Ferrinus posted:Sorry, I meant to write "bullass" Oh, well that makes up for it. Carry on.
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Oct 28, 2015 16:52
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Exmond posted:So uhh, whats good about 3rd edition? Last two pages seem to be making GBS threads on it. It's not bad, it's just the things about it which are dumb could have been fixed so easily that they become infuriating out of proportion to their significance. Like how a paper cut hurts more than having your finger chopped off.
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Oct 28, 2015 16:53
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Exmond posted:So uhh, whats good about 3rd edition? Last two pages seem to be making GBS threads on it. It's easily and unquestionably the best edition of Exalted. If Exalted is compelling to you (the high power level, the huge and intricate setting, the mishmash of aesthetics and genres that blows most other fantasy games out of the water for variety and depth) then I'd cheerfully recommend third edition. That said, there's a lot of reasons not to like Exalted and a lot of reasons to be bitter or annoyed that Exalted isn't different in some way, but if you ever wanted to play Exalted, now you can.
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Oct 28, 2015 16:54
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Also, on the matter of conversation flow, the fact is that criticism is just a more interesting and deeper well of discussion then people cooing over the thing they just bought, so it's inevitably going to come up more often unless people are hypervigilant about only being nice.
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Oct 28, 2015 16:56
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Bedlamdan posted:I'd even go so far as to label it "pretty good" rather than "just decent" IMO 
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Oct 28, 2015 17:00
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So I just realized that with Surprise Anticipation Method, you can eventually have all your Indefinite-duration Awareness Charms turned on forever for free.Dammit Who? posted:It's not bad, it's just the things about it which are dumb could have been fixed so easily that they become infuriating out of proportion to their significance. Like how a paper cut hurts more than having your finger chopped off. This is a good way to put it.
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Oct 28, 2015 17:01
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Bedlamdan posted:I'd even go so far as to label it "pretty good" rather than "just decent" IMO 
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Oct 28, 2015 17:01
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Roadie posted:Heck, pull from public domain art if you really need to fill some space that badly. the people making exalted don't have the taste or good sense to draw from public domain stuff.
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Oct 28, 2015 17:48
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If I made an awareness supernal blind exalt, how close will I be able to be either Toph or Zatoichi?
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Oct 28, 2015 17:57
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Oct 28, 2015 17:59
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Ferrinus posted:That Lore is about collaborative storytelling and making things up about the setting because you'd prefer they be true, rather than about knowing things or figuring them out, pisses me off !! Ferrinus posted:Oops, I wasn't erudite enough for something fortunate to be true, so something unfortunate is true instead. I'm playing a real RPG and not some hacky Creation World bullcrap. Are you mocking the system or me not getting the system or something else entirely  SunAndSpring posted:Hmm, maybe if you fail a roll to introduce a fact that the storyteller is ok with, the fact should still be introduced but come with some sort of caveat? Like, failing a roll to introduce a fact that there's a Liminal operating in your area that might be sympathetic to your cause will still have that Liminal running around, but you fail to know that the Liminal is a wanted man and has a posse of Wyld Hunters on his rear end? That would be far more interesting to a story than a flat yes/no, but it still doesn't sound like Lore. I feel like a large chunk of Lore charms (the essence-lending set, for one example) belong in Occult, and the rest could go elsewhere or just be removed. Lore looked cool at first read but it seems to be falling apart the more I think about it.
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Oct 28, 2015 18:00
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Echo Cian posted:Are you mocking the system or me not getting the system or something else entirely I'm mocking the system, and do not like it. It appears to be a lazy afterthought slipped into the book in place of an actual, satisfying knowledge skill - the mechanics revolve almost completely about causing things to happen such that your character appears to an outside observer to be highly learned, but almost completely fail to allow you, through your character, to actually engage with the setting as though it were full of lore that you were competent to recall or puzzle out. It's also pretty funny that there's just one Lore skill, period, and you sort of have to declare in a wishy washy way what it does or doesn't cover and can maybe expand that scope with specialties or maybe can't, and at the same time you're expected to buy six different Craft skills and distinguish precisely between Brawl and Melee and so on.
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Oct 28, 2015 18:11
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Ferrinus posted:That Lore is about collaborative storytelling and making things up about the setting because you'd prefer they be true, rather than about knowing things or figuring them out, pisses me off !! That's why I love Investigation, you get to actually figure things out.
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Oct 28, 2015 18:54
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Thug Lessons posted:That's why I love Investigation, you get to actually figure things out. Okay here's my idea for the combat system, you roll Dexterity + Melee and your number of successes determines how cool the opponent that you conjure and instantly slay looks.
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Oct 28, 2015 18:55
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Ferrinus posted:Okay here's my idea for the combat system, you roll Dexterity + Melee and your number of successes determines how cool the opponent that you conjure and instantly slay looks. I'd like to have a way to make knowing things a proactive thing you can do, skills like awareness and lore leave me feeling pretty cold normally.
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Oct 28, 2015 19:01
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Nihnoz posted:I'd like to have a way to make knowing things a proactive thing you can do, skills like awareness and lore leave me feeling pretty cold normally. Ideally there'd be a lot of immediately-useful sample applications like "figure out where someone is from", "predict this city-state's future actions", etc. You could even go the extra mile and make that kind of stuff explicitly grant bonuses or penalties to other actions rather than just force the Storyteller to tell you facts and commit to them. Lore's actually-existing bullshit detection power is a good start, at least.
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Oct 28, 2015 19:04
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It's written the way it is to provide hooks for Lore Charms for eight or nine different splats. I've been thinking about some of them, and I came up with an idea of an Abyssal Lore Charm that punishes people for challenging your facts and failing by forcing them to adopt your underlying premises, so that it would be all: ABYSSAL: So, Dragon-Blooded can't be the rightful rulers of Creation, because they don't have souls. IMMACULATE: I don't think that's true. (rolls to challenge) ABYSSAL: (rolls so many Lore successes it's not even funny) Well, it's written that they don't in Expensive And Impressive Obscure Book By Pasiap Himself... (goes on at length to demonstrate their superior erudition with lots of genuine-sounding references) IMMACULATE: Oh, no! Dragon-Blooded don't have souls! The ultimate effect would be people just declining to dispute your facts, but that's also a win for the Abyssal in this scenario.
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Oct 28, 2015 19:15
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It seems to me like the ultimate effect is that Dragon-Blooded no longer canonically have souls, except for such an outrageous non-reason that it serves as a running joke rather than a story element.
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Oct 28, 2015 19:17
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Ferrinus posted:It seems to me like the ultimate effect is that Dragon-Blooded no longer canonically have souls, except for such an outrageous non-reason that it serves as a running joke rather than a story element. Well, the book is prefaced by a Mearls-style Rule 0, so presumably the Storyteller vetoes such things. This is much worse than in dnd5, though, because the thing-you're-ignoring is so much more pointlessly baroque.
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Oct 28, 2015 19:22
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I wasn't actually assuming that the use of Lore in this case resulted in Dragon-Blooded having no souls, because that's the kind of thing that the ST will veto, but for purposes of a Charm where you break down the beliefs of people who disagree with you it doesn't matter.
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Oct 28, 2015 19:24
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The problem is that it's all fakery. It's impressive if your credentials have so much dread power that people suffer physical pain or even death when they try to challenge your findings, but the fact that your findings themselves are the product of a game of Calvinball undermines the whole business. Like, I fully do expect to see Lore-as-retroactive-reality-editing-tool, but I specifically expect to see it somewhere in the Sidereal and/or Getimian charmsets (it sounds like Getimeans are all about replacing the existing past and present with mutated parallel versions of same) rather than in the core game rules.
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Oct 28, 2015 19:29
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Ferrinus posted:The problem is that it's all fakery. It's impressive if your credentials have so much dread power that people suffer physical pain or even death when they try to challenge your findings, but the fact that your findings themselves are the product of a game of Calvinball undermines the whole business. Like, I fully do expect to see Lore-as-retroactive-reality-editing-tool, but I specifically expect to see it somewhere in the Sidereal and/or Getimian charmsets (it sounds like Getimeans are all about replacing the existing past and present with mutated parallel versions of same) rather than in the core game rules. Eh, I think it's cool. Mind you, when John started asking for inspirations for Lore Charms I leapt on top him and began repeatedly beating him over the head with copies of Weapons of the Gods in each hand, so my only regret is that the system doesn't incorporate even more Predictionism.
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Oct 28, 2015 19:31
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I like Weapons of the Gods predictionism, and I actually like how the existing lore charms play out, but it's in no way incompatible with the idea that the setting is out there for your character to discover rather than an co-star in a commercial advertising your character's greatness. If "introduce a fact" was instead "contextualize a fact" or "explain a fact" or "extrapolate from a fact", and the number of successes you got determined how detailed the information you could pull out of your Storyteller was an what kind of bonuses you could draw from capitalizing on it (or what kind of penalties other characters would have if they tried to ignore it or act in a contradictory way - e.g. you determine that your rival city-state has a really lovely army, so if you end up fighting that city-state's army, you have weight to put behind the demand that they suck), then you could use your Lore skill in a satisfying and proactive way that wasn't totally orthogonal with all the rest of the game's mechanics. There's some weird passive-aggressive tension implied in the default examples of "introduce a fact", too, where like the player obviously knows that Kejak's behind it all, and wants their character to know it, but the Storyteller doesn't want them to know it yet, so there's this tacit roll vs. veto tug of war... it's unpleasant to imagine a session actually playing out like that.
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Oct 28, 2015 19:41
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As someone who actually has played it, it is in fact super fun and cool.
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Oct 28, 2015 19:44
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Yeah, it's no big surprise to me that you love the brand, buddy. As someone who has played games with real knowledge skills in them, I can tell you that it is better to engage fully and sincerely with the setting and history my Storyteller's worked to realize, and be rewarded for my investment by gaining actionable insight into that setting, rather than to bedeck that setting with little glamour photos of my character.
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Oct 28, 2015 19:46
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Ferrinus posted:Yeah, it's no big surprise to me that you love the brand, buddy. As someone who has played games with real knowledge skills in them, I can tell you that it is better to engage fully and sincerely with the setting and history my Storyteller's worked to realize, and be rewarded for my investment by gaining actionable insight into that setting, rather than to bedeck that setting with little glamour photos of my character. Replace "the brand" with "4e" and "games with real knowledge skills in them" with "D&D", and you'd have some real good grog there.
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Oct 28, 2015 19:50
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It's true, when you change the words in a post they mean different things.
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Oct 28, 2015 19:51
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I'm going to introduce the fact that y'all should quit slapfighting. Rand, tell us about how it worked out in play for you?
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Oct 28, 2015 19:51
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Rand Brittain posted:Replace "the brand" with "4e" and "games with real knowledge skills in them" with "D&D", and you'd have some real good grog there. Really? Could you explain in more depth, because to my recollection no edition of Dungeons and Dragons contained knowledge skills whose primary use was making things up rather than learning actually-existing information, and also it's actually Exalted 3rd edition that was written by someone who thought that 4e was dumbed-down baby crap whose noncombat skill mechanics just weren't involved or realistic enough to allow for the genuine representation of certain kinds of characters.
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Oct 28, 2015 19:54
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RiotGearEpsilon posted:I'm going to introduce the fact that y'all should quit slapfighting. Rand, tell us about how it worked out in play for you? I'm gonna veto that; people making fun of Rand Brittain's brand advocacy is integral to the Exalted Thread Setting.
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Oct 28, 2015 19:54
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RiotGearEpsilon posted:I'm going to introduce the fact that y'all should quit slapfighting. Isn't that what we were JUST talking about
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Oct 28, 2015 19:54
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RiotGearEpsilon posted:I'm going to introduce the fact that y'all should quit slapfighting. Rand, tell us about how it worked out in play for you? I roll to challenge the fact... no successes. I played as Sleeping Dog, the scholar with a number of moderate flaws in his character, and I was just awake enough to attend a meeting when the prince of Nechara gathered together for the traditional game of "look if you're going to be a Solar Circle in my city I want you to understand that being the quest-giving-NPC is my royal prerogative." I took specialities in Local History and Hilarious Anecdotes, and my first fact was to establish that the palace was supposedly honeycombed with secret passages, some known and some not. You never know when you might want a convenient secret passage! While talking with the Prince, he tried to make a good impression by using his magical golden hypno-eyes, as princes do. I sleepily related a story I once heard about a man with similar magical eyes, and about how a beggar spoke seven words that made them fall out and roll away. The ST got really excited about this and started making notes about having this vulnerability come up at a later time. Later on, we went to investigate some mysterious murders and found ourselves beset by zombies. Being the least combat-capable (I probably should have held off on the Shrike line and bought some more kung-fu at chargen), I climbed on top of a box and began throwing knives and making some kind of technobabble about undead Essence flows in order to give myself a combat advantage; I forget what it was. Anyway, the moral of the story is that Solar Lore is the power to be right all the time, and it's great.
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Oct 28, 2015 19:58
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Ferrinus posted:Really? Could you explain in more depth, because to my recollection no edition of Dungeons and Dragons contained knowledge skills whose primary use was making things up rather than learning actually-existing information, and also it's actually Exalted 3rd edition that was written by someone who thought that 4e was dumbed-down baby crap whose noncombat skill mechanics just weren't involved or realistic enough to allow for the genuine representation of certain kinds of characters. My comment refers to the fact that you are replying to the statement "well, I had fun" with "ah, you think that, but I know better" which is a classic grog motif.
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Oct 28, 2015 19:59
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Rand Brittain posted:Anyway, the moral of the story is that Solar Lore is the power to be right all the time, and it's great. Imagine if you didn't need magic powers to be right all the time, and wanted your magic powers to let you learn things rather than act like you'd learned things, though.
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Oct 28, 2015 20:00
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Attorney at Funk posted:Imagine if you didn't need magic powers to be right all the time, Well, you can be right often without using magic. quote:and wanted your magic powers to let you learn things rather than act like you'd learned things, though. Go play some game that does that, then? There's lots! You seem to be implying that Exalted has a responsibility to use the approach you prefer, but, well, it doesn't, and I prefer it the way it is, so.
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Oct 28, 2015 20:02
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Rand Brittain posted:My comment refers to the fact that you are replying to the statement "well, I had fun" with "ah, you think that, but I know better" which is a classic grog motif. That's not what I said at all. If I didn't believe you enjoyed this wet fart of a game mechanic it'd imply much greater respect for your taste than I actually have.
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Oct 28, 2015 20:03
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Rand Brittain posted:Well, you can be right often without using magic. Speaking of classic grog tropes.
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Oct 28, 2015 20:04
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Say, here's a solution to the "what if I can't find some quick problem to fix with my Craft every scene because I need points" problem! Use Lore to EDIT: This will not be annoying to the other players at all!
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Oct 28, 2015 20:05
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Rand Brittain posted:Go play some game that does that, then? There's lots! In Exalted, Melee doesn't conjure opponents which immediately throw the fight to you, and Crafts doesn't summon fully-equipped soldiers who proceed to thank you for their gear, and Ride doesn't make vast roads and fields uncoil behind you such that you appear to have traversed them to get to wherever you're standing. It's actually only Lore whose mechanics attempt to do a complete end-run around the basic workflow of the Storyteller presenting a situation and your character using their established capabilities to engage with that situation. So, it's actually entirely legitimate to criticize the (almost - there is the ability to tell that someone's lying, although amusingly enough it's actually impossible to respond to "Introduce a Fact" with "Challenge a Fact" since the former renders something true and the latter requires something to be false) total lack of detailed systems for use of knowledge skills, given that all the other realms of competence appear to have had actual if sometimes misguided work put into their design.
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Oct 28, 2015 20:20
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I haven't played any other systems besides FATE Core and FAE, actually. I just know that this Lore system sucks Ferrinus posted:There's some weird passive-aggressive tension implied in the default examples of "introduce a fact", too, where like the player obviously knows that Kejak's behind it all, and wants their character to know it, but the Storyteller doesn't want them to know it yet, so there's this tacit roll vs. veto tug of war... it's unpleasant to imagine a session actually playing out like that. Because of stuff like that. Your points are pretty much the things I thought of on rereading that system. Rand Brittain those are some neat examples. Too bad they're not in the book in order to understand what the point of the fact system even is! Right now it either needs to be made clearer or removed because it's in some kind of half-developed state that doesn't give a solid idea of what they even intend with it (introducing setting facts in a setting that's already developed and has internal rules? trying to advance the plot unless you do it wrong?), yet there are charms for the thing that the ST can veto, and all I can think of is how much they were trying to reduce the wordcount...
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Oct 28, 2015 20:20
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