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The Supreme Court posted:It depends how you interpret it; if the author meant it as unionism vs. Scottish nationalists (or the independence movement as a whole), I think it illustrates your point, i.e. EVEL is going to hurt the union, even without SNP involvement. That's a reasonable interpretation, but I'm pretty sure the artist has previously used the same lion to represent Scotland as a whole. Although, as often seems to happen with nationalists, the line between the independence movement and Scotland as a whole is often (intentionally) blurred. I think your interpretation is a bit too charitable- it seems to me to portray a simplistic nationalist perspective that emphasises division: a) Scotland is not "really" a part of the UK, and b) this "english" UK is aggressive and hostile to Scotland while Scotland is stoic/heroic etc.
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Oct 25, 2015 18:35
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The lion represents an independent Scotland or the overall Scottish independence movement, not necessarily Scotland as a whole. I took the cartoon to mean that EVEL, used by the Tories to "punish" Scotland for its GE returns, will ultimately end up harming the Union the Tories claim to want to protect so dearly.
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Oct 25, 2015 18:52
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Coohoolin posted:The lion represents an independent Scotland or the overall Scottish independence movement, not necessarily Scotland as a whole. I took the cartoon to mean that EVEL, used by the Tories to "punish" Scotland for its GE returns, will ultimately end up harming the Union the Tories claim to want to protect so dearly. This meaning doesn't work, or at least it's internally inconsistent. It requires its version of John Bull to at once signify both the Tories (who are using EVEL) and the Union (which will ultimately be harmed). Probably not coincidentally, its very common for nationalist rhetoric to imply that "Tories" and "the Union" are identical.
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Oct 25, 2015 19:08
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Niric posted:This meaning doesn't work, or at least it's internally inconsistent. It requires its version of John Bull to at once signify both the Tories (who are using EVEL) and the Union (which will ultimately be harmed). Probably not coincidentally, its very common for nationalist rhetoric to imply that "Tories" and "the Union" are identical. Well, loud and obnoxious Unionism has some obvious connections with Conservatism. I think you're nitpicking here.
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Oct 25, 2015 19:42
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Coohoolin posted:Well, loud and obnoxious Unionism has some obvious connections with Conservatism. I think you're nitpicking here. No, you're defending a badly designed cartoon because you think Unionism and the Tories are the same thing. They aren't.
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Oct 25, 2015 20:10
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Niric posted:No, you're defending a badly designed cartoon because you think Unionism and the Tories are the same thing. They aren't. Oh no a symbolic entity in a cartoon represents more than just one thing. You couldn't, for example, see it as Unionism being used by the Tories as an excuse or justification for their EVEL policy? You can't imagine any possible way the entities of conservatism and unionism might overlap?
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Oct 25, 2015 20:32
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Or... Scots are dangerous wild animals and the British government doesn't have a way to get them in line with the tools they have. A Vote BNP Cartoon.
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Oct 25, 2015 21:06
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Coohoolin posted:You couldn't, for example, see it as Unionism being used by the Tories as an excuse or justification for their EVEL policy? No, that reading doesn't really work. Let's unpack the cartoon a little bit and find out why. So, there's 3 elements in play: 1) John Bull, 2) the gun, 3) the lion. In the cartoon, John Bull is using the gun to threaten the lion, but unbeknownst to John Bull the gun will hurt him, not the lion. Now, how does the reading you propose work? You suggest above that three things are symbolised: 1) Unionism, 2) the Tories and 3) EVEL. Now, obviously, this doesn't map to the three elements in the cartoon, so we'll add a fourth from your other post: the scottish independence movement. You say the cartoon can be read as showing Unionism being used by the Tories, but the only element being used is the gun. So the gun, in that reading, represents unionism. Except, and hopefully we can all agree on this, the gun represents EVEL. So that's one problem. You also say that the cartoon shows unionism being used as an excuse or justification for EVEL. Now, consider that in terms of the cartoon. Is anything presented as excusing or justifying the gun? The existence of the lion is a threat (lions can be scary), so you could say it justifies John Bull using the gun. But you claim that the lion represents an independent Scotland or the independence movement, so that would mean it's the existence of the independence movement, not unionism, which justifies the gun (EVEL). That doesn't really fit with the idea that Unionism is being used to justify EVEL. There's also a problem in that the cartoon implies the user of gun intends it to damage or scare off the lion, so, according to your reading, EVEL (or the threat of EVEL) is being used to scare off or damage the independence movement. If, as you also claim, John Bull represents BOTH the Tories and Unionism, how is John Bull using John Bull to justify the gun? Niric fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Oct 25, 2015 |
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Oct 25, 2015 21:54
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The cartoon is representing England preparing to shoot itself while Scotland watches because it knows it will get screwed over again. Yep. It's a cartoon of the 2015 Rugby World Cup.
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Oct 25, 2015 21:56
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Niric posted:No, that reading doesn't really work. Let's unpack the cartoon a little bit and find out why. So, there's 3 elements in play: 1) John Bull, 2) the gun, 3) the lion. In the cartoon, John Bull is using the gun to threaten the lion, but unbeknownst to John Bull the gun will hurt him, not the lion. What. It's "Unionist party policy EVEL is designed to hurt Scottish independence movement but will ultimately backfire". John Bull can represent Westminster, the Tories (being the ruling party of the UK), the Union, Unionism, etc, all these things together, whatever. Your level of analysis reminds of the poetry textbook the kids tear up in Dead Poets Society.
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Oct 25, 2015 22:05
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Extreme0 posted:The cartoon is representing England preparing to shoot itself while Scotland watches because it knows it will get screwed over again. It's why the cartoon has to cut off above the lion's waist because it's getting hosed by a springbok
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Oct 25, 2015 22:09
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Coohoolin posted:What. Literally no one, anywhere, at any time, of any poltical persuasion, has believed or assumed or claimed that EVEL is designed to hurt the Scottish independence movement. Apart from you.
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Oct 25, 2015 22:14
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Niric posted:Literally no one, anywhere, at any time, of any poltical persuasion, has believed or assumed or claimed that EVEL is designed to hurt the Scottish independence movement. Apart from you. It's clearly a move that disenfranchises SNP MPs. That's not the only reason for EVEL, but it's definitely there.
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Oct 25, 2015 22:22
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Niric posted:It's why the cartoon has to cut off above the lion's waist because it's getting hosed by a springbok 
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Oct 25, 2015 22:38
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Coohoolin posted:It's clearly a move that disenfranchises SNP MPs. That's not the only reason for EVEL, but it's definitely there. It disenfranchises them on issues which, for the purposes of Scottish law, are decided by Scottish parliament, sure. There's nothing wrong with that.
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Oct 25, 2015 23:42
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Coohoolin posted:It's clearly a move that disenfranchises SNP MPs. That's not the only reason for EVEL, but it's definitely there. So now the lion represents SNP MPs specifically? This is why your interpretation falls apart with just a cursory critical glance; you have to keep adding new meanings to explain inconsistencies that only arise because of your initital interpretation. You want the lion to be the independence movement to explain why it's a threat, but using EVEL to attack the independence movement makes no sense, so you also want the lion to be SNP MPs specifically, even though the cartoon explicitly shows that EVEL will not affect the lion. You want John Bull to be the Tories to explain why he's wielding the gun, but a gun pointed at the Tories makes no sense, so you also want John Bull to represent unionism in general, but unionism using EVEL makes no sense. The problem, at root, is that it's just a lazy "Scotland good, UK bad" cartoon with a poorly executed central metaphor.
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Oct 25, 2015 23:59
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Niric posted:So now the lion represents SNP MPs specifically? This is why your interpretation falls apart with just a cursory critical glance; you have to keep adding new meanings to explain inconsistencies that only arise because of your initital interpretation. You want the lion to be the independence movement to explain why it's a threat, but using EVEL to attack the independence movement makes no sense, so you also want the lion to be SNP MPs specifically, even though the cartoon explicitly shows that EVEL will not affect the lion. You want John Bull to be the Tories to explain why he's wielding the gun, but a gun pointed at the Tories makes no sense, so you also want John Bull to represent unionism in general, but unionism using EVEL makes no sense. "I can't understand metaphors that might possibly be versatile."
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Oct 26, 2015 00:23
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Cliff Racer posted:It disenfranchises them on issues which, for the purposes of Scottish law, are decided by Scottish parliament, sure. There's nothing wrong with that. Thanks to the Barnet formula, any number of English only issues could have severe knock on effects to Scottish issues.
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Oct 26, 2015 00:24
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Cloud Potato posted:Sunday Telegraph: We're supposed to be incensed at Corbyn for turning back time, but literally the only bad things in this cartoon are the Winter of Discontent and the temporary effects of the strike. There's good films on at the cinema, we still have industry, Woolworths exists, it's the height of the punk movement, everyone (from refuse workers to punks and Ford Escort drivers) is opinionated on civic issues, and cops/buses look more iconic and interesting. Plus, you can apparently find random Rubik's cubes in the middle of the pavement. Is it really such a big ask for a competent artist to have put it in the trash or drawn one of the punks fiddling with it?
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Oct 26, 2015 00:26
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Coohoolin posted:"I can't understand metaphors that might possibly be versatile." So you're finally admitting to us that the SNP are in the process of creating a one-party state, because the party is being represented by a savage predator that routinely murders the helpless young of rivals once it has usurped power as the head of the group? A Good Cartoon.
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Oct 26, 2015 00:34
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This thread is having problems.
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Oct 26, 2015 00:37
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goatface posted:This thread is having problems. Coohoolinchat is tiresome in any thread it crops up, though as usual the people furiously trying to get a burn in are far more tiresome than Coohoolin ever is. A natural part of any UK-themed SA thread.
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Oct 26, 2015 01:41
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Guardian: "Martin Rowson on Tony Blair and the Chilcot report – Former British prime minister admits ‘mistakes’ and Iraq war’s role in rise of Islamic State but defends armed intervention in 2003" Telegraph:  Times:  Labour 'would support U-turn' over tax credits
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Oct 26, 2015 01:46
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kapparomeo posted:So you're finally admitting to us that the SNP are in the process of creating a one-party state, because the party is being represented by a savage predator that routinely murders the helpless young of rivals once it has usurped power as the head of the group? A Good Cartoon. lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35z0XpD1f6U
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Oct 26, 2015 03:38
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kapparomeo posted:So you're finally admitting to us that the SNP are in the process of creating a one-party state, because the party is being represented by a savage predator that routinely murders the helpless young of rivals once it has usurped power as the head of the group? A Good Cartoon.
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Oct 26, 2015 11:33
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Guardian: "Steve Bell on the tax credit cuts – The House of Lords voted to force George Osborne to pay compensation to low income earners who would be hit by planned cuts to tax credits" Telegraph:  Lewis Hamilton wins his third F1 World Championship Times:  Mail: Mac on... Claims by world health chiefs that processed meats can give you cancer and are as bad for you as smoking cigarettes  (Also there's a new TV drama.)
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Oct 27, 2015 01:59
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It's time for (slightly belated)... If... 19-22 October     I hope Bell wraps up the Star Wars stuff soon, as much as I'm enjoying some of the caricatures he seems to be phoning it in a bit.
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Oct 27, 2015 22:21
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Thanks, Party Boat! Guardian:  "Steve Bell on delay to George Osborne's tax credit cuts – With the House of Lords delaying the chancellor’s plans to cut £4.4bn from the welfare bill, Osborne must now find a way to recover from this latest setback to his plans" After Monty Python. Telegraph:  Independent:  Times:  Mail: 
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Oct 28, 2015 02:42
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gently caress off Mac
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Oct 28, 2015 02:51
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The Saurus posted:gently caress off Mac Hey come on, that's two honest to god jokes in a row now!
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Oct 28, 2015 03:59
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The Saurus posted:gently caress off Mac what it's an ok joke and pretty topical
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Oct 28, 2015 04:38
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You don't combine a dick nose and a bum nose, it's just weird
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Oct 28, 2015 04:56
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Cloud Potato posted:Times: Stabbed in the bum.
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Oct 28, 2015 11:59
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Cloud Potato posted:Independent: The Saurus posted:gently caress off Mac
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Oct 28, 2015 22:18
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Cloud Potato posted:
I bet Brookes thinks Osborne is a noble statesman like he imagines Caesar to be, cut down by traitorous unthinking rebels before his prime. Rather than a testicle-nosed tit.
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Oct 28, 2015 22:41
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Guardian: "Steve Bell on job advice at food banks – Iain Duncan Smith has announced that he is placing jobcentre staff in charity food banks on a trial basis" Telegraph:  Tory leader race: Osborne's defeat boosts rival Boris Independent:  Times:  Mail: Mac on... The 15-year-old boy arrested over the TalkTalk hacking  Brit thread bonus Guardian Sport: 
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Oct 29, 2015 02:04
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Yeah sorry, Mac's cartoon was actually pretty decent and I think it's even better now you've explained the traitors thing to me. I just really like saying gently caress off mac. gently caress off Mac
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Oct 29, 2015 04:02
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Cloud Potato posted:Brit thread bonus Guardian Sport:
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Oct 29, 2015 04:10
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Cloud Potato posted:Guardian: I like this. Louis van Gaal is a thumb with a quiff on top and a gift to cartoonists. I also never get tired of Squires drawing pissed off Jose.
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Oct 29, 2015 09:28
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cool stuff that the main story and cartoon content coming out of the tax credit thing is how it's scuppering poor George's career
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Oct 29, 2015 21:42
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