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Did anyone mention how in the first level of Goldeneye in the dam there is a building in the far back of the lake? You can see it with your sniper rifle and it used to be you could take a boat to it but they took that out of the game due to time constraints. You can still get there and look at it with a Gameshark, I did it once and it was neat! This is the same loving thing. diamond dog posted:The Morpho crash at the climax of Ground Zeroes, why do we see it multiple times in this game? DaveKap fucked around with this message at 11:45 on Oct 26, 2015 |
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Oct 26, 2015 11:43
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MeatwadIsGod posted:Seeing as how there are poo poo tons of cassette tapes in this game, yeah, it was a little disappointing that there were only a few to set the stage in Africa and Afghanistan. What's there is really accurate, but the tapes talk about UNITA, MPLA, Joseph Mobutu, etc. as if the player is already familiar with them. I can get behind the fact that Venom might already be familiar with them since a lot of these players were around in the MSF days, but it would have been nice to have more of the geopolitical ramblings MGS is famous for. I was kind of disappointed when I got to Afghanistan and Ocelot says how there are no civilians anywhere.
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Oct 26, 2015 12:32
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DaveKap posted:Because of graphics shaders causing discoloration. If a programmer doesn't copy-paste the shader from scene to scene, things like this happen. edit: wait no what am I saying I don't care. Shaders are tools for achieving a look that you want, in a game that looks this good they aren't just being haphazardly tossed around. It could be a random error* but you could say that about anything, everything, it's not helpful. *(in an important cutscene and which coincidentally happens to resonate with the colour/language/perception themes and also justifies a major colour choice oddity spanning two games and which also by fluke landed on the right colour) diamond dog fucked around with this message at 12:54 on Oct 26, 2015 |
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Oct 26, 2015 12:34
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Aren't MGS games usually much more obvious about that stuff though? I feel like there would be lines specific to color perception in regards to language.
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Oct 26, 2015 15:21
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zelah posted:Aren't MGS games usually much more obvious about that stuff though? I feel like there would be lines specific to color perception in regards to language. MGS games make sure you know when a big twist happens because while Kojima does like his crazy twists that challenge your perceptions and assumptions about the rest of the plot, he cares more about using them to explore larger themes instead of just pulling a Shyamalan and then calling it day. Venom Snake not being Big Boss probably wasn't meant to be a huge surprise- they hint at it more than any of the other larger plot twists in the series, and it's at least the third time this plot idea has even been used in MGS (The first two being Ocelot's theory about the "Solid Snake Simulation" in MGS2, and Big Boss being shaped into Che Guevara 2.0 in Peace Walker by Coldman). I think instead Kojima is more interested in why someone would manufacture such a figure, and the effects this figure would have on others. What is the psychological effect of believing you're fighting in the army of the "legendary soldier", and is believing you're fighting alongside truly empowering? What is the psychological impact of believing that Big Boss himself is coming to potentially kill you, if you're random mercenary soldier number three that has been stationed at the Nova Braga Airport on a particularly unlucky day (Several soldiers say they're scared shitless, btw.)? What does being Big Boss even mean, as a symbol? It's yet another way Kojima is looking at perception vs reality. Raxivace fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Oct 26, 2015 |
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Oct 26, 2015 16:33
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:I would just like to re-post some stuff Snak once said here, and how it is so much better than the plot we got. Snak for President. Aww thanks. Since it's been reposted so much, I feel the need to point out that I hosed up some timelines there. For some reason I mistakenly said that the Shadow Moses Incident took place in 1995, when it actually took place in 2005 (this was just a brain fart on my part). I think adjusting my theories for this fact will actually make them work better, though...
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Oct 26, 2015 17:24
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Guys, I have figured this out! None of this is real because it's actually a video game
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Oct 26, 2015 17:33
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Bholder posted:Guys, I have figured this out! No, that was MGS2?
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Oct 26, 2015 17:34
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Yeah I don't know why Kojima has this reputation as some trolling, "gotcha!" mastermind. None of his games attempt to trick the player like that. There are twists, but the twists are in service of immediately obvious themes / statements that he's been exploring for 30 years, and the cards are all on the table afterward. Nothing Kojima has done supports the idea that he's got some double-secret-real-twist thing going on, and of course the people with these theories never can answer the simple question: why? To what end? The game (and the series as a whole) has plenty of textual / subtextual meat as it is, with very interesting things to say about mimetic legacy / aesthetic distance / the interactivity of games themselves. Not a single one of these theories offers up anything interesting to say, and most of them require you to cast aside much more interesting interpretations of the game to even buy into their premise - it's just "wouldn't it be crazy if...?" I am genuinely interested in what kind of a reading people are getting from these theories - what, beyond the giant web of twists and turns for the sake of twists and turns, would the game be trying to say? Why are people so eager to "outsmart" games / books / movies / shows instead of engaging with what they are actually presenting?
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Oct 26, 2015 17:45
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:Why are people so eager to "outsmart" games / books / movies / shows instead of engaging with what they are actually presenting? I blame poo poo like Cinema Sins.
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Oct 26, 2015 17:48
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:Yeah I don't know why Kojima has this reputation as some trolling, "gotcha!" mastermind. None of his games attempt to trick the player like that. There are twists, but the twists are in service of immediately obvious themes / statements that he's been exploring for 30 years, and the cards are all on the table afterward. Nothing Kojima has done supports the idea that he's got some double-secret-real-twist thing going on, and of course the people with these theories never can answer the simple question: why? To what end? I agree with you. My theories were formulated during my first playthrough as what I expected to be revealed in chapter 2 as part of the game's themes. They are not something I thought up afterwards as a super-secret double twist. As I said before, MGS2 was my first exposure to the franchise, so that has somewhat colored my expectations of MGS games.
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Oct 26, 2015 17:51
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Finally http://www.nexusmods.com/metalgearsolidvtpp/mods/125/
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Oct 26, 2015 17:57
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Snak posted:I agree with you. My theories were formulated during my first playthrough as what I expected to be revealed in chapter 2 as part of the game's themes. They are not something I thought up afterwards as a super-secret double twist. I think everybody had their own pet theories for what was going to happen when they started playing, and the trailers / marketing pretty much encouraged it. It's not even that Kojima couldn't / wouldn't write a game with those sorts of twists - he just wouldn't hide it. And MGS2 might just be the most important game in terms of really crystallizing the themes / narrative techniques of the series, so there's nothing wrong with filtering the games that came afterward through that lens, imo.
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Oct 26, 2015 18:05
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Detective No. 27 posted:I blame poo poo like Cinema Sins. did you see the mad max one? i almost punched my monitor for real about 30 seconds in. can you block poo poo on youtube? i've reported that channel for abuse but it's still there.
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Oct 26, 2015 18:06
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:Nothing Kojima has done supports the idea that he's got some double-secret-real-twist thing going on, and of course the people with these theories never can answer the simple question: why? To what end? Remember the time he tried the whole ARG stuff with Moby Dick Studios? The man was actually bummed that people figured it out within hours. I can't reconcile this man with the master troll that somehow hid a clue to a missing videogame chapter in the depths of Hell's Kitchen.
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Oct 26, 2015 18:06
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:Yeah I don't know why Kojima has this reputation as some trolling, "gotcha!" mastermind. None of his games attempt to trick the player like that. There are twists, but the twists are in service of immediately obvious themes / statements that he's been exploring for 30 years, and the cards are all on the table afterward. Nothing Kojima has done supports the idea that he's got some double-secret-real-twist thing going on, and of course the people with these theories never can answer the simple question: why? To what end? i think the trolling thing came from remembering the trailers for mgs2 but mostly from the whole moby dick studios, joakim thing and i think P.T? tho that wasn't really a troll. edit: ^beat. :/
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Oct 26, 2015 18:09
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Yeah, the plot twists run pretty deep in MGS. Liquid being Solid's brother reveal in MGS, all of MGS2, EVA being a "bad guy" and Ocelot turning out to be a good guy and the Boss turning out to be loyal and not a traitor in MGS3. But all the twists are heavily telegraphed and, with the exception of Raiden being the real protagonist of MGS2, he's never successfully hid a twist from the player.
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Oct 26, 2015 18:12
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Full Battle Rattle posted:The only thing left is nuke armament/disarmament. When that happens, nobody knows. Everyone's just waiting for Konami to hit the switch.
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Oct 26, 2015 18:19
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Vikar Jerome posted:did you see the mad max one? i almost punched my monitor for real about 30 seconds in. can you block poo poo on youtube? i've reported that channel for abuse but it's still there. If only some group of individuals could program a set of algorithms that selectively filters the content put up on youtube to control what information we pass down from generation to generation.
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Oct 26, 2015 18:20
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:Yeah I don't know why Kojima has this reputation as some trolling, "gotcha!" mastermind. None of his games attempt to trick the player like that. There are twists, but the twists are in service of immediately obvious themes / statements that he's been exploring for 30 years, and the cards are all on the table afterward. Nothing Kojima has done supports the idea that he's got some double-secret-real-twist thing going on, and of course the people with these theories never can answer the simple question: why? To what end? It's mgs2. The promotional material lied so people constantly think it's 11th dimensional chess despite Kojima usually doing a piss poor job of hiding his twists.
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Oct 26, 2015 18:20
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I dont know why people try to take MGS plots seriously. They are all bottom barrel anime stupid. They just do it in a self-aware way so its funny.
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Oct 26, 2015 18:27
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Sylink posted:I dont know why people try to take MGS plots seriously. They are all bottom barrel anime stupid. They just do it in a self-aware way so its funny. Well, what I have found is that many people are unable to infer things without it outright being told to them, which Metal Gear does in spades... until Phantom Pain where people are upset that they didn't see Big Boss turn into an rear end in a top hat.
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Oct 26, 2015 18:42
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blackguy32 posted:Well, what I have found is that many people are unable to infer things without it outright being told to them, which Metal Gear does in spades... until Phantom Pain where people are upset that they didn't see Big Boss turn into an rear end in a top hat. If anything MGSV is Kojima actually trying to be relatively understated for once. He's still Kojima so it's not like he made a Terrence Malick movie or anything, but still. I applaud both him and the cool game he made for it.
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Oct 26, 2015 18:46
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:Yeah I don't know why Kojima has this reputation as some trolling, "gotcha!" mastermind. None of his games attempt to trick the player like that. There are twists, but the twists are in service of immediately obvious themes / statements that he's been exploring for 30 years, and the cards are all on the table afterward. Nothing Kojima has done supports the idea that he's got some double-secret-real-twist thing going on, and of course the people with these theories never can answer the simple question: why? To what end? Because thats whats "in" now. a couple years ago in was being a angry, yelly guy who yells "gently caress this game", now its being a enlightened hipster who must find every possible critical "critique" they can to sound like the smartest person in the room and allegedly enlighten the world. there are good ones like super bunny hop who are great and have dry humor and actualy have realy good reviews and insights about games. a there are terrible ones like jonathan mcantosh who spend there time crying that video games have violence in them and should all be walking simulators and get triggered at everything, or you get the even worse ones like that PBS dude or that game theory person who just make poo poo up to sound smart and steal ideas. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Oct 26, 2015 |
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Oct 26, 2015 18:59
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Sylink posted:I dont know why people try to take MGS plots seriously. They are all bottom barrel anime stupid. They just do it in a self-aware way so its funny. If people like you had their way, every movie would just be Transformers. Just turn off your brain and watch the pretty explosions! After all it's just a <media>.
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Oct 26, 2015 18:59
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Vikar Jerome posted:i think the trolling thing came from remembering the trailers for mgs2 but mostly from the whole moby dick studios, joakim thing and i think P.T? tho that wasn't really a troll. I mean I kind of get that, but I think there's a pretty big difference between marketing, which is an almost inherently deceptive enterprise, and the actual games themselves. Especially when that promotional trickery kind of directly ties into the themes the game ends up exploring. MGS2 had a good reason to hide the Raiden reveal from the player, but once everything plays out in the game, it's all there for you to see and chew on. I think Kojima wants people to go into his games wondering what the hell is going on, but he always gives you an answer. Some of it probably just stems from some people being unable to accept that the game is over, or that the story he told isn't the one they wanted. I just think it's a really good game that does some very cool, original stuff with its self-aware approach to storytelling, and that's a lot more interesting than all the theories floating around. It's not that I don't see the allure of those theories, and people seem to be having fun tearing the game apart for clues, it's just that there isn't anything compelling about the interpretations that result from it.
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Oct 26, 2015 18:59
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:If people like you had their way, every movie would just be Transformers. Just turn off your brain and watch the pretty explosions! After all it's just a <media>.
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Oct 26, 2015 19:05
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A plot can be absurd / tonally dissonant / goofy and still have interesting things to say. That's basically a cornerstone of postmodern lit. There are also tons of cool things going on if apply elements of film theory to his games, which isn't surprising given how much Kojima loves movies. It's totally ok to just play the game and have fun and leave it at that, but it's kind of silly to then claim that there is nothing deeper going on just because you don't want to look for it.
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Oct 26, 2015 19:15
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There is the popular fan theory that MGS2 had a second twist- the whole game being all just a dream- that was retconned by MGS4. If it were true, then there would be some precedent for some secret second twist that never got revealed Kaz isn't Venom
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Oct 26, 2015 19:16
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I swear there are people that will try to tack "it was all a dream" onto the end of literally any piece of fiction.
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Oct 26, 2015 19:21
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:I swear there are people that will try to tack "it was all a dream" onto the end of literally any piece of fiction. I hear that so often but I haven't yet seen it implemented in any work of fiction I have seen. Well nothing is spring to my mind atleast. Has that being applied to something popular?
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Oct 26, 2015 19:28
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Sefal posted:I hear that so often but I haven't yet seen it implemented in any work of fiction I have seen. Well nothing is spring to my mind atleast. Wizard of Oz and St. Elsewhere would be high on my list Newhart as well. Super Mario Bros 2 also There's more, but they're mostly special one off stories in episodic fiction, as opposed to whole works. OJ MIST 2 THE DICK fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Oct 26, 2015 |
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Oct 26, 2015 19:33
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^Mario 2 never hides that it's a dream.SolidSnakesBandana posted:If people like you had their way, every movie would just be Transformers. Just turn off your brain and watch the pretty explosions! After all it's just a <media>. Even the Transformers movies have a lot going on under the surface. CineD has a whole thread analyzing Transformers, scene by scene. Grizzled Patriarch posted:I swear there are people that will try to tack "it was all a dream" onto the end of literally any piece of fiction. That's been replaced with "protagonist is actually dead and is in purgatory."
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Oct 26, 2015 19:40
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Sefal posted:I hear that so often but I haven't yet seen it implemented in any work of fiction I have seen. Well nothing is spring to my mind atleast. There are tons and tons of things that have used that as a twist, and almost all of them are terrible. You don't see it as a deliberate piece of storytelling very often anymore because it's basically become a joke. The theories usually don't gain a lot of traction because "it was all a dream" is pretty much the laziest, least compelling read of any piece of fiction, but people still try to apply it to almost everything. Off the top of my head: Lost, Breaking Bad (people thought it was a dream taking place inside of Malcom in the Middle), Saved by the Bell, Final Fantasy 8 (the also-popular "dream while dying" theory), Grease, Total Recall (to be fair, this one has some textual support), Ferris Bueller's Day Off, Walking Dead. I'm sure there are tons more. Basically any plot that is even remotely ambiguous or unrealistic has a stubborn group of fans who are adamant that most or all of the story is actually just a dream. Detective No. 27 posted:^Mario 2 never hides that it's a dream. Yeah, that one has been around for a long time too, but Lost really kicked it into overdrive and now it's everywhere. There are a few things that have pulled it off (Jacob's Ladder springs to mind) but 99% of the time it just gets trotted out by people who think "fooling the audience" is somehow profound. Grizzled Patriarch fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Oct 26, 2015 |
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Oct 26, 2015 19:47
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:There are tons and tons of things that have used that as a deliberate twist, and almost all of them are terrible.
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Oct 26, 2015 19:52
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Detective No. 27 posted:^Mario 2 never hides that it's a dream. It does, as good as it could for a NES game anyways, "After awakening, Mario went to a cave nearby and to his surprise, he saw exactly what he saw in his dream."
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Oct 26, 2015 19:53
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ayn rand hand job posted:Wizard of Oz and St. Elsewhere would be high on my list St. Elsewhere I think is my favorite because it in theory, by following crossovers spinoffs and guest appearances, covers everything. Yes, everything, including reality outside of the world of the show. Venom Snake isn't Big Boss, he's just yet another poor schmuck in a snowglobe who is the product of an autistic child's brain.
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Oct 26, 2015 19:56
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Ekusukariba posted:It does, as good as it could for a NES game anyways, "After awakening, Mario went to a cave nearby and to his surprise, he saw exactly what he saw in his dream." I guess I just misremembered it. Though that game was pretty obviously a dream.
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Oct 26, 2015 19:58
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Detective No. 27 posted:^Mario 2 never hides that it's a dream. I was debating putting thr British Life on Mars and Ashes to Ashes on the list, though American Life on Mars was more straight up application.
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Oct 26, 2015 19:59
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Mario 2 takes place in a world called Subcon, it wasn't hiding the dream thing very well.
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Oct 26, 2015 20:04
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