by Egypt. This is essentially the play. Atm major settlement blocs effectively on the most fertile Palestinian land with greatest access to water resources. Practical solution for Israeli leadership is to continue with the land grabs then do a Gaza on the West Bank, potentially with some ethnic cleansing but mostly to absorb the big settled areas and reject the arid remainders.
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Oct 26, 2015 15:15
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Like Jordan or Egypt wants anything to do with this anymore, haha, they have their hands busy on their other borders too I'd say. Israel:  "Hey Jordan and Egypt, how about we take all the land, water, natural resources, roads, coastline and strategic locations and you take all the pissed off dirt poor people in the bombed out urban areas!"Jordan:  Egypt: 
DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Oct 26, 2015 |
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Oct 26, 2015 20:46
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Hong XiuQuan posted:What shouldn't happen is that a kid with absolutely 0 authority in the wider state is arrested and kept imprisoned for months without charge or trial. And, again you keep missing this, a guy who just wanted the corpse of his son has been arrested and imprisoned without trial after two Israeli courts ordered his release. I don't know if it was in Israel or the West Bank, but Meir Ettinger and a number of other suspected right-wing extremists are in administrative detention right now. It doesn't happen nearly as often to Jews, for sure, but administrative detention is used against anyone the state wants to lock up for a while without going through legal processes with things like "burdens of proof", and while it's heavily abused against Arabs and Palestinians, it's also used in occasional crackdowns on Jewish extremists since they tend to live in insular, supportive communities unlikely to cooperate with police.
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Oct 26, 2015 21:29
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Main Paineframe posted:I don't know if it was in Israel or the West Bank, but Meir Ettinger and a number of other suspected right-wing extremists are in administrative detention right now. It doesn't happen nearly as often to Jews, for sure, but administrative detention is used against anyone the state wants to lock up for a while without going through legal processes with things like "burdens of proof", and while it's heavily abused against Arabs and Palestinians, it's also used in occasional crackdowns on Jewish extremists since they tend to live in insular, supportive communities unlikely to cooperate with police. It was in be West Bank and despite Ettinger being a disgusting shitbag, the use of administrative detention over proper arrest, investigation etc is awful whoever the detainee is. In the case of Ettinger and his friends, I believe they were released some days later. Anyone got an update on the kids and the father?
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Oct 26, 2015 23:23
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So Netanyahu wants to take away the rights of all Palestinians living in East Jerusalem as retribution. He literally has no concept of irony does he?
Shimrra Jamaane fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Oct 26, 2015 |
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Oct 26, 2015 23:49
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Hong XiuQuan posted:It was in be West Bank and despite Ettinger being a disgusting shitbag, the use of administrative detention over proper arrest, investigation etc is awful whoever the detainee is. In the case of Ettinger and his friends, I believe they were released some days later. Anyone got an update on the kids and the father? I believe he got six months in detention and haven't heard of him being released early. It's definitely a fascist, totalitarian tactic - it's literally arbitrary detention of anyone in the West Bank using military occupation authority - but it's interesting in light of the fact that it's also widely complained about that settler terrorists like him rarely get arrested and charged with crimes. It's typically pinned on racism, but while that is certainly a factor, I believe the insularity of those communities makes evidence-gathering nearly impossible even if the police do feel like doing their jobs.
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Oct 27, 2015 00:05
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