Ask me/us about Islam

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Ask me/us about Islam

Bolocko: Oct 19, 2007

The thing is, Catholicism, like Islam & Shari'ah law, is often assumed to rigidly define all sorts of things that aren't actually rigidly defined (whether that's an "any more" or "ever").

waitwhatno says there are rules on "how to gently caress", but there aren't really. There are basic rules on the context for sex (married, for one), but for sex itself just one thing: to respect the procreative nature of the event any intentional male orgasms should occur vaginally. Whatever happens to get a man there � whatever positions, acts, toys, liquids, etc. � are between man, wife, and God, and if he never orgasms but his wife orgasms a dozen times, that's A-OK. Just be conscientious and safe.

Likewise "when to eat fish" is answered with: whenever you'd like. It's the only meat that's permissible during Friday fasts and Ash Wednesday, and so on those days when abstinence from red meat is expected fish provides a fair substitute. But fish isn't *required* on those days, nor is there a prohibition on eating it any other day.

# ? Oct 25, 2015 09:50

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 11:18

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

goose fleet posted:

How do Ibadis differ from the other two big branches?

I don't claim to know a lot about Ibadi's. However, this are the differences that I can tell, which make them a "deviant" sect according to the Sunni and Shia.

Generally speaking the Ibadi theology questions the attributes of Allah that he ascribes to Himself in the Qur'an as symbolic or more mystical and not literal. Sunni and Shia beliefs in things like Allah being most Merciful, Most Forgiving are seen as attributes one may ascribe to a human rather than God.

The Ibadi do not believe in a literal "Day" of resurrection and judgement, but that it is a "age" to come. Shia and Sunni believe in the Day of Judgment when everyone will be resurrected and account for their sins or be rewarded for their good deeds.

Ibadi's believe that the Qur'an is created by the Prophet during his prophethood. The Sunni and Shia believe that the Quran is Allah's words revealed to the Prophet.

At times the Ibadi's drew their own conclusions between the followers of the Sunni and Shia traditions on who was a legitimate successor to the Prophet after his death. They drew their own opinions, whereas the Sunni and Shia split decisively over the system of how the Prophet should be succeeded, by election or by bloodline.

# ? Oct 25, 2015 14:01

Tendai: Mar 16, 2007; "When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber."; Grimey Drawer

pidan posted:

Oh, that's really interesting. I always thought everybody loved Aisha. The largest name was Zaynab, who is apparently connected to the Karbala battle. So the protesters / celebrants must have been Shiites, I never knew we had those here.

Well I mean, I doubt the majority of Shi'a are in the "VICIOUS INTRIGUING WHORE" camp but generally she is not looked at positively. Neutral, at best. Fatimah is the early Islamic woman most important for Shi'a, inasmuch as I've been able to tell. I wonder why the hell they were out marching the day after. Maybe in response to the bombings of/attacks on Shi'a that happened on/because of Ashura. That's probably more likely.

Amun Khonsu posted:

Along the lines of Muslims, Christians and Jews, I found a video of the Islamic Call to Prayer in a packed Church. It features the call to prayer from an Imam standing next to a Jewish Rabbi and Christian Minister. If you're interested in hearing a beautiful recitation, have a look. The description of the video gives more details about the Call to Prayer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QOKG_JZ6fA

That's really fantastic :unsmith:

Gives me some hope after going on the Reddit Islam subs recently and seeing what a shitstorm my religion's internet community still is.

goose fleet posted:

How do Ibadis differ from the other two big branches?

Amun basically covered what I know. One interesting historical thing that I can add is that historians (both Muslim and non-Muslim) generally believe that instead of an independent-forming movement, it was an offshoot of the Khajarites who are interesting in their own right, even if I always confused that word with "khajit" and start imagining Muslim cat people. They were (are, apparently a small number still exist which I didn't know) a really interesting blend of Sunni and Shi'a in terms of their opinions and doctrine.

Amun Khonsu posted:

Id say the ratio of legalism from neo-conservative to neo-liberal are roughly the same in Judaism, Chistrianity and Islam. This opinion just from my personal experience.

Yep. It all depends on the same factors like where you were brought up, where you are now, etc etc. I will say that I have met way more incredibly conservative, zealous people who were converts than I have who were raised in Islam. To the point where if I meet someone who's like that (particularly on the internet) I automatically kind of assume they're a convert and not raised Muslim. Like... I'm extremely liberal, and a few days ago I got into a snarling internet argument with someone who thought it wasn't permissible for Muslims to vote.

pidan posted:

For example, Catholics have rules about modesty, too, but they're perfectly fine with cultures where it's normal for women to walk around topless, or Catholics wearing normal bathing suits to the beach. Because God is not believed to have a list of acceptable clothing styles

Except the interpretation of that varies incredibly widely, is the problem, the same way Catholic views of modesty do. I'm sure there are Catholics who are horrified at people walking around in bikinis, just like there are Muslims who are horrified at the idea of a woman walking around with (gasp!) her hair uncovered. This has more to do with the relative conservatism of the country or area in question, I'd imagine.

Bolocko posted:

The thing is, Catholicism, like Islam & Shari'ah law, is often assumed to rigidly define all sorts of things that aren't actually rigidly defined (whether that's an "any more" or "ever").

waitwhatno says there are rules on "how to gently caress", but there aren't really. There are basic rules on the context for sex (married, for one), but for sex itself just one thing: to respect the procreative nature of the event any intentional male orgasms should occur vaginally. Whatever happens to get a man there � whatever positions, acts, toys, liquids, etc. � are between man, wife, and God, and if he never orgasms but his wife orgasms a dozen times, that's A-OK. Just be conscientious and safe.

Likewise "when to eat fish" is answered with: whenever you'd like. It's the only meat that's permissible during Friday fasts and Ash Wednesday, and so on those days when abstinence from red meat is expected fish provides a fair substitute. But fish isn't *required* on those days, nor is there a prohibition on eating it any other day.

Just gonna quote this totally because it's what I was trying to say and failed at since it's 7:58 in the drat morning :v:

The sex rules are in fact pretty stunningly permissive in comparison to what I know of Catholic (and other Christian) doctrine. Islam has never, historically-speaking, denied that sex can be as much for pleasure as it can for procreation. It's pretty much trumpeted as one of the reasons to get married :toot:

"Hey look, loving is awesome, get married and you can do that poo poo all the time." If children happen, great! If not, everyone still enjoyed it! This really contrasts to what I know of official Catholic doctrine historically (I'm not sure if the official ruling is still "sex must be for procreation") and has led to sex not being particularly shameful in and of itself, so long as it's done within the sphere of marriage.

In my experience, if you're ever with a group of devout Muslim women after the veils come off in their house, you will hear more sex life talk than you might be comfortable with. It's like a locker room of old women, zero restraint.

# ? Oct 25, 2015 15:02

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

Tendai posted:

That's really fantastic Gives me some hope after going on the Reddit Islam subs recently and seeing what a shitstorm my religion's internet community still is.

There is a lot of hope to go around. The problem today is that it is rarely highlighted like the negative where Islam or Muslims are concerned. I swear some people in the west are living in the same dark age that some Muslims are living in, fighting a spiritual battle for supremacy. After 9/11 it was the Jewish community that reached out to me to assist in designing a programme to counter racism and bigotry against Muslims. It was a great success. When we really look at the issues, we have to realize that we are all human and want for ourselves, our families, communities and countries, the very same things.

# ? Oct 25, 2015 15:55

Tendai: Mar 16, 2007; "When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber."; Grimey Drawer

Amun Khonsu posted:

There is a lot of hope to go around. The problem today is that it is rarely highlighted like the negative where Islam or Muslims are concerned. I swear some people in the west are living in the same dark age that some Muslims are living in, fighting a spiritual battle for supremacy. After 9/11 it was the Jewish community that reached out to me to assist in designing a programme to counter racism and bigotry against Muslims. It was a great success. When we really look at the issues, we have to realize that we are all human and want for ourselves, our families, communities and countries, the very same things.

The problem is, getting people to look at the issues with an un-biased enough mindset that they're able to see that. I hate feeling that in terms of like, basic human decency, my own religion's community is probably the hardest fight I still have in terms of convincing people that yes, other people really do matter as individuals, and you shouldn't be overpious shitlords to them or ignore them.

# ? Oct 25, 2015 15:59

Bolocko: Oct 19, 2007

Tendai posted:

This really contrasts to what I know of official Catholic doctrine historically (I'm not sure if the official ruling is still "sex must be for procreation") and has led to sex not being particularly shameful in and of itself, so long as it's done within the sphere of marriage.

The view is that God's purpose for sex is procreation, and so couples should conduct themselves in due reverence to that purpose (by refraining from birth control, male ejaculate delivered vaginally, etc), but not all sex needs to be procreative — it's certainly acknowledged that sex is fun and pleasurable, beautiful in its messy humanness, and that sharing in it is can be a transcendent sort of experience. You can look at it as being about regulating male orgasms if you want; as I said in the previous post, everything else is fair play.

# ? Oct 25, 2015 17:01

Tendai: Mar 16, 2007; "When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber."; Grimey Drawer

Bolocko posted:

The view is that God's purpose for sex is procreation, and so couples should conduct themselves in due reverence to that purpose (by refraining from birth control, male ejaculate delivered vaginally, etc), but not all sex needs to be procreative — it's certainly acknowledged that sex is fun and pleasurable, beautiful in its messy humanness, and that sharing in it is can be a transcendent sort of experience. You can look at it as being about regulating male orgasms if you want; as I said in the previous post, everything else is fair play.

Interesting, thank you for filling me in. Like I said, my knowledge of it is a bit, uh, historical and not up to date on interpretation and how things are done.

# ? Oct 25, 2015 17:21

BattyKiara: Mar 17, 2009

Why is marriage so important to muslims? The idea of being a divorced woman with zero interest in getting a new husband seems to baffle a lot of my muslim friends. With a lot of "You know Muslim men can marry Christian women? My cousin/friend/something....*hint* *wink*"

# ? Oct 25, 2015 20:34

Khizan: Jul 30, 2013

Bolocko posted:

The view is that God's purpose for sex is procreation, and so couples should conduct themselves in due reverence to that purpose (by refraining from birth control, male ejaculate delivered vaginally, etc), but not all sex needs to be procreative

So basically you're saying that all sex needs to include the possibility of having children or it's sinful but you don't get retroactive sinning points if it doesn't take? I mean, doesn't this boil down to "The dude should only orgasm if you're willing to have another child?"

# ? Oct 26, 2015 01:27

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

BattyKiara posted:

Why is marriage so important to muslims? The idea of being a divorced woman with zero interest in getting a new husband seems to baffle a lot of my muslim friends. With a lot of "You know Muslim men can marry Christian women? My cousin/friend/something....*hint* *wink*"

Not sure if I understand the reasoning, but marriage in Islam is an integral part of our social fabric that promotes family values and ultimately creates a more stable society.

The particulars of marriage tell us that it is the only outlet for our sexuality, the primary means of having children and for families (and extended families) to take care of each other without being a burden on the state. We tend to take care of our elderly and you will be hard pressed to find an "old people's" home in Muslim countries or among a community of Muslims in a non-Muslim country.

Regarding men being able to marry Christian and Jewish women, there is a huge misconception among Muslims (particularly men) that they can do so willy nilly. There are strict rules regarding this. The Christian or Jewish women cannot ascribe partners with Allah (Jews by nature dont do this, but many Christians do). Also, the non-Muslim partner must agree before hand and hold to raising the children as Muslims. Also, the Jewish or Christian women must not be prevented from going to the shul (synagogue) or church if they wish. The women cannot hinder or make demands on the practice of Islam by her spouse or their children.

Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Oct 26, 2015

# ? Oct 26, 2015 01:35

goose willis: Jun 14, 2015; Get ready for teh wacky laughz0r!

The Ibadis are very interesting. I'm curious, are there other branches of Islam that aren't Sunni/Shia/Ibadi that didn't survive to the present day?

# ? Oct 26, 2015 01:36

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

goose fleet posted:

The Ibadis are very interesting. I'm curious, are there other branches of Islam that aren't Sunni/Shia/Ibadi that didn't survive to the present day?

From what I know, the Khawarij, who were the group from which Ibadis come from. Im not sure if there are others.

# ? Oct 26, 2015 01:38

Tendai: Mar 16, 2007; "When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber."; Grimey Drawer

Amun Khonsu posted:

From what I know, the Khawarij, who were the group from which Ibadis come from. Im not sure if there are others.

Actually there are apparently Khajarites/Khawarij still extant according to what I read today, which was a surprise to me. Small groups, but apparently people still follow it.

I don't know if the Qadariyah (not the Sufi order spelled similarly but a sect big on free will) still exist. Uhhh. Other than that I have no idea, most others I can think of at least have some followers these days.

# ? Oct 26, 2015 02:58

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

Tendai posted:

Actually there are apparently Khajarites/Khawarij still extant according to what I read today, which was a surprise to me. Small groups, but apparently people still follow it.

I don't know if the Qadariyah (not the Sufi order spelled similarly but a sect big on free will) still exist. Uhhh. Other than that I have no idea, most others I can think of at least have some followers these days.

Possibly. It's hard to believe all of them are gone given there is an offshoot of the still in existence. Maybe when I get around to visiting Oman Ill make a friend and ask heh

# ? Oct 26, 2015 03:07

Bolocko: Oct 19, 2007

Khizan posted:

So basically you're saying that all sex needs to include the possibility of having children or it's sinful but you don't get retroactive sinning points if it doesn't take? I mean, doesn't this boil down to "The dude should only orgasm if you're willing to have another child?"

Regarding coitus, in effect yes, that's more or less the gist of it. Couples can do other things to avoid the possibility of pregnancy: Catholic Natural Family Planning is absolutely a thing.

# ? Oct 26, 2015 03:30

Tendai: Mar 16, 2007; "When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber."; Grimey Drawer

Bolocko posted:

Regarding coitus, in effect yes, that's more or less the gist of it. Couples can do other things to avoid the possibility of pregnancy: Catholic Natural Family Planning is absolutely a thing.

That I would say is probably the most fundamental philosophical difference about sex between them, honestly. Islam is generally okay with birth control (though the accepted type depends on who you ask and half the people giving opinions on it have no medical training and WELP) and sex for just, you know, fun. Orgasms do not have to carry the intent/willingness to have baby, at least in the opinions of the scholars I've read.

# ? Oct 26, 2015 18:03

GABA ghoul: Oct 29, 2011

Bolocko posted:

Regarding coitus, in effect yes, that's more or less the gist of it. Couples can do other things to avoid the possibility of pregnancy: Catholic Natural Family Planning is absolutely a thing.

That seems totally inconsistent to me. A woman can only get pregnant during a few days of the month. If you are having sex outside that time period you are doing it just for fun and not for procreation, right?

# ? Oct 26, 2015 18:28

Bolocko: Oct 19, 2007

As I said, sex for fun isn't prohibited, and sex outside the fertility window isn't disrespectful of God's procreative design, which is not that we only have sex when pregnancy is most likely to occur.

# ? Oct 26, 2015 20:16

GABA ghoul: Oct 29, 2011

Bolocko posted:

As I said, sex for fun isn't prohibited, and sex outside the fertility window isn't disrespectful of God's procreative design, which is not that we only have sex when pregnancy is most likely to occur.

Please don't take it the wrong way, but this makes absolutely no sense to me. It seems like it's trying to unify two totally different views on sex.

the ultimate purpose of sex should be procreation <-> it's totally fine to have sex for fun only, as much as you want, even if you don't want children

I just don't get it, this is like when I tried to comprehend the Trinity, but with more sex. I think I'll stick to Islam as my fallback religion. At least it kinda makes logical sense most of the time.

# ? Oct 26, 2015 21:45

goose willis: Jun 14, 2015; Get ready for teh wacky laughz0r!

How compatible are Halal and Kosher? Like, if you're in an area where Halal foods aren't readily available, is it safe to just eat Kosher?

# ? Oct 26, 2015 22:59

flakeloaf: Feb 26, 2003; Still better than android clock

Wine and gummi bears are kosher but not halal; lobster and some ungulates are halal but not kosher. Meat in general is a problem because the laws of slaughter are different - a halal slaughter must invoke the name of Allah once for each animal, and a kosher slaughter should "probably but it's okay if you forgot" invoke a blessing (which would of course not include G-d's name at all) before a series of slaughters. Turn kosher beef into a cheeseburger and neither side can eat it.

Dietary laws are a really interesting part of faith and something you learn a lot about entirely by accident in the funeral game.

# ? Oct 26, 2015 23:12

Bolocko: Oct 19, 2007

waitwhatno posted:

Please don't take it the wrong way, but this makes absolutely no sense to me. It seems like it's trying to unify two totally different views on sex.

the ultimate purpose of sex should be procreation <-> it's totally fine to have sex for fun only, as much as you want, even if you don't want children

Sex is also "a source of joy and pleasure", and "spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment." "Spouses share in the creative power and fatherhood of God" which should be fulfilled "responsibly", and "a particular aspect (of that responsibility) concerns the regulation of procreation . . . conform(ed) to the objective criteria of morality." "The methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity of the objective criteria of morality," "criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts, criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love": "these methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom." (quotes from the Catechism)

I've tried to keep it brief but doing so seems to promote oversimplification, and I could also be incorrect or just inarticulate, so I'd recommend posing the question to the Liturgical Christianity thread if you want someone better-qualified to respond in more detail. A longer reply involving more quotation from the Catechism and pertinent documents (Gaudium et Spes, Familiaris Consortio, et al) doesn't seem appropriate for the Islam thread.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 00:20

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

goose fleet posted:

How compatible are Halal and Kosher? Like, if you're in an area where Halal foods aren't readily available, is it safe to just eat Kosher?

Most things kosher is halal. However, not all things halal are kosher. For example, shellfish are halal, but not kosher. Alcohol is not halal.

Muslims can buy all Jewish meats and regular food products.

The gummi bear thing is a hit or miss for Jews and Muslims. As long as they are made without gelatin then they are halal, because Jews and Muslims dont eat products made from the blood of an animal.

Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Oct 27, 2015

# ? Oct 27, 2015 00:51

Tendai: Mar 16, 2007; "When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber."; Grimey Drawer

Yeah, most people will default to the kosher option if there's not a specifically halal version available; this definitely used to be the case on airplanes though I haven't flown in awhile so maybe halal meals are more available in non-Muslim-heavy areas. It's not going to be perfect but it's closer than otherwise and Islam is definitely not down with people going hungry just because the food choice is not perfect

# ? Oct 27, 2015 03:27

flakeloaf: Feb 26, 2003; Still better than android clock

Amun Khonsu posted:

The gummi bear thing is a hit or miss for Jews and Muslims. As long as they are made without gelatin then they are halal, because Jews and Muslims dont eat products made from the blood of an animal.

Hm. I thought animal gelatin was made from animal bones, and that kosher, non-pork gelatin is still haraam for the same reason that said animals' meat would be.

Now I'm trying to think of a situation where you'd be in mortal danger of starvation and the only food available was gummi bears. Perhaps a bizarre movie theatre cave-in.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 03:36

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

flakeloaf posted:

Hm. I thought animal gelatin was made from animal bones, and that kosher, non-pork gelatin is still haraam for the same reason that said animals' meat would be.

Now I'm trying to think of a situation where you'd be in mortal danger of starvation and the only food available was gummi bears. Perhaps a bizarre movie theatre cave-in.

Yes, its from bone marrow. The packages typically dont say what kind of animal is used. Often they mix species in making gelatin (cow and pig). So we stay away from it. There are some substitutes that we use for gunny candies that do not contain gelatin. Where I live it is quite common. Im not sure how common it is in the west..

I think that gummi bears might be the answer to world famine some day.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 06:15

Tendai: Mar 16, 2007; "When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber."; Grimey Drawer

At least if the world ends Fallout-style I might have a chance to eat a BLT again without breaking a rule :saddowns:

I am not ashamed to admit that I miss those, and turkey bacon is not the goddamn same.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 14:26

flakeloaf: Feb 26, 2003; Still better than android clock

Speaking of breaking rules, can you think of any Islamic observances that purport to obey the letter of the law even if they seem to violate the spirit of it?

For example, Jews are forbidden to carry things outside from one place to another on the sabbath. To get around that rule they came up with the eruv, which is basically a length of string hung up around a community that allows people within it to pretend they're still "inside" so it's totally okay to pack up a casserole and bring it over to a friend's house inside the same eruv. Some say that god wouldn't be fooled by such transparent rules lawyering, others insist that the eruv demonstrates how they remember the commandment and they want to observe it but the same time stuff's gotta get done.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 14:38

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

flakeloaf posted:

Speaking of breaking rules, can you think of any Islamic observances that purport to obey the letter of the law even if they seem to violate the spirit of it?

For example, Jews are forbidden to carry things outside from one place to another on the sabbath. To get around that rule they came up with the eruv, which is basically a length of string hung up around a community that allows people within it to pretend they're still "inside" so it's totally okay to pack up a casserole and bring it over to a friend's house inside the same eruv. Some say that god wouldn't be fooled by such transparent rules lawyering, others insist that the eruv demonstrates how they remember the commandment and they want to observe it but the same time stuff's gotta get done.

Im familiar with those rules from when I studies Judaism, heh. No, in Islam, there is no fooling God. Everything we do is based on good intention and has the "in good faith" clause since Allah knows what is in our hearts. Trying to intentionally find loopholes doesn't make it "legal" for us. The second chapter of the Qur'an is an example to us on how Allah viewed the ancient Jews who engaged in this sort of legalism and He wasn't too happy with them for it.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 15:05

Tendai: Mar 16, 2007; "When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber."; Grimey Drawer

flakeloaf posted:

Speaking of breaking rules, can you think of any Islamic observances that purport to obey the letter of the law even if they seem to violate the spirit of it?

For example, Jews are forbidden to carry things outside from one place to another on the sabbath. To get around that rule they came up with the eruv, which is basically a length of string hung up around a community that allows people within it to pretend they're still "inside" so it's totally okay to pack up a casserole and bring it over to a friend's house inside the same eruv. Some say that god wouldn't be fooled by such transparent rules lawyering, others insist that the eruv demonstrates how they remember the commandment and they want to observe it but the same time stuff's gotta get done.

Like Amun said, this is really frowned upon since the focus on Islam tends to be much more about the intention of an action. I think at best it would get an eyebrow-raise and a "really, you're trying to be sneaky about this? Really?" from other people and that would probably be my reaction as well. I mean, c'mon. Bacon tastes good but if you can't have that much self-restraint there's a deeper issue. We have "outs" for extenuating circumstances (starving, tricked by devious bacon-eaters, etc) so there's no real need.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 15:31

Fizzil: Aug 24, 2005; There are five fucks at the edge of a cliff...

Tendai posted:

At least if the world ends Fallout-style I might have a chance to eat a BLT again without breaking a rule I am not ashamed to admit that I miss those, and turkey bacon is not the goddamn same.

Although the prohibition on it is pretty clear, but back when the belief was widespread that pork was haram because it was filthy actually made people think that "with technology making it safer to it, maybe it becomes halal?", it was seriously considered here at least :v:

I haven't tried pork bacon, probably won't, but turkey bacon is much more tolerable than any other kind of bacon i have ever tried.

# ? Oct 29, 2015 01:05

EggsAisle: Dec 17, 2013; I get it! You're, uh...

Really interesting thread, thanks for doing this.

I once read from a not-very-reliable source that Islam is very particular about shaving, for both men and women. It basically said Muslims are supposed to remove just about all of their body hair- armpit, leg, pubic, all of it. Does this have any basis in cultural reality?

# ? Oct 29, 2015 03:45

goose willis: Jun 14, 2015; Get ready for teh wacky laughz0r!

I was reading up on religious statements on extraterrestrial life recently, and came across this: http://www.theguardian.com/science/2010/sep/17/pope-astronomer-baptise-aliens

There was also some Vatican statement before that, but I can't find it.

So, here's a fun question: have there been any statements by prominent Islamic scholars on life beyond our planet? Obviously, we don't know whether or not anything's out there, so it's all speculative, but it's interesting to think about.

# ? Oct 29, 2015 04:09

Tendai: Mar 16, 2007; "When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber."; Grimey Drawer

EggsAisle posted:

Really interesting thread, thanks for doing this.

I once read from a not-very-reliable source that Islam is very particular about shaving, for both men and women. It basically said Muslims are supposed to remove just about all of their body hair- armpit, leg, pubic, all of it. Does this have any basis in cultural reality?

Oh yeah, Islam is generally very "NO BODY HAIR." Except facial hair on men and head hair on errybody as much as they are able to grow it. Unlike ritual washing, this is not described in the Qur'an but solely in the hadith in terms of specifics. Generally:

The degree to which these are followed depends on how orthodox or strict one is. Personally it all more or less fits with what I do anyhow so I follow those rules. Except I groom my eyebrows, because otherwise they get uneven and it bugs the poo poo out of me.

goose fleet posted:

I was reading up on religious statements on extraterrestrial life recently, and came across this: http://www.theguardian.com/science/2010/sep/17/pope-astronomer-baptise-aliens

There was also some Vatican statement before that, but I can't find it.

So, here's a fun question: have there been any statements by prominent Islamic scholars on life beyond our planet? Obviously, we don't know whether or not anything's out there, so it's all speculative, but it's interesting to think about.

Actually, this is something I was reading up on earlier :eng101:

The general consensus among scholars who have commented on it is that life on other planets is entirely possible. Allah is described as being the lord of worlds, plural, after all. They also draw on verses from the Qur'an like this one:

quote:

Among His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the living creatures that He has scattered through them: and He has power to gather them together when He wills. (42:29)

and this one

quote:

Allah is the one who created seven heavens and from Earth like them; Allah's command descends among them so that you may know that Allah is capable of anything and that Allah knows everything. (65:12)

The general attitude I've seen is a surprisingly chill "Sure, it's possible and probably likely, and they come from the same place we do" which works both in the strict literal creation of sentient life sense that the Qur'an can be interpreted to support and the scientific "we came from star dust" idea.

Tendai fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Oct 29, 2015

# ? Oct 29, 2015 04:27

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

goose fleet posted:

I was reading up on religious statements on extraterrestrial life recently, and came across this: http://www.theguardian.com/science/2010/sep/17/pope-astronomer-baptise-aliens

There was also some Vatican statement before that, but I can't find it.

So, here's a fun question: have there been any statements by prominent Islamic scholars on life beyond our planet? Obviously, we don't know whether or not anything's out there, so it's all speculative, but it's interesting to think about.

Ive heard scholars talk about this. It is a commonly held belief that Allah has created more lifeforms than us on earth, the Angels and the Jinn (ie extra-terrestrial lifeforms), if not only in this universe then other universes as well.

The Qur'an speaks of the existence of Alien lifeforms, existence of multiple dimensions (known as M-Theory or String theory today), Day of Judgement on some of them, all of them look to One God. Here are some verses of the Qur'an that justify this.

Qur'an 1:2 "[All] praise is [due] to Allah , Lord of the worlds -" (note this is in our 5 daily prayers)

Qur'an 42:29 "Among His (God's) signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the living creatures that He has scattered through them :and He has power to gather them together when He wills."

Qur'an 39:68 "And the Horn will be blown, and whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth will fall dead except whom Allah wills. Then it will be blown again, and at once they will be standing, looking on."

Qur'an 19:93-96 "There is no one in the heavens and earth but that he comes to the Most Merciful as a servant. He has enumerated them and counted them a [full] counting. And all of them are coming to Him on the Day of Resurrection alone."

Qur'an 65:12 "It is Allah who has created seven heavens and of the earth, the like of them. [His] command descends among them so you may know that Allah is over all things competent and that Allah has encompassed all things in knowledge."

Qur'an 16:49 "And to Allah prostrates whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth of creatures, and the angels [as well], and they are not arrogant."

Some online works:

quote:

http://www.onislam.net/english/heal...l?the_Sciences=

Q: Is there anything in the Quran perhaps that suggests there are other beings other than human beings that exist?

Dr. Shabir: The Quran actually is quite open to the possibility that many Earths do exist, because the first chapter of the Quran says: �Praise be to God, the Lord of the worlds�. In fact, it says here Al-Alamin which is �The Universes� in the plural.

So there could be many universes and many worlds. In traditional commentaries on the Quran, it has been explained that it�s given here in the plural because we have many worlds operating even around us and in our own bodies there are many systems.

There is a world of human beings, there is a plant world, the world of Jinns which is another set of creatures, and the world of angels, another sort of creatures. So there could be many other sorts of creatures out there.

In the 74th chapter of the Quran we read, �And none knows the soldiers of your Lord except Him.� Also the 29th verse in the Quran�s 42nd chapter says: �And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and what He has dispersed throughout them of creatures. And He, for gathering them when He wills, is competent.� It would seem from this verse that such animate life is scattered throughout the heavens and the earth.

They also have articles on;

- Aliens, Alternate Dimensions, and Allah.

- Parallel Universes: The Endless Possibilities of Creation.

- Aliens and Extraterrestrial Life: An Islamic Look.

- Giant Telescope to Explore Far Reaches of Cosmos.

and,

http://islam-science.net/islam-and-extraterrestrial-life-2908/

Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Oct 29, 2015

# ? Oct 29, 2015 05:39

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

Tendai posted:

Oh yeah, Islam is generally very "NO BODY HAIR." Except facial hair on men and head hair on errybody as much as they are able to grow it. Unlike ritual washing, this is not described in the Qur'an but solely in the hadith in terms of specifics. Generally:

- Both genders should trim/remove pubic hair. I'm not sure which one of those it is since I've read scholars saying both of them.
- Both genders should remove armpit hair.
- Men (and women I suppose) are allowed to trim their mustache.
- Neither gender is supposed to remove hair from their eyebrows or beard. Except for unibrows according to some scholars, since that's "hair between the eyebrows" and not the eyebrows themselves.
- Other hair like leg, arm, etc is generally kind of dependent on what scholar you listen to or interpretation you make, probably where you're from, and also what gender you are. From what I understand, for example, a woman waxing her legs will be more accepted than a man doing the same.
The degree to which these are followed depends on how orthodox or strict one is. Personally it all more or less fits with what I do anyhow so I follow those rules. Except I groom my eyebrows, because otherwise they get uneven and it bugs the poo poo out of me.

Actually, this is something I was reading up on earlier The general consensus among scholars who have commented on it is that life on other planets is entirely possible. Allah is described as being the lord of worlds, plural, after all. They also draw on verses from the Qur'an like this one:

and this one

The general attitude I've seen is a surprisingly chill "Sure, it's possible and probably likely, and they come from the same place we do" which works both in the strict literal creation of sentient life sense that the Qur'an can be interpreted to support and the scientific "we came from star dust" idea.

Islamic hygiene confirmed ^

# ? Oct 29, 2015 06:06

GABA ghoul: Oct 29, 2011

Amun Khonsu posted:

The Qur'an speaks of the existence of Alien lifeforms, existence of multiple dimensions (known as M-Theory or String theory today), Day of Judgement on some of them, all of them look to One God. Here are some verses of the Qur'an that justify this.

The belief in multiple worlds is probably as old as humanity and definitely predates Islam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_pluralism

Sorry, but I'm gonna be really skeptical about the Quran containing any specifics of modern astrophysics and cosmology.

# ? Oct 29, 2015 12:57

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

waitwhatno posted:

The belief in multiple worlds is probably as old as humanity and definitely predates Islam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_pluralism

Sorry, but I'm gonna be really skeptical about the Quran containing any specifics of modern astrophysics and cosmology.

There may be evidence to support some of these beliefs pre-dating Islam, just as the belief in One God pre-dated Islam. The religion of Islam does not have a monopoly on ideas, that's for certain. Scientific ideas based in the Qur'an that Muslims have built on began as Muslims translated works from ancient Greece to enhance understanding of science and technology. However, it is clear that the Qur'an specifically mentions ideas that we have been discovering in the scientific realm for centuries since. It is a fact that has been the reason for technological advances during the Islamic Golden Age when Europe was in the Dark Ages, which helped them begin to revitalize their educational institutions during the renaissance and subsequently where we get the basis for much of our modern day technology.

Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Oct 29, 2015

# ? Oct 29, 2015 13:08

GABA ghoul: Oct 29, 2011

Amun Khonsu posted:

However, it is clear that the Qur'an specifically mentions ideas that we have been discovering in the scientific realm for centuries since. It is a fact that has been the reason for technological advances during the Islamic Golden Age when Europe was in the Dark Ages, which helped them begin to revitalize their educational institutions during the renaissance and subsequently where we get the basis for much of our modern day technology.

That's definitely true, but I find it pretty bizarre to claim that the Quran contains facts about modern science. I looked at the wikipedia page on the matter and every single example that they mentioned is just some extremely vague and generic statement, that can mean whatever you want it to mean. I see nothing there that hasn't been common knowledge in many regions of the world at that point.

e:

Like for example:

"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?

I think "parting of heavens and earth" is already mentioned in Genesis? And all living organisms being made from primarily water is pretty self-evident to every human being. Why would you ever try to contort that into things like the big bang and hydrogen fusion?

GABA ghoul fucked around with this message at 13:42 on Oct 29, 2015

# ? Oct 29, 2015 13:34

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 11:18

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

waitwhatno posted:

That's definitely true, but I find it pretty bizarre to claim that the Quran contains facts about modern science. I looked at the wikipedia page on the matter and every single example that they mentioned is just some extremely vague and generic statement, that can mean whatever you want it to mean. I see nothing there that hasn't been common knowledge in many regions of the world at that point.

wikipedia is not an Islamic source.

I am giving you the opinion of Islamic scholars as well as most Muslims who study Qur'an. I dont find it bizarre at all. Western science does not hold monopoly on the truths revealed before it and much of western science is based on what came before it. What came before it is scientific discovery from the European renaissance and what came before that was the Islamic Golden Age of discovery, and before that, the discoveries of the ancient Greeks. Our modern technology and discovery in science is based on a long history of human development. We cannot omit Islamic discovery which Muslims have based in Qur'an for 1400 years.

To re-iterate, and as you have stated, many of these ideas existed prior to Islam. Even scholars of the Torah have debated the issue of extraterrestrial life based on its verses. Islam holds that the Torah was revealed to the Jews by Allah. We believe in the Torah as revealed to Musa (Moses).

# ? Oct 29, 2015 13:48

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