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Woolie Wool posted:That sounds really interesting and I want to read it.
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Oct 29, 2015 20:03
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The Vosgian Beast posted:I'm not sure how Scott has this little self-awareness. I wouldn't rank Scott as the most self-aware of people generally, but the simplest explanation works here: a big chunk of the LW diaspora is on tumblr, and he wants a place to engage with them that's less "official" than his own blog and also a place to write things that aren't so "endorsed" (hence "scratchpad,") and deleting from the tumblr is an inconscipuous way to de-endorse it as much as he can. The post itself is pretty silly, of course, but I'm in favor of people being able to spitball ideas through writing without it sticking to them forever. Woolie Wool posted:It also reminds me of a conversation I had with someone yesterday where we discussed how even the Allies during WWII operated on a mindset that is borderline incomprehensible to people today. Like probably everyone has heard of how rapidly military R&D happened in WWII and how the P-51 Mustang was developed in four months and blah blah blah, and they basically developed those planes by building a crude prototype, and when the pilot crashed it and died, they make some refinements so hopefully the next test pilot wouldn't die, and then the next test pilot dies, repeat. I'm not sure that's as much a difference in fundamental mindset as the circumstances they were under, though. If industrialized states faced an actual military threat, we'd probably start accepting test pilots as heroic military sacrifices pretty quickly.
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Oct 29, 2015 20:13
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Oligopsony posted:I wouldn't rank Scott as the most self-aware of people generally, but the simplest explanation works here: a big chunk of the LW diaspora is on tumblr, and he wants a place to engage with them that's less "official" than his own blog and also a place to write things that aren't so "endorsed" (hence "scratchpad,") and deleting from the tumblr is an inconscipuous way to de-endorse it as much as he can. Tumblr is basically the worst place for that, though, since the second a post is reblogged, it is pretty much permanently attached to your name and blog. Even if you later redact or edit your post, it's being reblogged in its original form to a bunch of strangers. In the worst cases, you'll be getting responses years later from people who think it's something that just happened, and usually have no way of seeing any conversation that's happened around it already.
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Oct 29, 2015 21:20
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Parallel Paraplegic posted:In all of those examples though it was "white people" vs. "not white people", while who constitutes white people has changed over the years the existence of and perceived superiority of a group called "white people" has been pretty constant for a long time. Baring overwhelming counterevidence, I assume every group has their own story of ethnic superiority (based on socially constructed categories of course).
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Oct 29, 2015 21:21
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Cingulate posted:Ingroup is a well established scientific term, you don't need to quote bracket it. Ah yeah I know, I got carried away  quote:Baring overwhelming counterevidence, I assume every group has their own story of ethnic superiority (based on socially constructed categories of course). Well yeah, my native Chinese friend has told me all about how massively racist and superior they are too, I don't doubt that most groups have some form of ethnic superiority complex, but the context I'm talking about is whether or not we can eliminate racism from western society specifically, and western society's biggest problem in this regard has been the concept of white people for quite a while now.
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Oct 29, 2015 22:55
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https://twitter.com/ClarkHat/status/659830894279176193 "eminently quotable"
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Oct 29, 2015 23:00
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Merdifex posted:https://twitter.com/ClarkHat/status/659830894279176193 He is quotable, he's just really wrong about most things. Also I have trouble even parsing how that is a slam on SJWs.
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Oct 29, 2015 23:18
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The Vosgian Beast posted:He is quotable, he's just really wrong about most things. "People sometimes go on speaking tours about their awful lives that they escaped from! SJWs think they're entitled to speak about this, and get paid! They should just put their words out on the internet for free, like me!", I guess?
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Oct 29, 2015 23:34
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Who are these professional speakers making tons of money giving lectures on ethics?
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Oct 29, 2015 23:52
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Presumably Anita Sarkeesian
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Oct 30, 2015 00:21
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DStecks posted:You can be European without being part of the group called "white". It's called being a Latino. Or travel back in time a few decades and it's called being Jewish. A bit further, being Irish. Ideas of who and what constitutes a race of people fluctuate fast. Racism isn't some indestructable problem of human nature, it's a part of our culture, and a recent one at that. Latinos who look 100% European can definitely become white if they Anglicize, and many do--look at George Zimmerman, hero of racist white people everywhere. "But he's Hispanic!" I've heard some people say, but he's also, as Trayvon Martin put it, a creepy-rear end cracker. The expansion of whiteness to encompass light-skinned Latinos in general, not just those who take on Anglo ways, is all but guaranteed, because it's necessary for white people to hold onto power in America. Whiteness has always been a flexible category, expanded as necessary to ensure a secure white majority, this is not a weakness but a strength of the system. Whiteness, as the in-group of the white supremacist power structure, is neither a "problem of human nature" nor just "a part of our culture" as if it's like square dancing or something, it is the foundation of American culture and America itself. America is built on whiteness in opposition to the collective Other, because the underlying idea of America is a lie created to justify the theft of land, labor, and resources from groups targeted by European conquerors. Every white American is indoctrinated in white supremacy and the ways of whiteness from cradle to grave, it is how we are taught to understand and relate to ourselves. This is not a problem we can solve with "diversity education" or other white liberal nostrums. I'm not sure if it's solvable at all. Sometimes I imagine a possible future where white people have exhausted opportunities to expand whiteness to favored groups and have irretrievably lost their majority, but instead of reckoning with and atoning for their crimes, have walled themselves off in ethnic enclave states, stewing in hatred and fear, raiding and terrorizing the societies of color that surround them. Even the boldest white anti-racists seem to have feet of clay when really put to the test, they inevitably cling to whiteness and reproduce white supremacy within their own "anti-racist" activism. Woolie Wool has a new favorite as of 00:42 on Oct 30, 2015 |
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Oct 30, 2015 00:37
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I don't think you can eliminate "racism" in the sense of different groups of humans coming up with stories on why their group is better than that group. You can probably work to erode the specific dominant one now, though, and you can probably channel the residual impulses into other things that are ultimately harmless if you have a mind for it.
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Oct 30, 2015 00:43
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Nessus posted:I don't think you can eliminate "racism" in the sense of different groups of humans coming up with stories on why their group is better than that group. You can probably work to erode the specific dominant one now, though, and you can probably channel the residual impulses into other things that are ultimately harmless if you have a mind for it. You can also avoid institutions that enforce it, or force institutions to acknowledge it. America will never do either.
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Oct 30, 2015 00:50
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Nessus posted:I don't think you can eliminate "racism" in the sense of different groups of humans coming up with stories on why their group is better than that group. You can probably work to erode the specific dominant one now, though, and you can probably channel the residual impulses into other things that are ultimately harmless if you have a mind for it. That's not what I'm talking about. Institutional racism is not ordinary ethnocentrism, it's an entirely different and vastly more malignant thing.
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Oct 30, 2015 00:52
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Woolie Wool posted:Latinos who look 100% European can definitely become white if they Anglicize, and many do--look at George Zimmerman, hero of racist white people everywhere. "But he's Hispanic!" I've heard some people say, but he's also, as Trayvon Martin put it, a creepy-rear end cracker. The expansion of whiteness to encompass light-skinned Latinos in general, not just those who take on Anglo ways, is all but guaranteed, because it's necessary for white people to hold onto power in America. If this happens I will fry and eat my hat. I don't even own a hat.
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Oct 30, 2015 03:30
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Woolie Wool posted:That's not what I'm talking about. Institutional racism is not ordinary ethnocentrism, it's an entirely different and vastly more malignant thing.
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Oct 30, 2015 03:37
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DStecks posted:You can be European without being part of the group called "white". It's called being a Latino. Or travel back in time a few decades and it's called being Jewish. A bit further, being Irish. Ideas of who and what constitutes a race of people fluctuate fast. Racism isn't some indestructable problem of human nature, it's a part of our culture, and a recent one at that. lots of latinos, even most depending on the specific country of origin, are white most argentinians and brazilians are primarily or entirely european in genetic background
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Oct 30, 2015 03:42
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Hate Fibration posted:If this happens I will fry and eat my hat. I don't even own a hat. Well in 1920 Irish were "white niggers", Sacco and Vanzetti were, as The Onion put it in their parody of 20th century newspaper retrospectives, "executed for wopness", and Jews were so despised the US was full of literal outspoken  loving NAZIS as late as 1941. But the thing is white supremacy is going to need light-skinned Latinos, the demographics are against white people holding on to power without breaking the country up, much like in the post-WWII era, white people needed Italians, Hungarians, Poles, Jews, Irish, etc. both to shore up their numbers and to split any potential alliance between "white ethnics" and black people.BTW if we're still posting on Something Awful in 2065 I'll hold you to that.  E: Also the acceptance of light-skinned Latinos into the White People Club will give white racists yet another rhetorical weapon to beat people of color with, by pretending white Latinos got where they are because they tried harder and behaved better than their darker-skinned counterparts. Whitewashed Euro-Latinos will use the marginalization of their ancestors to defend their own white privilege, much like Ashkenazi Jewish racists do today. Also relevant to this discussion, another one of Abagond's articles: The Three Pillars of American White Supremacy explains how the targets of white supremacy are selected. Woolie Wool has a new favorite as of 04:01 on Oct 30, 2015 |
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Oct 30, 2015 03:51
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Parallel Paraplegic posted:Ah yeah I know, I got carried away I don't get this focus on white racism. In the West, white racism is the problem because whites are in charge*. If any other group were in charge, it'd be their racism. The most recent massive racist genocide was black-on-black (Rwanda). It's just racism that's the problem, not white racism. * (of course, ideally, no homogenous group would be in charge. Well, maybe the group of people who're good at being in charge. Which I assume includes a bunch of black women. Either way, whites being in charge of an increasingly heterogenous society is obviously a suboptimal state.) Cingulate has a new favorite as of 04:07 on Oct 30, 2015 |
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Oct 30, 2015 04:04
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Whites invented racism, built racism, defined all the (entirely arbitrary) racial categories, and maintain all its institutions. All other racist projects like the WWII-era Japanese Empire are only variations on the white theme. Racism is not just about capitalism, it's about white people themselves, who they are as people, how they understand themselves, and how they relate to others. If white people in the US instituted communism, they would work racism into it, even if it caused the communist project to implode. Racism may have started as an economic exploitation machine but it's grown beyond that, the tail is wagging the dog and now racism defines white people as much as white people define racism. Activist Tim Wise told an anecdote about how his mother got dementia and moved into a nursing home, and one day, this woman, who had campaigned against racist policy all her life, snapped and called her black nurse a friend of the family to her face. His mother had forgotten how to walk, how to read, how to write, even her own name, but she had not forgotten that she was white and the lady in front of her was a friend of the family, an Other, not fully human, and by attempting to exert authority over the white woman, the friend of the family was stepping out of her place. The whiteness remained when most of her other faculties were lost, and with her higher mental functions destroyed, the whiteness asserted itself in its ugliest, most primal form. That is how deeply ingrained racism is.
Woolie Wool has a new favorite as of 04:14 on Oct 30, 2015 |
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Oct 30, 2015 04:10
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Jack Gladney posted:Who are these professional speakers making tons of money giving lectures on ethics? The Vosgian Beast posted:Presumably Anita Sarkeesian  It's almost like there's a beautiful perfect intersection of Clarkhat and his neoreactionary buddies', Breitbart and the alt-right's, and redchanit and gamergate's targets... DStecks posted:Bioshock was loving excellent, and a brilliant point-by-point takedown of why Objectivism does not work. Ken Levine has made it clear in interviews that he did not intend Bioshock to be a takedown of Objectivism, and in fact has no idea why Bioshock was good, but that doesn't detract from Bioshock being really, really good. Assepoester has a new favorite as of 04:22 on Oct 30, 2015 |
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Oct 30, 2015 04:19
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DStecks posted:Bioshock was loving excellent, and a brilliant point-by-point takedown of why Objectivism does not work. Ken Levine has made it clear in interviews that he did not intend Bioshock to be a takedown of Objectivism, and in fact has no idea why Bioshock was good, but that doesn't detract from Bioshock being really, really good. I actually have to agree with Levine, but I think that actually counts against Levine. Bioshock used Objectivism basically as a framing device to remake System Shock 2, without really having anything to say about Objectivism. He actually did pretty much the same thing he did with white supremacy with Bioshock Infinite, but nobody noticed in the original Bioshock because only nerdlords and Paul Ryan care about Objectivism, while white supremacy directly affects most of the people in the world.
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Oct 30, 2015 04:22
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The idea that any of the African civilizations, or Japanese, or whoever, weren't perfectly capable of coming up with racism all on their own without needing white help strikes me as ... far-fetched. And maybe a bit, well, let's say, eurocentric. Stories about demented people using curse words are surely interesting, but not so much about racism, but more about what place curse words occupy in our minds and how dementia works.
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Oct 30, 2015 04:23
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Nobody "helped" the Japanese, they saw what Europeans were doing in the western Pacific and decided they could get in on the action by building a modern imperial state on a European template. What they didn't realize was that the Europeans would never give them a seat among the world powers, and this conflict between Japan wanting to muscle into the Western imperial club and white countries working together to shut Japan out ultimately led to Japan joining the Axis (I don't believe for a second that Germany wouldn't have stabbed Japan in the back at its earliest convenience if alien space bats gave them the ability to win WWII) and Pacific theater of World War II.
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Oct 30, 2015 04:28
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Woolie Wool posted:Nobody "helped" the Japanese, they saw what Europeans were doing in the western Pacific and decided they could get in on the action by building a modern imperial state on a European template. What they didn't realize was that the Europeans would never give them a seat among the world powers, and this conflict between Japan wanting to muscle into the Western imperial club and white countries working together to shut Japan out ultimately led to Japan joining the Axis (I don't believe for a second that Germany wouldn't have stabbed Japan in the back at its earliest convenience if alien space bats gave them the ability to win WWII) and Pacific theater of World War II. This includes the whole set-up, starting with the idea of white racism, as if Whiteness had even been the central concept in 1935.
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Oct 30, 2015 04:38
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You think it's some sort of joke to assert that Japan consciously modeled the way their imperial state operated, its military, its policies, and even an attempt to recenter white racist thinking to serve Japan, on what European contemporaries were doing, to try to achieve the success their western rivals had at imperialism, and that the nations of Europe refused to accept the Japanese as one of their own? In the end it didn't work, but the assumptions they made were completely reasonable in the context in which they made them. Those assumptions were wrong, but plenty of European imperial powers ( comes to mind, you can't beat starting a war against the entire world, and of course the great powers of Europe basically fought World War I for nothing) made even bigger miscalculations.And you better loving believe whiteness was a pretty loving important concept in 1935. Scientists and professors built entire careers on producing works on "race theory" about the inherent superiority of the white man and ranking different types of whites by their relative whiteness, and there were like 17 different competing hypotheses about the exact history of the "Aryans", all of which were racist horseshit. Woolie Wool has a new favorite as of 04:51 on Oct 30, 2015 |
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Oct 30, 2015 04:43
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Please define racism as created by white people. I honestly don't know how one would categorize the treatment of the Ainu by the Japanese as fundamentally any differently than the treatment of the Native Americans by white settlers, and in general I'm having difficulty finding a definition of racism that is unique to white people that isn't also entirely wrapped up in capitalism.
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Oct 30, 2015 05:03
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The Japanese did not annex Hokkaido and settle Ainu lands en masse until the Meiji Restoration began . The Tokugawa Japanese were certainly not nice to the Ainu before then, but ill-treated vassal territories do not make institutional racism or settler colonialism. But of course we can pretend socialism will magically fix racism even though virulent racism from white socialists helped destroy the New Left coalition in the late 1960s and spawned Black Power and the social justice movements in response. No need for a reckoning with ourselves, the worker's state will make everything better, including our own characters!
Woolie Wool has a new favorite as of 05:24 on Oct 30, 2015 |
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Oct 30, 2015 05:20
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Cingulate posted:The idea that any of the African civilizations, or Japanese, or whoever, weren't perfectly capable of coming up with racism all on their own without needing white help strikes me as ... far-fetched. And maybe a bit, well, let's say, eurocentric. The unique Western form of modern imperialistic race discrimination, whatever you want to call it, is a contingent product of historical events. If you mean that there is not, like, some inborn genetic factor that makes people with lighter-hued skin descending from European populations inherently prone to creating organized systems of discrimination, I would certainly agree with you - but I also don't think anyone is really arguing that this is the case. When Woolie says "racism" I presume they mean the unique Western etc. rather than the simple fact of ethnic prejudice, which is also commonly called "racism." There is the thorny complexity of, "Do other ethnic prejudices end up expressed in a way that echoes the horrible systems of the white man?" which seems like it can't be easily resolved. e: To look at Japan, who deliberately tried to model their path to modernity on European examples - I doubt anyone in Japan sat down and went "You know what we need to do to become a modern industrial nation? We need to find a minority group and poo poo on them, to more fully enjoy the pleasures of racism." However, they did go "Well, we need to expand, get more space and resources, and we have every right to do that, etc." - developing ideologies to justify and motivate that, inspired by if not exactly identical to the Western systems. Then they went after Hokkaido, Korea, northern China, etc. and so on. Nessus has a new favorite as of 05:54 on Oct 30, 2015 |
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Oct 30, 2015 05:51
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Well there was also, "the Europeans have the wealth and power and technology to threaten our very existence, and this is how they got it; if we do this too, we can have what they have and they will be forced to respect us as equals. If we do not, they will crush us like they are crushing China and the East Indies."
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Oct 30, 2015 05:58
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I still consider this discussion of white supremacy an immense improvement over the incessant talk about AssCreed. Now for content: Hey, remember that book The Kite Runner? It came out like a decade ago? Well it's actually filthy PROG PROPAGANDA:  Book talks about rape? Propaganda. In my day we forced kids to read REAL books like Old Man and the Sea and Red Badge of Courage until the passion for reading was sucked out of them, as it should be.
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Oct 30, 2015 06:08
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"Typical prog lionization of lower classes," that sure says a lot right there, doesn't it.
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Oct 30, 2015 06:16
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Curvature of Earth posted:I still consider this discussion of white supremacy an immense improvement over the incessant talk about AssCreed. Oh gently caress the Red badge of courage. Yeah that was fun reading an entire anthology of his works. It was not done in order of stories but in order of when they were published. That meant the individual chapters of his stories cane out when he felt like making them instead of having them in order in their own sction. I wanted to rend the pages the ink was printed on asunder after it all.
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Oct 30, 2015 06:19
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Woolie Wool posted:Nobody "helped" the Japanese, they saw what Europeans were doing in the western Pacific and decided they could get in on the action by building a modern imperial state on a European template. What they didn't realize was that the Europeans would never give them a seat among the world powers, and this conflict between Japan wanting to muscle into the Western imperial club and white countries working together to shut Japan out ultimately led to Japan joining the Axis (I don't believe for a second that Germany wouldn't have stabbed Japan in the back at its earliest convenience if alien space bats gave them the ability to win WWII) and Pacific theater of World War II. They did get a seat at the world power table though, they earned it by stomping the Russians in 1905. Cue quotes form Teddy Roosevelt about how the Japanese are the only non-white nation to 'get' Western Civilization, etc The justification of "we're persecuted by the Western Powers" used by Imperial Japan was always bullshit, Japan was as much a Great Power as Germany or France or Britain or Russia ever were, and once Japan demonstrated its economic and military might it was accepted into the club and allowed to participate as a full member in the dismemberment of China. Of course, most of the world was already colonized at that point, so they were locked out of SE Asia, but you might as well say that Imperial Germany was persecuted with the same reasoning icantfindaname has a new favorite as of 07:00 on Oct 30, 2015 |
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Oct 30, 2015 06:55
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Cingulate posted:Is this a parody on something? I can't quite tell. It really reads parodistic to me. Whiteness was so central to the global zeitgeist, that many black activists openly supported the Japanese Empire because they saw the success of Imperial Japan as a real world example which invalidated White Supremacy.
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Oct 30, 2015 10:09
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icantfindaname posted:They did get a seat at the world power table though, they earned it by stomping the Russians in 1905. Cue quotes form Teddy Roosevelt about how the Japanese are the only non-white nation to 'get' Western Civilization, etc
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Oct 30, 2015 10:32
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Woolie you're US American right? That's the only perspective from which this can somehow be made sense of.icantfindaname posted:you might as well say that Imperial Germany was persecuted with the same reasoning Place in the sun and poo poo.
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Oct 30, 2015 11:49
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Curvature of Earth posted:I still consider this discussion of white supremacy an immense improvement over the incessant talk about AssCreed. A summary is all I require to pass judgment.
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Oct 30, 2015 12:11
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Whiteness was so central to the global zeitgeist, that many black activists openly supported the Japanese Empire because they saw the success of Imperial Japan as a real world example which invalidated White Supremacy. This is true to an extent, but it's important to note that the Japanese did not see themselves in opposition to the white Western European countries. Rather, the whole point of Imperial Japan was that it had reformed itself politically and economically to the standards of Western Europe, and thus deserved the same status as one of / part of the superior civilization, along with the attendant rights to colonize inferior nations like the Koreans or Chinese. Basically they looked at White Supremacy, and said "that's a pretty sweet deal, let's get in on that" They weren't opposed to it, they embraced it. I think it's fair to disqualify them from claims of being victimized by the same system they embraced icantfindaname has a new favorite as of 12:17 on Oct 30, 2015 |
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Oct 30, 2015 12:13
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Curvature of Earth posted:I still consider this discussion of white supremacy an immense improvement over the incessant talk about AssCreed. This is the last time Weird Uncle Eugene gets to help on a book report. Furthermore, many things are prog propaganda, as "prog" appears to refer to anyone left of Donald Trump.
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Oct 30, 2015 12:30
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