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hatesfreedom posted:Is the lack of pronouns because all genders are equal in their eyes or because gender had no place when you're being governed by an AI? I mean probably the former. It's not necessarily either, there are real languages that don't use gendered pronouns but it doesn't mean those languages' culture disregard gender like in AncillaryJustice. Mandarin Chinese used to have just one genderless pronoun until the early 20th century (in writing, it's still the case in spoken form), but China was/is no less male-dominated for it.
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Oct 9, 2015 17:33
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MikeJF posted:Not so much the plot as some people like the good ol' brain-TV while they read and it's annoying to keep getting it wrong and knowing it the whole time. lol books are hard? ok
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Oct 10, 2015 00:07
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divabot posted:lol books are hard? ok
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Oct 10, 2015 00:17
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Sure. Ancillary Justice wasn't hard though. It was really good, and brought exactly the things I look for in science fiction. I especially liked the use of pronoun because at first they messed with my mental image of the characters until I learned to look past it and look at the descriptions and actions instead of the pronouns.
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Oct 10, 2015 00:43
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Seaside Loafer posted:Its entertainment, and I like a challenging read as much as the next person, sometimes, mostly yes I want it not to be hard. So I haven't read the books (although now I want to) and I might not know what I'm talking about. But what's the difference between everyone being a she and the culture minds having no gender? Some minds have ships that are stronger, built for war, are they males? Do you needs gender descriptions for the ships and hubs? SciFi is best when it makes you examine your own culture from outside perspective.
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Oct 10, 2015 00:52
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You think this point was confusing reading them in English, but try reading your first culture books as translations to a language that doesn't have gendered pronouns. I didn't even notice the whole oh wait everyone's female thing until I picked up the original version for my kindle. 
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Oct 10, 2015 01:28
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Waci posted:You think this point was confusing reading them in English, but try reading your first culture books as translations to a language that doesn't have gendered pronouns. I didn't even notice the whole oh wait everyone's female thing until I picked up the original version for my kindle. I'm confused. Banks' Culture books have gendered pronouns. Leckie's Ancillary books "haven't". Also what language?
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Oct 10, 2015 01:31
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Snapchat A Titty posted:Explaining everything is boring. Just dump me in medias res and tell me the bare minimum that's needed at each point in the story and let me figure the rest out. pretty much yes
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Oct 10, 2015 07:40
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Fragmented posted:So I haven't read the books (although now I want to) and I might not know what I'm talking about. But what's the difference between everyone being a she and the culture minds having no gender? Some minds have ships that are stronger, built for war, are they males? Do you needs gender descriptions for the ships and hubs? SciFi is best when it makes you examine your own culture from outside perspective. We're culturally conditioned to classify people into genders, but not aliens (if they're alien enough) and constructs. That's it. It defies the cultural norms we've been brought up with, which is interesting but can also be jarring if you're not used to it and make it a slightly more difficult read.
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Oct 10, 2015 11:26
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Taeke posted:We're culturally conditioned to classify people into genders, but not aliens (if they're alien enough) and constructs. That's it. It defies the cultural norms we've been brought up with, which is interesting but can also be jarring if you're not used to it and make it a slightly more difficult read. Yeah that's the point, and it is "difficult" for say 10-50 pages. After that it's mostly a reminder to pay attention and not assume genders. Tbh it feels good man.
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Oct 10, 2015 11:55
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Snapchat A Titty posted:I'm confused. Banks' Culture books have gendered pronouns. Leckie's Ancillary books "haven't". Sorry, brainfart while posting. Was thinking about the Minds and drones being genderless thing and confused that with Leckie's language thing. Ancillary books haven't even been translated to Finnish yet, thought it'd be interesting to see what they're like if they ever are.
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Oct 11, 2015 18:38
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Taeke posted:We're culturally conditioned to classify people into genders, but not aliens (if they're alien enough) and constructs. That's it. It defies the cultural norms we've been brought up with, which is interesting but can also be jarring if you're not used to it and make it a slightly more difficult read. If sentient aliens and constructs become enough a part of our daily lives that we need to have convenient language to refer to different subsets of them based on their role in reproduction I am sure that we will come up with pronouns for them. Languages are nothing if not flexible, despite what the grammarians will tell you.
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Oct 13, 2015 13:12
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It's also worth noting that the humans in Ancillary Whatever don't look like modern ones. The main character has a hard time telling people's genders because she doesn't know what she's looking for in each human subspecies she encounters (and in her own, it's nearly impossible even if she did).
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Oct 13, 2015 15:37
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Normally I don't like it when authors don't describe things - I mean on topic imagine if Banks had never mentioned what a GSV actually looks like - but it didn't bother me in Ancillary Justice. I just found myself just picturing the characters as very military and androgynous... so I guess the author did a good job taking gender out of the equation?
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Oct 13, 2015 22:58
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Today I was with my friend at his dad's house. His dad happens to run a custom sign engraving business. I asked him "Hey, how much text can you fit on a license plate frame?" And this was the result. 
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Oct 28, 2015 04:27
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excellent
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Oct 28, 2015 04:50
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If it's not a vanity plate that says some variation on GRVITAS, gtfo.
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Oct 28, 2015 05:15
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Was i the only person who didn't like the big 'mistake not' reveal? I honestly thought the idea was cooler before that happened, it's not like it wasn't abundantly clear what 'mistake not...' was implying anyway.
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Oct 28, 2015 06:57
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andrew smash posted:Was i the only person who didn't like the big 'mistake not' reveal? I honestly thought the idea was cooler before that happened, it's not like it wasn't abundantly clear what 'mistake not...' was implying anyway. I didn't like it. I'm kinda sick of Culture ships being braggarts, to be honest. It probably doesn't help that I wasn't too fond of Mistake Not... as a character.
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Oct 28, 2015 07:06
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andrew smash posted:Was i the only person who didn't like the big 'mistake not' reveal? I honestly thought the idea was cooler before that happened, it's not like it wasn't abundantly clear what 'mistake not...' was implying anyway. I thought that made it even funnier. It's so over the top it doesn't even feel like bragging, just an awesome god like power making a really lame joke.
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Oct 28, 2015 08:16
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I thought that made it even funnier. It's so over the top it doesn't even feel like bragging, just an awesome god like power making a really lame joke. That's kind of how I always see Culture Ships, to be honest. They're pretty much all powerful entities that exist across 5 different branes/strings/whatever all at once and can, at will, teleport vast distances by tunneling through hyperspace while rewriting local space due to infinitesimally fine control of their fields, and who can, on a whim, delve into a 10 billion year journey through a universe whose physical laws they dictate that they call the like MaximumFunSpace or whatever... so sometimes they like to grandstand, because otherwise the real world would be really boring.
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Oct 29, 2015 17:35
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Infinite Fun Space. MaximumFunSpace presumably comes preloaded with a few episodes of My Brother, My Brother and Me and Judge John Hodgman
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Oct 30, 2015 00:08
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It's mostly the warships that are braggarts anyway, furthering the theme of them being misanthropic at best. GSVs seem to range from "sympathetic and nice" to "stuffy and a bit boring" for the most part.
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Oct 30, 2015 00:54
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:GSVs seem to range from "sympathetic and nice" to "stuffy and a bit boring" for the most part. Pretty sure these are one and the same, it just depends on who's describing them.
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Oct 30, 2015 00:59
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MikeJF posted:Pretty sure these are one and the same, it just depends on who's describing them. Counterpoint, most of the Interesting Times Gang were GSVs or GCUs, who immediately kick out the boring Wisdom Like Silence (GSV) who was initially dealing with things. Gravitas Shortfall fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Oct 30, 2015 |
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Oct 30, 2015 13:40
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And the ITG could by definition be described as 'falling outside the norm' by virtue of what they get up to. The majority of basic GSV are happy to just wander the galaxy, pursuing their own interests and not warranting having a story written about them at all. Basically, we only see the weirdos, because the regular Joes in Ship terms rarely get screen time.
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Oct 30, 2015 14:09
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LSV Reality Perception Inhibitor
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Oct 31, 2015 03:11
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Shockeh posted:And the ITG could by definition be described as 'falling outside the norm' by virtue of what they get up to. The majority of basic GSV are happy to just wander the galaxy, pursuing their own interests and not warranting having a story written about them at all. Basically, we only see the weirdos, because the regular Joes in Ship terms rarely get screen time. Basically the same reason we tend to see Special Circumstance agents.
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Oct 31, 2015 13:11
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I've gotten into the Culture Novels, first Player of Games, then Consider Phlebas, and now going through the Use of Weapons (sadly spoiled about the ending). I'm not usually into sci-fi at all, but Banks' combination of absurdity, violence, and the profound hits the right notes. His use of titles for less-developed civilizations is kind of weird though (Gerontocrat, Ethnarch). It's like he was going through a list. Will I get to read about a Kleptocracy soon? BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 13:08 on Nov 1, 2015 |
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Nov 1, 2015 13:04
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I always got the impression the ludicrous titles the smaller species give themselves were attempt to puff themselves up in a 'THE GRAND IMPERIUM OF MANKIND' kind of way, whereas the big-leaguers like The Culture or the Morthanveld or whoever, confident in their place in the galaxy were happy just to go by their species name and let their reputations speak for themselves
No Dignity fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Nov 1, 2015 |
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Nov 1, 2015 13:59
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I can also understand wanting to distinguish them, but I hope there's nothing worse than "Hegemonarchy" ( ). Use of Weapons felt like a slight thematic retread, but I think the focus on the civilian side of things made it stronger. Consider Phlebas was about war, folly, and individuals in a vast universe, Player of Games was about the dysfunctions of hierachic society, but Use of Weapons manages to balance those while still exploring more. The prose feel more mature, too, and less concerned with the whizbang baroque-ness of the universe.
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Nov 1, 2015 18:27
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Consider Phlebas doesn't get into the Culture itself much. As a result, Player of Games is the first 'real' inside-the-Culture Culture novel, so he's feeling very introductory and universe-exploring during it. And then there's a second stylistic leap that happens during his 2000-2008 break. Make sure you read the ones from before that first, I think. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Nov 1, 2015 |
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Nov 1, 2015 23:30
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I can also understand wanting to distinguish them, but I hope there's nothing worse than "Hegemonarchy" ( Use of Weapons, to the best of my knowledge, was the first Culture novel he wrote. His original draft was extremely complicated, and he let it sit for a while while he published Consider Phlebas and The Player of Games. One of the things I love about Use of Weapons is that the universe he builds serves as the necessary setting for him to explore Zakalwe as a character, the imaginative and charming Culture seems to have grown out of that naturally.
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Nov 11, 2015 03:32
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I just finished Excession and I have some questions: Why are there seemingly two different plots both aimed at getting Genar-Hofoen onto the Sleeper Service? Ulver Seich is convinced to impersonate Dajeil, so he can be kidnapped, and taken to the Sleeper Service. I'm pretty sure this plot is run by SC, as bringing Genar to the Service is the condition for the Sleeper Service's "awakening". So why, then, is Genar told the lie about the stored ship captain who previously encountered an artifact similar to the Excession? This part seems to be the doing of the conspiracy - Sleeper goes through its messages at the end and figures it out from seeing the drone talk to Genar's uncle, or whatever. It also tells Genar it didn't use the ship captain story as his bait. So why, then, does the conspiracy want Genar on the Sleeper Service...? Or are both these plots the doing of the conspiracy? I questioned why SC would involve someone like Ulver Seich, who's a huge liability, due to her basic immaturity. It sort of felt like it was intended for her to blow the cover on the plan, in a way. Pretty much anyone could be made to resemble Dajeil, so why Ulver? Is Phage Rock also part of the conspiracy, and they needed a conspirator's help to move their bait around?
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Nov 25, 2015 17:05
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shallowj posted:I just finished Excession and I have some questions: PRETTY MUCH COMPLETE SPOILERS FOR EXCESSION BELOW I thought the Sleeper Service admitted that it did the whole thing pretty much on its own to bring reconciliation to Dajeil because SS felt that it had played a role in stunting the growth of a person so thoroughly by making a bad call on Genar-Hofoen's admission onto the original mission. I figured also that SC/ITG might have gotten a little nervous that their extreme faux-eccentric had gone actual-eccentric and wouldn't be around to help with the OCP that the Excession presented so they tried to throw Genar over there, because I'm sure the ITG is made up of Minds clever enough to realize that Dajeil was uniquely important to SS, especially since I'm pretty sure the only ships SS ever spoke to really during its faux-eccentricity were ITG dudes. Basically, both the ITG and the SS itself were trying to bring together whatever it took to get Genar there in order to prepare for SS's potential death if it had to meganuke the Excession and suicide itself into it to save the universe. At least that's my take, but I just finished it too and may still be processing.
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Nov 25, 2015 17:45
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More Excession spoilers: Ok, I re-read and I get it now: Serious Callers Only, who's working to uncover the conspiracy within the Interesting Times Gang, is who sends Ulver Seich to Tier. The goal is to intercept Genar-Hofoen and PREVENT him from reaching the SS, so the conspiracy can't mobilize the SS. I missed the part on why that plan fails: the ship sent from Phage to deliver Ulver and pick up Ulver & Genar changes plans after war is declared. It asks Steely Glint for directions, and SG, a conspirator, directs it to leave the system, leaving Genar & Ulver to be picked up by Gray Area and delivered to the SS. Ulver, an amateur, is used b/c Serious Callers can't risk involving trained SC personnel, I guess. The conspiracy wants Genar on the SS as per SS's conditions for "awakening". For some reason, I thought Special Circumstances, not the conspiracy, was running that scheme, not realizing the SS's true nature is, I suppose, only known to the Interesting Times Gang?
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Nov 25, 2015 21:31
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Red Crown posted:Use of Weapons, to the best of my knowledge, was the first Culture novel he wrote. His original draft was extremely complicated, and he let it sit for a while while he published Consider Phlebas and The Player of Games. One of the things I love about Use of Weapons is that the universe he builds serves as the necessary setting for him to explore Zakalwe as a character, the imaginative and charming Culture seems to have grown out of that naturally. Consider Phlebas makes more sense then, it seems to assume that the reader is familiar with and invested in the Culture. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 14:11 on Nov 26, 2015 |
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Nov 26, 2015 13:59
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Excession was available on U.S. Kindle in October but seems to have gone missing again.
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Dec 2, 2015 20:32
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It was a lovely scanned version being sold by somebody other than the publisher. It literally has "Scanned by HugHug" as the first line of it.
Khizan fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Dec 2, 2015 |
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Dec 2, 2015 20:36
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Khizan posted:It was a lovely scanned version being sold by somebody other than the publisher. It literally has "Scanned by HugHug" as the first line of it.  Wow. I'm amazed Amazon let that through.
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Dec 5, 2015 07:30
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