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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:I think it makes a lot of sense for Ride charmset to let you get to some of the juicy parts of Dodge/Athletics/Survival for less investment/a different favored Caste ability (or as your Supernal ability), in return for tying it in to an animal friend. Same for Sail and its respective thematic abilities. Nearly any "boost your mount" charms would be better served in Survival. Actually gently caress it. Take animal stuff out of survival, get rid of Ride and replace it with Animal Handling. Make a riding branch in the charm tree. Problem solved, same number of abilities.
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Oct 28, 2015 20:45
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Is there any good single word for an animals-related skill, anyway?
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Oct 28, 2015 20:53
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Mendrian posted:Nearly any "boost your mount" charms would be better served in Survival. Actually gently caress it. Take animal stuff out of survival, get rid of Ride and replace it with Animal Handling. Make a riding branch in the charm tree. Problem solved, same number of abilities. I want that skill called Animal Ken, who is also the Lunar mate of Bonfire Barbie. yes I know I made this exact joke the last time this came up, and no I don't care Roadie posted:Is there any good single word for an animals-related skill, anyway? Husbandry 
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Oct 28, 2015 20:54
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One thing I realized last night was that, since succeeding at the binding roll on the "Demon of the _____ Circle" spells sets the demon's Resolve to 0 against all social influence, you can do stuff like summon Ligier and make him love Creation almost automatically.
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Oct 28, 2015 20:57
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Ferrinus posted:Yeah, it's no big surprise to me that you love the brand, buddy. As someone who has played games with real knowledge skills in them, I can tell you that it is better to engage fully and sincerely with the setting and history my Storyteller's worked to realize, and be rewarded for my investment by gaining actionable insight into that setting, rather than to bedeck that setting with little glamour photos of my character. Cool, ask your GM to limit lore skills when you play. I don't mind interacting with the gameworld and being able to make stuff up on the fly.
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Oct 28, 2015 21:06
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Roadie posted:Is there any good single word for an animals-related skill, anyway?
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Oct 28, 2015 21:06
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Roadie posted:So I just realized that with Surprise Anticipation Method, you can eventually have all your Indefinite-duration Awareness Charms turned on forever for free. Yeah, the baffling thing is that the exalted devs can write a combat system that balances Weird Manuever poo poo like disarms and grapples and makes rounds of whiffing fun and active contribution to the battle instead of a pointless game of rocket tag, yet you still have a 50xp bonus on someone else if you were enough of a moron to not go 5-1 in every attribute you could.
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Oct 28, 2015 21:12
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Exmond posted:Cool, ask your GM to limit lore skills when you play. I don't mind interacting with the gameworld and being able to make stuff up on the fly. Until your Storyteller read the Lore rules, you were able to do that without first paying a lot of XP for the privilege.
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Oct 28, 2015 21:13
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With a lot of GMs, you wouldn't be, and having it explicity written into the rules is cool?
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Oct 28, 2015 21:23
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No, because it's written into the system in such a way that you are charged XP for the privilege of being allowed to collaborate and in such a way that replaces what could have been actual rules for acquiring and promulgating knowledge. It could've been explicitly written into the rules in the section about general scene framing or the storytelling chapter or whatever, but instead it ensures that the competence of a character who has Lore is forever faker and more nebulous than the competence of a character who has Craft or Occult or even Bureaucracy.
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Oct 28, 2015 21:27
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DERIVED ATTRIBUTES ARE NOT MENTIONED IN THE CHARGEN SUMMARY. I'm also sure that the old equipment list was easier because holy gently caress.
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Oct 28, 2015 21:33
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Most Lore charms are still pretty good, at least. I get that Introducing a Fact can turn into a game of "GM May I?" and there's not much to support traditional applications of Lore, but still, solid charm set overall.
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Oct 28, 2015 21:43
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Ferrinus posted:Until your Storyteller read the Lore rules, you were able to do that without first paying a lot of XP for the privilege. Yeah I think this is kind of my issue with it. I love games where there's more player input into world creation and such, but having it be something that you need to invest actual XP and stuff into is kind of weird to me. "I'm sorry Andrew, that rad idea you came up with isn't happening because you wanted to be able to punch people."
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Oct 28, 2015 21:56
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Prison Warden posted:Yeah I think this is kind of my issue with it. I love games where there's more player input into world creation and such, but having it be something that you need to invest actual XP and stuff into is kind of weird to me. "I'm sorry Andrew, that rad idea you came up with isn't happening because you wanted to be able to punch people." Just as you can punch people without purchasing punch charms, you can propose facts and ideas without the proposal charms. The difference is in how much authority you have to do so - the distinction between being a petitioner and being an editor.
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Oct 28, 2015 21:58
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There's also no guidance whatsoever for what difficulty various declarations should have, or even what kind of considerations are supposed to go into determining the difficulty in the first place. Is it how convenient the fact would be? How hard the fact would be to hypothetically know? How counter to existing assumptions that fact seems on its face? How powerful is the most immediate character who would prefer that fact not be true? And the fact that the entire thing's ultimately a game of mother may I means it's all a wash. The Lore charms are for the most part great, though, and a few of them use mechanics that should really be part of the function of the actual base skill.
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Oct 28, 2015 22:00
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Ferrinus posted:No, because it's written into the system in such a way that you are charged XP for the privilege of being allowed to collaborate and in such a way that replaces what could have been actual rules for acquiring and promulgating knowledge. It could've been explicitly written into the rules in the section about general scene framing or the storytelling chapter or whatever, but instead it ensures that the competence of a character who has Lore is forever faker and more nebulous than the competence of a character who has Craft or Occult or even Bureaucracy. How is Lore "faker" than any other system? Exalted Lore: Lore Player: "I roll to introduce a fact, that this kingdom just finished a long war with Neighboria. 6 successes" ST: "Okay, that does it. You remember reading about the war, and the bitterness felt by both sides that persists even after the conflict has ended" How You Want It: Lore Player: "I roll Lore to see what I know about the kingdom. 6 successes" ST: "Okay, that does it. You remember reading about a long war with Neighboria that just finished, and the bitterness felt by both sides that persists even after the conflict has ended" Neither requires any charms, both ends with "Lore player knows useful information about this kingdom". Just because something wasn't planned out by the all-powerful ST in accordance with the Perfect Plan and Setting doesn't make it faker or less fun. Players can contribute and collaborate in shaping the world and story, rather than just being passive observer to the One True Vision of the ST.
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Oct 28, 2015 22:08
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Kaza42 posted:How is Lore "faker" than any other system? However, players should not have to pay experience points for the privilege of collaboration in shaping the world and story, when in all other cases they instead pay experience points in order to increase the really-existing and consistently-modeled capabilities of their characters. Like, dude, what the gently caress. I answered this very same "you're just some kind of evil authoritarian" ploy on this very page of the thread. I shouldn't leave it there, though. Remember, there's a key difference between the two procedures you just outlined: in the first one, even as LP is reaching for their dice, ST can say "Nope, veto. Try again."
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Oct 28, 2015 22:16
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I think the issue is that Exalted has always presented itself as being somewhat closer to the "hexcrawl" school, where ultimately there is a reality that is in the GM hands which is gradually unveiled. There is plenty of room for dramatic editing, of course, this is a large part of how stunts have worked... but it seems as though these Charms are structured in such a way that they introduce narrative-style "aha, but I am using my magic to introduce this clever thing" which is not, generally, the case in other fields. This is not bad so much as being a very different flavor and kind of strange in the middle of the Solar Lore Charms. It sounds like it would fit perfectly in the Sidereal charm set, or if it was some kind of "Did you ever hear the tale of This poo poo I Just Made Up?" leading to some persistent mental influence or strange coincidence creation.
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Oct 28, 2015 22:18
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We're not actually talking about Lore charms. We're talking about the basic and first-listed usage of the Lore skill, available to gods and rice farmers alike. In fact, very few of the published Lore charms actually use the "introduce a fact" mechanic or elaborate on it.
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Oct 28, 2015 22:20
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I could actually agree with that; I'd be happy if predictionism effects like Prophet of Seventeen Cycles were available everybody and you had WotG-style fights between dueling prophecies.
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Oct 28, 2015 22:24
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It is actually impossible for there to be fights between dueling prophecies because the "Challenge a fact" action cannot challenge facts introduced by the "Introduce a fact" action. In other news, I finally discovered why the do-nothing Martial Artist merit is rated at an entire four dots: the book posted:Purchased: In addition to being purchased at character creation as normal, these Merits may be purchased or advanced for (new rating x 3) experience points during play. You don’t have to pay for ratings that don’t do anything, and so Boundless Endurance (••) would cost 6 experience, not 9. Purchased Merits with variable ratings must be bought in sequence. I love it. I loving love it. It's delicious. I feed on this poo poo.
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Oct 28, 2015 22:29
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So it sounds like whoever goes first in declaring fact gets to create reality itself, while other people can edit and revise but cannot originate de novo? There is no "I Reject Your Reality and Substitute My Own," eh? So in the end what matters is your Academic Initative.
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Oct 28, 2015 22:30
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Hmm, I really should just get rid of the MA merit in my game altogether and just make dots in the MA skill what you need to do that poo poo.
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Oct 28, 2015 22:40
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Solar teaching skills like Lore; NPCs don't use XP, right? How do I actually help them via the tutoring charm? Or is tutoring only an in-party effect?
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Oct 28, 2015 22:42
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spectralent posted:Solar teaching skills like Lore; NPCs don't use XP, right? How do I actually help them via the tutoring charm? Or is tutoring only an in-party effect? You have to commit whatever amount of XP it would cost to teach them; they just get the skill instead of acquiring XP. (The Charm is written in a slightly confusing way; I had to read it several times to catch that you do get all your XP back eventually and not just some.)
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Oct 28, 2015 22:44
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As the most sophisticated player in my one Ex3 game, the task naturally fell to me to play the Twilight. I didn't mind the Fact Introduction rules - in fact it made a lot of sense to me, as a logical way to let players without the sourcebooks meaningfully portray wise scholars without having to deal with know-it-all bookreaders. That said: I never rolled Lore in the half-dozen or so sessions. I would also take strong issue with Ferrinus' characterization of Lore as unfairly gating collaborative worldbuilding behind XP. Crushing some nerd's windpipe for annoying you is equally worldbuildy as adding a new line to Gem's wikipedia page, and requires an XP investment. Whats more I can already see how Lore fact introduction as-is is well-suited to Sidereal manipulation etc. Additionally: Bureaucracy is the place where true "roll to add a Rule", Nomic-style charms should exist. But I don't mind it being in the Fact section at all.
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Oct 28, 2015 22:47
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:I would also take strong issue with Ferrinus' characterization of Lore as unfairly gating collaborative worldbuilding behind XP. Crushing some nerd's windpipe for annoying you is equally worldbuildy as adding a new line to Gem's wikipedia page, and requires an XP investment. Killing NPCs in-game is not worldbuilding.
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Oct 28, 2015 22:50
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Ferrinus posted:Killing NPCs in-game is not worldbuilding.
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Oct 28, 2015 22:55
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Nessus posted:It is for Abyssals. Or if it's Peleps Deled.
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Oct 28, 2015 22:57
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Rand Brittain posted:You have to commit whatever amount of XP it would cost to teach them; they just get the skill instead of acquiring XP. So, wait, you get the charm spent XP back, but also roll dice to get... more XP at the end of story? I'm confused?
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Oct 28, 2015 23:06
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spectralent posted:So, wait, you get the charm spent XP back, but also roll dice to get... more XP at the end of story? I'm confused? You commit the XP, and then at the end of the story you make a roll and get XP back equal to the number of successes. Getting more successes means you get the XP back faster, not that you get more. (or you can use some of the Charms that build on Flowing Mind Prana that actually will let you get more back)
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Oct 28, 2015 23:24
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I'm not sure you're intended to get to roll in Story 2 to get back XP you spent in Story 2 and in Story 1. If you were, at the very least it would say "equal to experience points spent on this Charm and not already recovered" or something.
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Oct 28, 2015 23:30
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Ferrinus posted:I'm not sure you're intended to get to roll in Story 2 to get back XP you spent in Story 2 and in Story 1. If you were, at the very least it would say "equal to experience points spent on this Charm and not already recovered" or something. That sounds like a really terrible investment, even if you gave up on educating NPCs and just buffed your circlemates.
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Oct 28, 2015 23:38
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Ferrinus posted:I'm not sure you're intended to get to roll in Story 2 to get back XP you spent in Story 2 and in Story 1. If you were, at the very least it would say "equal to experience points spent on this Charm and not already recovered" or something. Isn't that already covered by "but not beyond the total amount of experience she expended in training"?
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Oct 28, 2015 23:41
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Rand Brittain posted:That sounds like a really terrible investment, even if you gave up on educating NPCs and just buffed your circlemates. Oh, I completely agree, but that's completely in keeping with how cavalier the game gets with XP in general and if you take the super-generous interpretation then Tireless Learner Method goes from merely immoral to completely insane. Like, I spend 10 xp educating people on Story 1, so at the end of Story 1 I roll 10 (reroll failures once) dice to get XP back. I'm lucky and I get 11 XP back. Now, in Story 2, I spend 15 more XP educating people, so I roll 25 (reroll failures once) dice to get XP back, and get 20 XP back. In story 3, I spend 15 more XP, so at the end of that story I roll 40 (reroll failures once) dice...
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Oct 28, 2015 23:42
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Ferrinus posted:Oh, I completely agree, but that's completely in keeping with how cavalier the game gets with XP in general and if you take the super-generous interpretation then Tireless Learner Method goes from merely immoral to completely insane. I'm pretty sure in Story 2 you'd just roll 15 dice? Like, you only roll up to the amount of XP you have committed currently
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Oct 28, 2015 23:43
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It sounds like the complication here is that you can get twelve successes on ten dice. What happens then?
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Oct 28, 2015 23:47
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Nessus posted:It sounds like the complication here is that you can get twelve successes on ten dice. What happens then? If you just used Flowing Mind Prana it's capped at 10. However if you use Tireless Learner Method you get 12 back, because that's what Tireless Learner Method does.
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Oct 28, 2015 23:50
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SunAndSpring posted:Hmm, I really should just get rid of the MA merit in my game altogether and just make dots in the MA skill what you need to do that poo poo. The approach I like, inspired a bit by EarthScorpion's styles stuff, is to remove Martial Arts as an Ability altogether, have MA Charms use whatever Abilities are most relevant, and have a merit per style that unlocks those Charms but also gives a secondary benefit or benefits that mortals can get too. Then you can have mortal "supernatural martial artists" that have the one or two merit-granted abilities of the style but you don't have to worry about wedging Charms into a mortal charsheet, and a Solar who only ever gets a single MA isn't stuck with a major XP tax just because MA styles are flexible.
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Oct 28, 2015 23:58
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I'm taking the lesson here as "Don't use solar tutoring charms because you're just pointlessly pissing XP away for a narrative effect unless it's in-circle, and if it is it's probably still not great".
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Oct 29, 2015 00:01
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