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diamond dog posted:It doesn't mean anything by itself, and it might mean something else, but it may support the mirroring thing if she's trying to tell you that your left eye is bad rather than your right. Kaz and Venom are clearly deliniated as separate people though, Kaz is even training Solid Snake whilst Venom is being a warlord in South Africa, simiarly there are plenty of instances of people talking all round you and Venom talking to them so that should have been self-evidentally nonsense from the start. The problem is these theories focus on incredibly minor incidental details whilst ignoring huge great tracts of the plot which directly contradict them and end downplaying the actual writing and direction put in the game to dream up some inane ARG about how the game is actually taking place on an illuminati satelite in the year 400X because NPCs blink wrong. Even MGS2 didn't decieve the player that much and when it did it very loudly went 'GOTCHA!',even if any of these theories are of these 'canonically' true it would only make the game far worse for obfuscating central plot points behind ludicriously minor details and spending the near entire runtime of the game directly and pointlessly decieving you
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Oct 25, 2015 18:29
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Dapper_Swindler posted:That was what MGSV is missing. It just had no personality, no real quirks or development or humor or flirting. It was just boring characters in a boring story. Don't get me wrong it had hard hitting moments. But they didn't hit as hard because I was just shooting names on a list when I was clearing out the quarantine. I wasn't killing personalities, nothing about them made them feel human. I didn't have an alternate decision to make. There was no torture scene where I could have saved my soldiers. I was just forced through an emotionless simulation to check boxes on a list.
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Oct 25, 2015 18:44
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The lack of emotion is entirely purposeful, hinting at the alienation of the people on Mother Base, in both the Marxist sense and in the social sense. The player character is himself the best example of this, having been completely transformed into a means of It'd have been interesting if there were more conflict between Venom and Big Boss outside of the ending sequence. Chapter 2 does a reasonable job of showing the honeymoon effect wearing off and the grim reality of leading an outsider mercenary army setting in and Venom's evidentally still on-board with things building MG1 Outer Heaven but by the time he fights Solid Snake he seems to hate his visage, I guess it could just be 'poo poo I'm probably gonna die' but it seems like a missed trick never to see the disintergration of Venom
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Oct 25, 2015 18:58
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Considering all the stuff you see Medic and Boss do to other people--some with supernatural powers, parasite stuff, mechanical robo-stuff, whatever--I'd be really interested in seeing a modern rendition of Solid Snake vs. Venom / Boss. I wanna see David beat up his dad and his not-dad in hi rez.
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Oct 25, 2015 19:05
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Rest easy, kojima. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpTcu1oswJM
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Oct 25, 2015 19:22
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A Steampunk Gent posted:It'd have been interesting if there were more conflict between Venom and Big Boss outside of the ending sequence. Chapter 2 does a reasonable job of showing the honeymoon effect wearing off and the grim reality of leading an outsider mercenary army setting in and Venom's evidentally still on-board with things building MG1 Outer Heaven but by the time he fights Solid Snake he seems to hate his visage, I guess it could just be 'poo poo I'm probably gonna die' but it seems like a missed trick never to see the disintergration of Venom This was pretty much how I felt. I would have liked the twist a lot more had it been revealed earlier (say, the end of Chapter 1) and had there actually been some conflict or drama as a result of the twist. It's basically left entirely to the player to infer that, whoa, Big Boss is a real evil, hypocritical prick to do something like this to his best recruit without their consent considering how he was manipulated by superiors in Snake Eater. While I can understand leaving that up to the player, it just makes the ending a little flat. The fact that the real Big Boss only shows up in Phantom Pain for about 90 seconds is also pretty lame. I mean, you've got Africa in the game. It could have been reworked to have Africa be the post-twist setting with the real Big Boss setting up shop in South Africa or whatever. You could have done a lot with Venom feeling cheated or having the illusion of his Big Boss-ness start to erode.
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Oct 25, 2015 19:35
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As far as the mirroring stuff, what I got from it is that it basically represents you. You are Big Boss but not really as a mirror image is not a perfect copy, which is easily seen when you hold words up to a mirror. But does Venom Snake even hate Big Boss? I felt that him smashing the mirror was him smashing the illusion that he wasn't Big Boss.
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Oct 25, 2015 20:18
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the best part about Truth is that Real Big Boss still comes across as the coolest motherfucker ever despite doing all kinds of questionable poo poo.
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Oct 25, 2015 20:23
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Yeah, where does the Venom vs Big Boss stuff come from? The timeline says nothing about it. Venom and BB are a mutialistic relationship, symbolically portrayed by the vocal cord parasites. Venom is a look-a-like keeping the name and the legend alive for appearances while Big Boss does behind the scene poo poo. That's it.
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Oct 25, 2015 21:23
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Ausmund posted:Yeah, where does the Venom vs Big Boss stuff come from? The timeline says nothing about it. Venom and BB are a mutialistic relationship, symbolically portrayed by the vocal cord parasites. Venom is a look-a-like keeping the name and the legend alive for appearances while Big Boss does behind the scene poo poo. That's it. The two main sticking points are 1) The fact the whole operation was done without his consent and his prior life was forcibly taken away from him and 2) The final scene where he smashes his reflection in Outer Heaven Whilst their relationship is ambiguous, finding out his life was a lie and he's been left to do the grunt work and die for his namesake would be a good reason to become alienated from his Big Boss and is potentially implied by the ending events of the game. Their relationship isn't particularly elaborated on though which is why I think it'd have been interesting to do the reveal sooner and actually have some scenes between the two of them, at the very least it would give a clearer picture of how Venom ends up handling his role of Big Boss
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Oct 25, 2015 21:41
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I got the impression from Venom's grin that he was down
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Oct 25, 2015 21:45
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I mean it's kind of implied that real Big Boss sent Solid Snake to kill Venom, which seems kind of like a falling out.
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Oct 25, 2015 21:50
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Snak posted:I mean it's kind of implied that real Big Boss sent Solid Snake to kill Venom, which seems kind of like a falling out. Yes, he totally expected a greenhorn experience to succeed in killing his body double.
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Oct 25, 2015 21:55
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Ausmund posted:Yeah, where does the Venom vs Big Boss stuff come from? The timeline says nothing about it. Venom and BB are a mutialistic relationship, symbolically portrayed by the vocal cord parasites. Venom is a look-a-like keeping the name and the legend alive for appearances while Big Boss does behind the scene poo poo. That's it. As said, the game seems to suggest there will be a fallout between them (or at least, Venom will change his mind about the whole thing) but it is all left off-screen and implicit when it feel like it would make more sense thematically if Venom was filled with a burning revenge at the revelation that his face, identity, and life were stolen from him without his consent and we got to see it. The parallels between Venom and Skull Face are numerous - so much so that they even hinted it in the launch trailer where you have that awesome sequence of Big Boss slowly transforming from his MGS3 self, to Peace Walker, to Ground Zeroes, to Venom, to Demon Venom, and then Skull Face - but the game don't really do much with it even though it's apparent that Venom is to Big Boss as Skull Face is to Zero. If the game had been about showing the player how Skull Face came to be such a miserable creature filled with a lust for revenge by doing to the player what the world did to Skull Face, it would have been much more effective at conveying its theme of vengeance. Especially if Venom's vengeance had destroyed him, making the parallels with Moby Dick actually mean something. As it is, seeking revenge doesn't really cost any of the characters anything since the story ends with Diamond Dogs reigning supreme. The game relies on a blurb in the credits to describe Venom's fall, which is a poor substitute. There also would have been an effective player-character cohesion with Venom wanting revenge on Big Boss and the player wanting revenge on Big Boss for tricking them. It seems to me that the ending is so controversial because people feel betrayed by the twist (quite rightly so) but, rather than channeling that feeling of betrayal, the game just ends and so players direct their frustration and dissatisfaction at the game itself rather than Big Boss. In It For The Tank fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Oct 25, 2015 |
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Oct 25, 2015 21:56
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Snak posted:I mean it's kind of implied that real Big Boss sent Solid Snake to kill Venom, which seems kind of like a falling out. Seemed more implied to me that Venom did his job as a body double and made Solid Snake think he was dead while he had time to build up Zanzibar Land.
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Oct 25, 2015 21:56
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they spend a lot of time talking about how green Solid was when he infiltrated Venom's place to get into FOXHOUND he had to be pretty good in the first place, right?
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Oct 25, 2015 21:57
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Ausmund posted:Yeah, where does the Venom vs Big Boss stuff come from? The timeline says nothing about it. Venom and BB are a mutialistic relationship, symbolically portrayed by the vocal cord parasites. Venom is a look-a-like keeping the name and the legend alive for appearances while Big Boss does behind the scene poo poo. That's it. From Kaz right at the end. Venom threatens the world with nukes in outer heaven, Big Boss sends in Grey Fox to find out what the gently caress he is doing, Grey Fox reports back that venom has gone nuts (purely spec here) gets captured thus Big Boss sends in Solid (its not clear what is going on with kaz training solid and big boss in foxhound, i suspect both are true just kaz kept his final revenge secret and him and venom played along right to the end) to take out the final (once they are all disarmed in MGSV) nuke/metal gear only venom, in one last act of gently caress you, straight up pretends to be the real big boss in front of solid. its questionable if it fucks with the radio or not at that point he never reveals himself to be a copy, so knowing he is about to die goes all out just to gently caress over big boss. thus big boss has to then go and hide out in his nation of zanzibar land which he has been building in secret since 1984. i wouldnt be surprised if Kaz is the one who told cypher/patriots about ZL since ocelot tells him about it, that chat at the end with ocelot was pretty clear that Kaz was going to gently caress over big boss by training solid and using venom against him in revenge, kaz would have pushed venom into snapping which only made things worse when venom found out heard the tape from one giant hypocrite, the game tells us the medic had suspected the truth about who he was long before the tape he gets in 1995. the whole thing is pretty much kaz's last act of revenge against big boss for leaving him.
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Oct 25, 2015 21:59
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A Steampunk Gent posted:The two main sticking points are...
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Oct 25, 2015 21:59
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setafd posted:I got the impression from Venom's grin that he was down Yeah this kind of gets skipped over a lot but doesn't he kind of smirk before shattering the mirror? I got the impression that Venom was totally down with Big Bosses' "We are all Big Boss woo!" speech
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Oct 25, 2015 22:00
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Venom smashes the mirror after the subtle time skip. He smirks when he first hears the tape and learns that he is Big Boss now (presumably) in 1984. Then, (presumably) nine years later, he looks in the mirror again and sees what he has become as a result of Big Boss and smashes the mirror in a rage. But the ending is intentionally ambiguous and the mirror smash could be interpreted in different ways. Maybe he's exorcising his demon and accepting who he is, or maybe he's removing the divide between himself and the Big Boss in the mirror and becoming one being. Who knows.
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Oct 25, 2015 22:04
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There was a bug on the mirror.
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Oct 25, 2015 22:06
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Songbearer posted:Yeah this kind of gets skipped over a lot but doesn't he kind of smirk before shattering the mirror? I got the impression that Venom was totally down with Big Bosses' "We are all Big Boss woo!" speech He smirks after he listens to the tape about Big Boss telling him that they are one and the same. Then he shatters the mirror. I really never got that they were enemies.
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Oct 25, 2015 22:07
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he figures it out before the tape. we figure it out long before the tape that we are not big boss. the smirk was just a "oh you cocky poo poo, we're big boss? i'll show the world who big boss really is" and the smash is knowing that he is about to die and has to die for his and kaz's gently caress you big boss plan to succeed. there are no facts, just interpretations. it is unclear when he gets the tape though, it does have operation intrude 313 on it, Solid Snake's mission (you can see 313 in the key items menu) and not 312, which was Grey Fox's mission. which suggests he gets it right before snake invades outer heaven. Vikar Jerome fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Oct 25, 2015 |
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Oct 25, 2015 22:12
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It's all up to interpretation. Yes, Venom does smirk after listening to that tape, and yes, Venom does smash the mirror right after, but if you look closely, you'll see that he's wearing an Outer Heaven patch on his fatigues when he smashes the mirror. When he's just smirking, he's wearing the Diamond Dogs one, so there's an extremely subtle time skip there. There's also the matter of Gray Fox being sent in to investigate what's going on in Outer Heaven. Did Venom act on his own and shut out Big Boss? Or was it a ruse the two Big Bosses put on to appease the government? Same with Fox getting caught and imprisoned; did Venom detain Fox because he was an unwanted intruder? Or was it to protect their cover because it might look suspicious if Fox made it out without any hiccups. And what of Solid Snake? Why send in the most green operative to rescue the best one? Was he meant to be a sacrifice to show the power of Outer Heaven and Big Boss? Or was he really expected to succeed and take out the rogue phantom?
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Oct 25, 2015 22:18
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Really sucks that they never did anything with Grey Fox. I used to think he was so cool when I was a kid. Back when people were formulating theories about the identity of the player character, I assumed it was going to be Grey Fox.
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Oct 25, 2015 22:21
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Venom seems to enjoy being Big Boss, especially if you consider him as the player themselves who plays this game so they could become Big Boss. He breaks the mirror because he sees the bloody Demon snake and I guess he just denies the fact that he could be evil or some such. He is basically "fighting his inner demons". SolidSnakesBandana posted:Really sucks that they never did anything with Grey Fox. I used to think he was so cool when I was a kid. Back when people were formulating theories about the identity of the player character, I assumed it was going to be Grey Fox. They already did in PoOps, you don't want to know what they did with Gray Fox...
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Oct 25, 2015 22:32
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Bholder posted:PoOps The perfect description of that game.
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Oct 25, 2015 22:35
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A Steampunk Gent posted:Kaz and Venom are clearly deliniated as separate people though, Kaz is even training Solid Snake whilst Venom is being a warlord in South Africa, simiarly there are plenty of instances of people talking all round you and Venom talking to them so that should have been self-evidentally nonsense from the start. The problem is these theories focus on incredibly minor incidental details whilst ignoring huge great tracts of the plot which directly contradict them and end downplaying the actual writing and direction put in the game to dream up some inane ARG about how the game is actually taking place on an illuminati satelite in the year 400X because NPCs blink wrong. Even MGS2 didn't decieve the player that much and when it did it very loudly went 'GOTCHA!',even if any of these theories are of these 'canonically' true it would only make the game far worse for obfuscating central plot points behind ludicriously minor details and spending the near entire runtime of the game directly and pointlessly decieving you Again you're fixating on my weak plot guesses and not the evidence around them. Like picking on this eye thing when it was one supporting element in a list of like five or six things. Yes Kaz and Venom are ostensibly different people you facile idiot, that would be what they call a "twist". I like how you hedge your bets by saying the game would just be bad if your naive surface reading turns out to be false.
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Oct 25, 2015 22:38
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Vikar Jerome posted:he figures it out before the tape. we figure it out long before the tape that we are not big boss. the smirk was just a "oh you cocky poo poo, we're big boss? i'll show the world who big boss really is" Vikar Jerome posted:it is unclear when he gets the tape though, it does have operation intrude 313 on it, Solid Snake's mission (you can see 313 in the key items menu) and not 312, which was Grey Fox's mission. which suggests he gets it right before snake invades outer heaven. ChaosArgate posted:It's all up to interpretation. Yes, Venom does smirk after listening to that tape, and yes, Venom does smash the mirror right after, but if you look closely, you'll see that he's wearing an Outer Heaven patch on his fatigues when he smashes the mirror. When he's just smirking, he's wearing the Diamond Dogs one, so there's an extremely subtle time skip there.
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Oct 25, 2015 22:50
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In the first two Big Boss games, he's almost autistically honest and straightforward, and always assumes risks or burdens onto himself, never anyone else. But in V the original Big Boss becomes a manipulator who sacrifices and lies to other people to advance his own agenda. You can see that side of him emerging in GZ ("silence her before we're compromised") but here it's the only side of him. More than that, he gives up on the world, and on his own life within it, to curate and control it from outside. As you become him, he becomes someone else, a non-person who can't present himself honestly to the world anymore-- he moves toward being the disembodied, dishonest, radio voice that controls the narrative of the original Metal Gear. That's a pretty clear villain turn IMO even if it's not what i was expecting.diamond dog posted:Again you're fixating on my weak plot guesses and not the evidence around them. Like picking on this eye thing when it was one supporting element in a list of like five or six things. Yes Kaz and Venom are ostensibly different people you facile idiot, that would be what they call a "twist". There's a lot going on in this story and you're missing all of it. Trying to decode experiences that come from outside your own head til they perfectly match what was in there already is a genuinely bad way to live lol
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Oct 25, 2015 23:13
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Uh yeah it would be but that doesn't describe what I'm doing, it's just a thing you're saying because it sounds good. No, I'm not missing any of the basic story, I'm just attempting to follow the clear and clearly intentional clues that point beyond it and I'm not saying I'm certain about anything, unlike you chucklefucks. I can post a list of five inconsistencies with pictures and video evidence and you'll ignore all of them and latch onto a throwaway remark at the end because it's easier than thinking.
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Oct 25, 2015 23:24
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NO PLOT DISCUSSION ALLOWED IN THE MGSV PLOT THREAD
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Oct 25, 2015 23:29
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diamond dog posted:Uh yeah it would be but that doesn't describe what I'm doing, it's just a thing you're saying because it sounds good. No, I'm not missing any of the basic story, I'm just attempting to follow the clear and clearly intentional clues that point beyond it and I'm not saying I'm certain about anything, unlike you chucklefucks. I can post a list of five inconsistencies with pictures and video evidence and you'll ignore all of them and latch onto a throwaway remark at the end because it's easier than thinking. You're picking up on details so small they could well just be oversights, production errors or development team injokes and extrapolating wildly that the entire game is a ruse, and even then you can't provide anything which remotely ressembles a coherent reading. You call 'Venom is the medic' a naive, facile reading when that is what the plot spends the entirety of its endtime discussing, the purpose of final mission is literally to show 'VENOM IS THE MEDIC'. What does Venom being Kaz add to the story in any way and why is there such an immensely elaborate facade concealing that fact to player even to the very end? diamond dog posted:NO PLOT DISCUSSION ALLOWED IN THE MGSV PLOT THREAD You're getting laughed at for the same reason Kyoon posts do in D&D
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Oct 25, 2015 23:45
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Josuke Higashikata posted:The game had a full text dump pre-release, there are no secrets, we've seen all there is to see (including the nuke scene which is waiting for Konami to flip a switch). When facepunch forums found a bunch of what seemed like hidden / unused textures like The Boss's scar and a logo for Mosquito's FOB it seemed like there might be more but yeah it took about a month for all that content to show up. All but 1 has shown up in game now, "Chapter 3: peace" which is probably the intro for the nuke fob event, and we've seen the cutscene for completing the event
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Oct 26, 2015 00:57
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diamond dog posted:But they're really in the game and that's undeniable even if you don't like the bullshit conclusions that I'm explicitly presenting as things that I don't have total confidence in. I remember being a little kid on the early internet and all the exact same stuff for Ocarina of Time. Why does the tree in the lake have 3 scratch marks on it? etc
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Oct 26, 2015 00:59
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Modest Mao posted:I remember being a little kid on the early internet and all the exact same stuff for Ocarina of Time. Why does the tree in the lake have 3 scratch marks on it? etc if you beat the game three times without saving, you get to find the triforce and it takes you to the sacred land
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Oct 26, 2015 01:10
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A Steampunk Gent posted:You're getting laughed at for the same reason Kyoon posts do in D&D I didn't call the medic boss thing naive and facile, I called YOU a facile idiot, and naive is an accurate adjective for describing basic surface readings. Every single time you quote me you mischaracterise what I'm saying, why? Why are you consistently ignoring the content of my posts and taking the bitch route?
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Oct 26, 2015 01:11
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I think the only way to top the gameplay of this game is to have a real battlefield to work in. knocking out a russian and dropping him in a Mujahadeen base, causing the mujahadeen to focus on him so you can sneak past. Tricking the AI to rerout a truck into enemy lines etc would have been the best. Also having the bases and empty area in between being more dynamic with front lines changing, seeing the russians fortify and call in mortars / airstrikes / tanks on missions or in open world would have made it like 10x better. Also once again being able to have one side recognize you as an ally if you help them enough. I can only imagine that was the idea originally.
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Oct 26, 2015 01:15
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the real secret of mgsv is that when snake met his weird clone dad at the end of mgs4 he was meeting medic who was just super happy to have been brought back to life
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Oct 26, 2015 01:16
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Modest Mao posted:I remember being a little kid on the early internet and all the exact same stuff for Ocarina of Time. Why does the tree in the lake have 3 scratch marks on it? etc Everyone does, Kojima talked about it, which is why I think all that stuff in this game is intentional hoaxes. Like in the Shining Lights mission there's a barricaded door, which has scratches on the floor that make it look like it's been opened SOMETIMES. Check it out, restart that level a couple times: sometimes those scratches are there, sometimes they aren't. Occasionally the lights in that area start yellow, usually red. It's intentional. The Honey Bee area is giant gag centred around dodgy out-of-place cliff added to block a path to a weird mountain in the distance; if you fire your rocket fist past it you can see a climbing crack, and in the cave below it there's a "bad corner" in which an exposed quad from the cliff pokes down past the ceiling and is blocked off out of view by out-of-place rocks. It looks like one thing, but I'm sure it's a gag.
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Oct 26, 2015 01:16
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