|
I really like the Craft system itself, because it gets dedicated crafters to be prolific in ways that add to the story instead of just passively accumulating gear for the party. I really enjoyed running for it and the Twilight in the game I ran really enjoyed using it. Good God though the Craft charm tree makes me never want to actually play an artisan.
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 17:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 06:19 |
|
|
Roadie posted:You have to do at least one of those things to get any craft points from it, but you don't have to do all three, and "I am making a bunch of arrows or other basic equipment for my army to defend (place I care about)" could certainly fulfill the second and the third bullet points. You do not get 100,000,000 silver xp for making a bunch of arrows. At most, you get 3.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 17:08
|
|
|
Thug Lessons posted:You do not get 100,000,000 silver xp for making a bunch of arrows. At most, you get 3. Why?
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 17:13
|
|
|
Roadie posted:Why? Well the most obvious reason is that you don't get xp per product produced, you get xp per basic objective achieved on a project. While it's theoretically possible for an ST to let you sit there rolling 10d10 over and over for the purposes of grinding crafting xp it's never going to happen in real life, and any sane ST is going to just say that producing a bushel of arrows constitutes a single project, maybe a major one if he's being extremely generous.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 17:16
|
|
|
Thug Lessons posted:Well the most obvious reason is that you don't get xp per product produced, you get xp per basic objective achieved on a project. While it's theoretically possible for an ST to let you sit there rolling 10d10 over and over for the purposes of grinding crafting xp it's never going to happen in real life, and any sane ST is going to just say that producing a bushel of arrows constitutes a single project, maybe a major one if he's being extremely generous. "Because houseruling" still doesn't change that the book lists making individual arrows as basic projects. Even putting that aside, not using the specific case of making a bajillion arrows, it remains that any crafter can reliably expect to rack up bajillions of silver points from regular basic projects that can be finished as a side note to other scenes, and with Sublime Transference that makes any kind of point tracking irrelevant.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 17:17
|
|
|
Roadie posted:"Because houseruling" still doesn't change that the book lists making individual arrows as basic projects. Then making a bushel is a major project and that's all you get. Next caller. quote:Even putting that aside, not using the specific case of making a bajillion arrows, it remains that any crafter can reliably expect to rack up bajillions of silver points from regular basic projects that can be finished as a side note to other scenes, and with Sublime Transference that makes any kind of point tracking irrelevant. Working as intended, if you use Craft to achieve useful objectives in every scene then you deserve xp every scene.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 17:21
|
|
|
I think the people who don't like the Crafting system largely either don't understand it or don't actually want to play crafters. This is again distinct from the charm tree which is insulting garbage.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 17:30
|
|
|
Attorney at Funk posted:I think the people who don't like the Crafting system largely either don't understand it or don't actually want to play crafters. This is again distinct from the charm tree which is insulting garbage. I want to play a crafter. I don't want to gently caress around fletching arrows and then having to give dramatic speeches about why the arrow is so meaningful as a mandated speedbump every time I want to do something that actually matters to anyone. At least one multi-party roleplay group I'm in almost unanimously shares this opinion.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 17:33
|
|
|
I understand the fear that players are just going to whittle a dildo every single scene to get crafting xp. The thing is that because of how basic objectives work, this is simply not a problem unless you have an ST that tells you there's an unlimited and unquenchable market for whittled dildos.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 17:34
|
|
|
spectralent posted:I want to play a crafter. I don't want to gently caress around fletching arrows and then having to give dramatic speeches about why the arrow is so meaningful as a mandated speedbump every time I want to do something that actually matters to anyone. At least one multi-party roleplay group I'm in almost unanimously shares this opinion. That's not what the crafting system actually asks you to do and treating it that way suggests the basic disengagement I'm describing. It's the difference between wanting to be a crafter and wanting to have crafted stuff.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 17:36
|
|
|
Attorney at Funk posted:I think the people who don't like the Crafting system largely either don't understand it or don't actually want to play crafters. This is again distinct from the charm tree which is insulting garbage. My biggest complaint about the crafting system itself (rather than the morass of Charms it's inextricably intertwined with since it was written in such a way that you need them to actually build any significant Artifacts in any reasonable time) is that for people who don't feel like inserting a basic project into every scene ahead of time to stock up silver points, The Stuff That You Actually Care About Crafting ends up gated behind basic project make-work. spectralent posted:I want to play a crafter. I don't want to gently caress around fletching arrows and then having to give dramatic speeches about why the arrow is so meaningful as a mandated speedbump every time I want to do something that actually matters to anyone. At least one multi-party roleplay group I'm in almost unanimously shares this opinion. Yeah, basically this.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 17:38
|
|
|
Fletching a million arrows won't work because of the rule at the beginning that says "if following a rule would give you a bone-headed result, don't use it."
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 17:39
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:Fletching a million arrows won't work because of the rule at the beginning that says "if following a rule would give you a bone-headed result, don't use it." I consider "now I have ten billion silver points and never have to worry about needing silver points ever again" to be less bone-headed than "I want to make a fabulous set of armor as a gift to this king but first I need to whittle a bunch of wooden swords to stock up enough silver points for it".
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 17:42
|
|
|
Attorney at Funk posted:That's not what the crafting system actually asks you to do and treating it that way suggests the basic disengagement I'm describing. It's the difference between wanting to be a crafter and wanting to have crafted stuff. No, no, I am totally fine with making, say, a Volcano Cutter being an involved and serious process that requires some engagement with the narrative. I can even see a role for something like crafting banquets or creating individual swords. The issue is crafting begins the involved system of tracking things at a level where, in a game like exalted, I feel the default rule should in fact be that you can just say you made those last night so hell yeah you have a pile of arrowheads or a new chair or something. I can see a story about making an artifact that'll change the world. I can see a scene about about making someone a new sword for a down-on-his-luck gladiator. I can't see any point to tracking things when you're shoeing horses, cooking meals, or fletching arrows. EDIT: Yeah, as people are saying, non-charm related things aren't overly terrible, the system just comes into play too early so the basic level of meaningful action... isn't. It is a cool theme that crafters are constantly making stuff, but this should be an assumed perk rather than a requirement because tracking it and working towards it is busywork. Likewise, you should be able to play someone who just rocks up and busts out a suit of plate for someone every now and again, too. An artifact gate is fine. A gate to cooking a large meal is ridiculous. spectralent fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Oct 26, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 17:42
|
|
|
Roadie posted:I consider "now I have ten billion silver points and never have to worry about needing silver points ever again" to be less bone-headed than "I want to make a fabulous set of armor as a gift to this king but first I need to whittle a bunch of wooden swords to stock up enough silver points for it". Is that really going to happen in practice once you've gotten the cookie clicker started up? It seems like you'd only run into that problem if you want to finish a set of armor when you first start the game, and in that case the sensible thing to do is for the ST to just spot you your first major project.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 17:48
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:Is that really going to happen in practice once you've gotten the cookie clicker started up? It seems like you'd only run into that problem if you want to finish a set of armor when you first start the game, and in that case the sensible thing to do is for the ST to just spot you your first major project. If I don't feel like making basic projects at every opportunity to stock up points, it seems like it would be destined to happen sooner or later as soon as what few silver points I have run out.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 17:54
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:Fletching a million arrows won't work because of the rule at the beginning that says "if following a rule would give you a bone-headed result, don't use it." But enough about running Exalted Second Edition...
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 18:02
|
|
|
I mean the basic issue is the rules for XP dictate things, to be really simplistic, have to actually matter. This clashes with a tier of crafting which can be summarised as "poo poo that doesn't matter". For a game that has an ammo save (good!) telling everyone to track how many horseshoes they made is bad, and then demanding that we give screentime to horseshoes is just... Why? It's dumb, it's probably on the same scale as keeping BP/XP which is amazingly dumb. EDIT: Actually I can't think of a single place exalted tracks anything on the level of arrows and individual meals; we have resources, not money; survival checks, not rations; ammo saves, not ammo. It's very backwards. spectralent fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Oct 26, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 18:06
|
|
|
For one thing, basic projects can only take a few minutes to complete, making it perfectly possible to conceive of them and complete them in the same scene. Just by using your craft ability to solve problems in normal gameplay - mending a cart you pass on the road, cooking a meal for your friends, fixing up someone's porch as they tell you their troubles - you get free silver XP. The things you're making with basic projects are pretty much unimportant by themselves, as you point out - it's the story of why your character makes them that's the source of interest. Second, even a minor investment in crafts charms speeds this up greatly. Brass Scales Falling (Craft 3 E1) gives you a free silver xp for each 10 you roll on *any* non-excellency boosted craft roll. Red Anvils Ringing (Craft 4 E1) makes each objective give you 3 rather than 2 xp. Craftsman Needs No Tools (Craft 3 E1) allows you to complete basic and major projects in seconds. Not to mention all the charms that just give you free XP 1/day or 1/story. Essentially, for any exalt that's at all invested in craft basic projects aren't necessary beyond roleplaying and spur-of-the-moment things.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 18:23
|
|
|
Attorney at Funk posted:I really like the Craft system itself, because it gets dedicated crafters to be prolific in ways that add to the story instead of just passively accumulating gear for the party. I really enjoyed running for it and the Twilight in the game I ran really enjoyed using it. Good God though the Craft charm tree makes me never want to actually play an artisan. I keep almost, almost coming around to the actual existing Crafts tree because I can see the appeal in there being as much "get better and better and better at crafting" stuff to buy as there is "get better and better and better at combat" stuff, such that it's as hard and therefore impressive to master the former as the latter and it's similarly impossible to make a casual or even middling investment and immediately be top-tier.... but the thing is that the combat resolution system involves interacting with other characters and making decisions on the fly, while the crafting resolution system (as in, the actual procedure of making extended rolls and tallying their results) does not. It'd be a lot less fun to be a dedicated combat character if 60% of combat charms did nothing but apply dice tricks to your attack rolls and the other 40% gave you extra motes to spend on the former.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 18:23
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:It'd be a lot less fun to be a dedicated combat character if 60% of combat charms did nothing but apply dice tricks to your attack rolls and the other 40% gave you extra motes to spend on the former. This is certainly true. If there was a role for others to play in the crafting system beyond saying 'Wow that chair really strengthens my love for you, have lots of money' at the end of the process it'd be a lot better. Might move it away from a Randian ubermensch bootstrapping themselves to utopia too if there was a strong benefit to having others help out.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 18:27
|
|
|
Man, I have the PDF and I haven't even opened it past page 5 yet. Whenever I try to flip through it I feel gross, like I'm getting cold-called by an ex girlfriend who shat on my couch. I think I really am just... done. I didn't expect this.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 18:29
|
|
|
Flavivirus posted:This is certainly true. If there was a role for others to play in the crafting system beyond saying 'Wow that chair really strengthens my love for you, have lots of money' at the end of the process it'd be a lot better. Might move it away from a Randian ubermensch bootstrapping themselves to utopia too if there was a strong benefit to having others help out. No, "wow I really appreciate this chair" is the good part. The bad part is that except for like... two or three charms total, every single Crafts charm is either Excellent Strike or that "once per scene you can do a full Melee Excellency" high-level Charm whose name I forget. They're all this abstracted more-successes mush, but while successes rolled on a Melee attack have a pretty obvious and visceral impact on the scene in which they're rolled, successes rolled on a Crafts action either do absolutely nothing or indicate you're done. Crafts really should've been broken up like Performance is and the capacity to create artifacts of different kind should've lived in different places in the Charm tree rather than being a generic task hypothetically achievable by any character in the game but practically impossible for anyone who doesn't have six hundred total dice to roll. Like, imagine a branch of the Crafts tree for making weapons, and another for making automata, or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 18:33
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:The bad part is that except for like... two or three charms total, every single Crafts charm is either Excellent Strike or that "once per scene you can do a full Melee Excellency" high-level Charm whose name I forget. They're all this abstracted more-successes mush, but while successes rolled on a Melee attack have a pretty obvious and visceral impact on the scene in which they're rolled, successes rolled on a Crafts action either do absolutely nothing or indicate you're done. To elaborate, there are Craft Charms that: - reroll 10s - double 9s - grant non-Charm successes and dice - grant non-Charm dice based on your existing successes - grant non-Charm dice based on your existing successes from non-Charm dice - grant non-Charm successes based on your existing successes - convert dice to 10s based on threes of a kind in your roll - discount Excellency use - increase your dice cap - add an extra roll to a Craft project - add more extra rolls to a Craft project - give extra Craft points for repairing things - give extra Craft points once per day - give extra Craft points when you roll 10s with an Excellency - give extra Craft points when you roll 10s without an Excellency - give extra Craft points when check all the checkboxes on projects - give extra Craft points when you do extra good on projects - give extra Craft points when you make basic projects - give extra Craft points based on your project slots - discount Craft point costs for projects - discount Craft point costs for project slots I probably missed some. This is leaving aside that to be an ideal crafter you should also have Larceny 5 so you can take Fate-Shifting Solar Arete as soon as you hit Essence 3, since having an average of 0.7 successes instead of 0.5 successes per die before applying any actual Craft Charms (and then compounding that with the reroll 10s Charm) is a tremendous enhancement. Roadie fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Oct 26, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 18:38
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:No, "wow I really appreciate this chair" is the good part. Oh yeah, wasn't saying the chair-appreciation is bad - I just wish there was support for bouncing ideas off people, having someone be your muse, getting grad students in to help out your projects, and so on. As for the charms themselves, that's a fair assessment. My definite favourite craft charms are things like Vice Miracle Technique or Dual Magnus Prana - things that give you new capabilities, rather than increasing your ability to use the base system better.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 18:44
|
|
|
Flavivirus posted:Oh yeah, wasn't saying the chair-appreciation is bad - I just wish there was support for bouncing ideas off people, having someone be your muse, getting grad students in to help out your projects, and so on. And I think you can literally count those on one hand. Maaaaybe two?
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 18:51
|
|
|
Attorney at Funk posted:I think the people who don't like the Crafting system largely either don't understand it or don't actually want to play crafters. This is again distinct from the charm tree which is insulting garbage. I like the crafting system, but I think the basic/major split is foolish
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 18:53
|
|
|
I kinda wish the system encouraged you to do things like fix some guy's wagon or cook meals and such, rather than requiring you to do that poo poo if you wanted to do anything more complicated than that. Rewarded you for doing it, rather than punishing you for not doing it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 18:56
|
|
|
Nihnoz posted:I like the crafting system, but I think the basic/major split is foolish Yeah, this. Zereth posted:I kinda wish the system encouraged you to do things like fix some guy's wagon or cook meals and such, rather than requiring you to do that poo poo if you wanted to do anything more complicated than that. Rewarded you for doing it, rather than punishing you for not doing it. This would also be great. spectralent fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Oct 26, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 18:56
|
|
|
Zereth posted:I kinda wish the system encouraged you to do things like fix some guy's wagon or cook meals and such, rather than requiring you to do that poo poo if you wanted to do anything more complicated than that. Rewarded you for doing it, rather than punishing you for not doing it. This isn't really a tenable distinction. Are you rewarded for wearing armor, or punished for not wearing armor?
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 19:04
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:This isn't really a tenable distinction. Are you rewarded for wearing armor, or punished for not wearing armor?
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 19:19
|
|
|
Zereth posted:I'd say rewarded, since the system doesn't entirely bar you from participating in fights more serious than a bar brawl if you're not wearing armor. I would say different, because absent very specific build choices armor represents a straightforward and costless enhancement to combat effectiveness such that everyone defaults to wearing it and eschewing it just straight up puts you below par. It's like you aren't exactly "rewarded" for maxing out your Dexterity stat - that's just the status quo the system creates, whether intentionally or otherwise. You're not rewarded for making withering attacks, either. That's just... what you do. The game is set up to make you do that.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 19:22
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:I keep almost, almost coming around to the actual existing Crafts tree because I can see the appeal in there being as much "get better and better and better at crafting" stuff to buy as there is "get better and better and better at combat" stuff, such that it's as hard and therefore impressive to master the former as the latter and it's similarly impossible to make a casual or even middling investment and immediately be top-tier.... but the thing is that the combat resolution system involves interacting with other characters and making decisions on the fly, while the crafting resolution system (as in, the actual procedure of making extended rolls and tallying their results) does not. It'd be a lot less fun to be a dedicated combat character if 60% of combat charms did nothing but apply dice tricks to your attack rolls and the other 40% gave you extra motes to spend on the former. The Melee tree is obviously a lot better about this than the Craft tree but honestly it'd be easier to convince me that the Melee tree is on the wrong side of the line than that the Craft tree is on the right side. Nihnoz posted:I like the crafting system, but I think the basic/major split is foolish Churning out fiddly poo poo and having that fiddly poo poo be the main way I connect to other characters and the setting is my favorite part of playing an artificer character. If I wanted a fun way to accumulate artifacts I'd just be a tomb raider.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 19:24
|
|
|
Attorney at Funk posted:The Melee tree is obviously a lot better about this than the Craft tree but honestly it'd be easier to convince me that the Melee tree is on the wrong side of the line than that the Craft tree is on the right side. It's not just that Melee is lighter on dice tricks in general, but that those tricks are applied in strategic and interactive ways in the middle of a situation that isn't actually under your full control. It's possible to contrive a situation in which a solar artificer doesn't make every single crafting roll in the privacy of their workshop while activating every single enhancer charm at once, but it'd be annoying and dickish to actually do so as more than a one-off gimmick. Even if you did, all you'd really be doing is capping how many motes or WP that artificer was able or willing to spend (because they're in enemy territory and need to avoid anima displays or whatever) - they're still stuck in their basement running on a hamster wheel. Deciding whether to use Excellent Strike is interesting even if the answer is almost always "yes" because you fight with and/or against other people but when you craft you craft alone.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 19:37
|
|
|
Excellent Strike is a great charm.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 19:42
|
|
|
It's sick as hell.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 19:43
|
|
|
Craft is neat because I can eventually make a character who generated 90 successes on one roll and I like big numbers. It also sucks because unlike with literally every other charm tree, if you want to focus on it, you can barely afford to focus elsewhere. Melee has like 12 charms you really want. Craft has like 30. Yeah they're just dice tricks but they are useful dice tricks.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 20:01
|
|
|
Thug Lessons posted:Excellent Strike is a great charm. Use it on every attack.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 20:09
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:It's not just that Melee is lighter on dice tricks in general, but that those tricks are applied in strategic and interactive ways in the middle of a situation that isn't actually under your full control. It's possible to contrive a situation in which a solar artificer doesn't make every single crafting roll in the privacy of their workshop while activating every single enhancer charm at once, but it'd be annoying and dickish to actually do so as more than a one-off gimmick. Even if you did, all you'd really be doing is capping how many motes or WP that artificer was able or willing to spend (because they're in enemy territory and need to avoid anima displays or whatever) - they're still stuck in their basement running on a hamster wheel. Deciding whether to use Excellent Strike is interesting even if the answer is almost always "yes" because you fight with and/or against other people but when you craft you craft alone. The Melee tree is obviously a lot better about this than the Craft tree but honestly it'd be easier to convince me that the Melee tree is on the wrong side of the line than that the Craft tree is on the right side. you might notice that's the exact post you responded to. the reason for that is that nothing you said responded to anything in the post you quoted at all so I suspect you didn't read it and wanted to try to trick you into reading it one more time
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 20:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 06:19 |
|
|
Bedlamdan posted:Use it on every attack. That's easier to say when you don't have like 7 motes to your name towards the end of a grueling battle against an opponent who's still standing. Attorney at Funk posted:The Melee tree is obviously a lot better about this than the Craft tree but honestly it'd be easier to convince me that the Melee tree is on the wrong side of the line than that the Craft tree is on the right side. I'm saying that it's not even prevalence of dice tricks that's the problem, and in fact would go as far as to say that Melee without any dice tricks would be worse than it is now. It's not that dice tricks are bad, it's that even the fun of performing them can't save you from how one-dimensional, low-risk, and non-interactive the basic crafting project resolution system is.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 20:35
|
|