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Gestalt Intellect posted:I looped with melting and saw his "blow up everything on the screen with low health" ultra mutation for the first time. I had throne butt at the time. I wanna try that sometime with the "you and some enemies start at 1hp" crown.
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Oct 27, 2015 06:07
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| # ? Jun 8, 2024 22:07 |
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The variety of opinions about what's good tells a story about this game's (IMO really really loving tight) balance. Keeping an open mind about weapons and mutations is something I highly encourage you all to do. Weapons and mutations you thought were total bullshit can be really useful if the right situation presents itself.
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Oct 27, 2015 06:07
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My main problem with picking mutations is that I have a hard time deciding if I want one that is immediately useful or one that will be great down the road. 
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Oct 27, 2015 07:48
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I always thought it'd be fun if Shotgun Shoulders made your shells bounce off of enemies after damaging them instead of disappearing. I mean, the super-bounciness is fun as it is, I just think it'd be even more fun if it did that too.
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Oct 27, 2015 17:09
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Geight posted:I always thought it'd be fun if Shotgun Shoulders made your shells bounce off of enemies after damaging them instead of disappearing. I mean, the super-bounciness is fun as it is, I just think it'd be even more fun if it did that too. Yeah, it's sad that actually shooting things makes the Shoulders not matter.
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Oct 27, 2015 17:12
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It's great for flame shotguns though.
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Oct 27, 2015 17:25
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Yeah I mean really the only mutation I'd rather not have is Last Wish, but even that one is nice to have around.
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Oct 27, 2015 17:27
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Geight posted:I always thought it'd be fun if Shotgun Shoulders made your shells bounce off of enemies after damaging them instead of disappearing. I mean, the super-bounciness is fun as it is, I just think it'd be even more fun if it did that too.
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Oct 27, 2015 18:15
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IronicDongz posted:The actual bad/extremely situational mutations are gamma guts(fun, but not great), shotgun shoulders(much worse than bolt marrow/laser brain/long arms) and eagle eyes(negatively affects a lot of weapons). Stress is fine and impact wrists is downright great on loop. Man, I love shotgun shoulders and eagle eyes, and usually take at least one. I play as Melting and Eyes, and as melting being able to use a flak cannon or something to kill people in a room without you ever having to go in it is super useful, and Eyes with an Eagle Eyes is amazing since you're often clustering the enemies up together and you can deal massive damage with a reduced cone of fire. Eagle Eyes is also great for most of the bullet weapons which tend to have some accuracy problems. If you're already rolling Recycle Gland, it lets your pour out very reliable amount of death - a bouncer shotgun variant in one hand some bullet hose or other in the other. Shotgun shoulders would be so much more awesome if it let shots ricochet of enemies as well. I mostly pick it now because I love using shotguns anyway, but if it did that it would actually be a reason to use shotguns on par with the other weapon abilities. Now, if you want to know about useless mutations, how about : How about "Projectile Style"? I love eyes so much, but absolutely despise looping with him because they both make the game actively harder, and Projectile Style is basically "I hate myself mode". It is literally a mutation that makes it impossible to shoot your enemies while using your special ability (but they can still shoot you!), and also reduces your melee range. WHY? It's way more of a 'crown-style" mutation than eagle eyes. As an aside: Is Big Dog ever going to come back as a playable character? Please? Hahah. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Oct 27, 2015 |
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Oct 27, 2015 18:37
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Today I learned that melee enemies can reflect your projectiles just as you can to them. I was just insta-gibbed by one of them sneaky bandit guys who swung at the same time as I fired a shotgun blast and redirected all of my bullets right back at my face. 
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Oct 27, 2015 20:11
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No, you got killed by something else. Bandit reflections can't hurt you.
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Oct 27, 2015 20:38
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Fayez Butts posted:No, you got killed by something else. Bandit reflections can't hurt you. That's mirrors, IDIOT
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Oct 27, 2015 20:42
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Fayez Butts posted:No, you got killed by something else. Bandit reflections can't hurt you. It was probably the swing itself that killed me then. Still, it startled me pretty hard because I had no idea that could happen.
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Oct 27, 2015 20:43
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AnonSpore posted:Similar to Isaac Pick Up Everything runs I'm gonna start doing NT Take First Mutation runs and see how it goes. You do know about the crown of destiny, right? Scarier face is a really good mutation until you start looping. If you have a serious build you are already overkilling most enemies anyway. Shotgun shoulders is one of the most powerful mutations in the game, it makes more of your pellets eventually hit enemies, and can more than double your damage in the late game. Lucky shot feeds you so much ammo when there are 200+ enemies per level. Strong spirit's invincibility frames make it probably the most powerful mutation in the game, even post nerf. Unless you are seriously good at dodging traffic. Frankly mutation balance is perfect right now. Some are playstyle choices (eagle eyes) others are really good for new players who don't typically loop (scarier face) and others seem weak until you reach the late game (impact wrists, shotgun shoulders, lucky shot.
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Oct 27, 2015 22:50
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TheModernAmerican posted:You do know about the crown of destiny, right? It's no fun without the stinging of knowing What Could Have Been
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Oct 27, 2015 23:00
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Scarier face is actually definitely still top tier on loop because even with a strong build you want stuff to die as quickly as possible. It's not as good as, say, trigger fingers or bolt marrow often are, though.
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Oct 27, 2015 23:05
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TheModernAmerican posted:Frankly mutation balance is perfect right now. Do you seriously think gamma guts is on par with rabbit paw and plutonium hunger. Owl Inspector fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Oct 28, 2015 |
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Oct 27, 2015 23:17
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The problem with Gamma Guts is that it's ostensibly the "protect you from collisions" mutation, but it does jack poo poo to help against vans or rad dogs, the biggest killers in that particular area. It can keep you from being killed by a single spider that moves in all the same directions you do, it can let you insta-kill cops, and it makes the labs a joke. That's pretty much it. Christ, it doesn't even let you survive a snowbot charge unless they've been damaged a bit. Hopefully they'll make it better somehow. I'd love if it ate bullets in the burst AoE and triggered when you touched a bullet in addition to what it does now. Would give another option to surviving post-loop bullet chaos other than hiding in a corner or using melee. Wouldn't really help against vans or dogs but at least it'd have something. Pigbuster fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Oct 28, 2015 |
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Oct 28, 2015 00:33
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You're wrong about at least two things. First: Scary Face is super useful on loops depending on who you play as. (Every little bit helps when you're chaining corpse-splosions, for instance) Secondly: As I already mentioned, the Projectile Style mutation is absolutely horrible and Monster Style isn't much better.
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Oct 28, 2015 01:29
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Gestalt Intellect posted:Do you seriously think gamma guts is on par with rabbit paw and plutonium hunger. Hey man maybe things can be allowed to be worse than others. I guess that's impossible though, in a Rougelike. You never run into situations where you only have bad choices in a Rougelike, no siree. GlyphGryph posted:You're wrong about at least two things. First: Scary Face is super useful on loops depending on who you play as. (Every little bit helps when you're chaining corpse-splosions, for instance) I wasn't talking about ultra mutations, I think they're still working on those. And scarier face is definitely a good mutation, I'd just like 6-7 other mutations before it. And as for Melting, impact wrists is so much better than scarier face. Scarier face doesn't send those corpses flying toward still living enemies and then damage them before even blowing up.
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Oct 28, 2015 01:40
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TheModernAmerican posted:I wasn't talking about ultra mutations, I think they're still working on those. And scarier face is definitely a good mutation, I'd just like 6-7 other mutations before it. And as for Melting, impact wrists is so much better than scarier face. Scarier face doesn't send those corpses flying toward still living enemies and then damage them before even blowing up. Yeah but usually you can take both! Corpses for the corpsesplosion god! Also, Scarier Face means more insta-kills to start the explosion chain running. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Oct 28, 2015 |
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Oct 28, 2015 01:41
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TheModernAmerican posted:Hey man maybe things can be allowed to be worse than others. I guess that's impossible though, in a Rougelike. You never run into situations where you only have bad choices in a Rougelike, no siree. Rolling a bad choice or all bad choices for your character is certainly fair play and in those situations you just have to pick from what you get, but sharp teeth does exactly what gamma guts does, except more useful. BAD is fine. USELESS is not fine. It's a direct downgrade. Why only hurt the enemy that touches you for a bunch of damage when you can hurt the whole screen for slightly less? The only added benefit is running into enemies that don't do contact damage to kill them without using bullets, but there are 3 enemies in the entire game besides IDPD that you can reliably do that to. And even then, 2 out of those 3 have guns and can just shoot you when you're walking up.
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Oct 28, 2015 01:44
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Well, also gamma guts gives you immunity to contact damage from low HP enemies now-aka rats and freaks. Which is nice against the technomancer, at least. I'd kinda like to see sharp teeth and gamma guts just rolled together into one mutation. Pigbuster posted:Hopefully they'll make it better somehow. I'd love if it ate bullets in the burst AoE and triggered when you touched a bullet in addition to what it does now. Would give another option to surviving post-loop bullet chaos other than hiding in a corner or using melee. Wouldn't really help against vans or dogs but at least it'd have something.
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Oct 28, 2015 01:48
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CJacobs posted:Rolling a bad choice or all bad choices for your character is certainly fair play and in those situations you just have to pick from what you get, but sharp teeth does exactly what gamma guts does, except more useful. BAD is fine. USELESS is not fine. It's a direct downgrade. Why only hurt the enemy that touches you for a bunch of damage when you can hurt the whole screen for slightly less? The only added benefit is running into enemies that don't do contact damage to kill them without using bullets, but there are 3 enemies in the entire game besides IDPD that you can reliably do that to. And even then, 2 out of those 3 have guns and can just shoot you when you're walking up. Yeah walking through the labs not taking any damage is a total downgrade, good analysis.
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Oct 28, 2015 01:50
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IronicDongz posted:It'd just be Rogue's passive, then. Oh, right. 
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Oct 28, 2015 01:55
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TheModernAmerican posted:Yeah walking through the labs not taking any damage is a total downgrade, good analysis.
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Oct 28, 2015 02:04
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TheModernAmerican posted:Hey man maybe things can be allowed to be worse than others. I guess that's impossible though, in a Rougelike. You never run into situations where you only have bad choices in a Rougelike, no siree. You literally just said mutation balance was "perfect" what are you even saying
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Oct 28, 2015 02:04
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TheModernAmerican posted:Yeah walking through the labs not taking any damage is a total downgrade, good analysis. Fair enough, but what I meant by saying that was that it shouldn't be counted as good just because it has niche uses. That's a pretty good niche use, but general usage is much more important to consider and to me gamma guts just doesn't have any general use that isn't fulfilled by sharp teeth.
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Oct 28, 2015 02:05
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gamma guts should give rads a super low chance of healing 1 hp
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Oct 28, 2015 02:16
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CJacobs posted:Fair enough, but what I meant by saying that was that it shouldn't be counted as good just because it has niche uses. That's a pretty good niche use, but general usage is much more important to consider and to me gamma guts just doesn't have any general use that isn't fulfilled by sharp teeth. You can use it to give Big Dog and the snow walkers hugs. And Big Bandit. Big Bandit loves hugs as long as there aren't like 3 of him.
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Oct 28, 2015 02:18
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yo guys if you wanna blow up the entire screen by grazing just play some Shikigami no Shiro
Xenogenesis fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Oct 28, 2015 |
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Oct 28, 2015 02:24
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Yeah, but big bandit and big dog pre-loop are easy anyways. Same goes for giving shielders hugs and stuff, in a situation where it's actually important to take them out you don't have the breathing room to do that safely.
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Oct 28, 2015 02:24
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Gestalt Intellect posted:You literally just said mutation balance was "perfect" what are you even saying That a good rougelike deliberately fucks you every once in a while. e: And since we're playing SA's favorite game of interpreting casual statements like lawyers, by "deliberately" I mean the RNG can present you with no good choices. MatildaTheHun fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Oct 28, 2015 |
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Oct 28, 2015 02:25
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Then what you're saying is that the game has good roguelike game design, not that the mutations are balanced.
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Oct 28, 2015 02:52
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I dunno guys, freaks and worms are goddamn terrors on loops. At least the big intimidating enemies like Van and Dog are actually visible. Also still waiting for that loop Oasis boss 
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Oct 28, 2015 03:12
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I think gamma guts is pretty good since it got the buff, but a lot of people don't realize it does that because it certainly don't say it does. I know I didn't until I tried it recently and noticed what it was doing (and it wasn't immediately clear).
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Oct 28, 2015 03:20
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I don't bother with Gamma Guts because most of my mutation intuition is based on older impressions of them, what does it do now?
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Oct 28, 2015 03:57
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Geight posted:I don't bother with Gamma Guts because most of my mutation intuition is based on older impressions of them, what does it do now? A while back they changed it so that it applies your damage to the enemy before the enemy's damage is applied to you, for coding hierarchy reasons. What this resulted in is enemies that are under the damage threshold dying instantly upon touching you, without doing any damage to you, even if they're an enemy that does contact damage. This was actually an unintentional bug, but they liked it so much that they changed it a little bit and made it the standard behavior. So they made it so that enemies that do contact damage to you but have low health (anything less than 7, so most enemies you have damaged with a gun and lab freaks by default) die without hurting you. Enemies that DON'T do contact damage just straight-up die. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Oct 28, 2015 |
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Oct 28, 2015 04:05
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CJacobs posted:A while back they changed it so that it applies your damage to the enemy before the enemy's damage is applied to you, for coding hierarchy reasons. What this resulted in is enemies that are under the damage threshold dying instantly upon touching you, without doing any damage to you, even if they're an enemy that does contact damage. This was actually an unintentional bug, but they liked it so much that they changed it a little bit and made it the standard behavior. So they made it so that enemies that do contact damage to you but have low health (anything less than 7, so most enemies you have damaged with a gun and lab freaks by default) die without hurting you. Enemies that DON'T do contact damage just straight-up die. Wow, it's actually good now
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Oct 28, 2015 04:29
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I wouldn't say good, it definitely has its place though. I'd put it up there with recycle gland or open mind. Full disclosure, I only don't like open mind because of the chance that you could get a one floor Horror spawn if you get unlucky. It's friggen hilarious on YV though.IronicDongz posted:Then what you're saying is that the game has good roguelike game design, not that the mutations are balanced. Have you found many nits yet?
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Oct 28, 2015 04:57
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