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Hey, now. At least some of these are modeled on insurance companies, which sounds much more enjoyable as a basis for social order.
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# ? Oct 29, 2015 17:25 |
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# ? May 15, 2024 03:35 |
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GunnerJ posted:Hey, now. At least some of these are modeled on insurance companies, which sounds much more enjoyable as a basis for social order. It's loving astounding how Libertarians manage to pick out all of the most frustrating and unpleasant bureaucracies in modern society and say "Yes, everything should work like these."
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# ? Oct 29, 2015 17:32 |
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Remember, a socialist collective built the Ark, alienated labor built the Titanic
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# ? Oct 29, 2015 18:43 |
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YF19pilot posted:stuff It sounds like you've already put more thought into how libertarianism is supposed to work than most libertarian thinkers. If you're wondering how that world view is supposed to be applied and maintain coherency, stop. It either never can, or it already is. If you're wondering how people come to believe such things, then you need to look at the psychology of the believers and not the structure of the belief system.
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 04:23 |
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OwlFancier posted:I believe the idea is that there is no law save what is generated by the gestalt processed of society (but not what we have now, because that's bad) and these sort of inherent social laws will be enforced by anyone with the firepower and inclination to do so (enforcing a law which was unpopular would result in other people shooting you) while more locally, laws are dictated by whoever owns the landmass you're on and if you don't like them you can leave. Unless all of their neighbors put up "No trespassing" signs. Literally The Worst posted:pls stay current on your dadchat epistemes drat, my goons.xlsx file is completely out of date.
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 04:33 |
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YF19pilot posted:How are laws made/passed? Who dictates what laws exist? Can the population at large change and alter laws? Is there a mechanism for recognizing new laws and abolishing old ones? Would it be easy or hard to change laws? What checks would be in place to prevent passing laws that favor one group of people over another? This is your problem: you fundamentally misunderstand DROs if you think they're customer-service oriented entities that cater to individual yeoman farmers. DROs make the laws, and you accept whatever laws the DRO you can afford tells you to accept, because DRO coverage is mandatory and not having it is punishable by death (either quickly by criminal elements who take advantage or slowly by starvation and exposure because it's illegal to sell or trade with an uncovered person). Here, take a minute and read this primer on DROs that jrod posted in an earlier incarnation of this thread. As you're reading it, keep in mind that it is an argument in favor of DROs and stateless law enforcement. Stefan Molyneaux posted:However, the stateless society goes much, much further in preventing crime specifically, by identifying those who are going to become criminals. In this situation, the stateless society is far more effective than any State system. Let me reiterate: the above was posted by jrodefeld to convince us to adopt this system, and not an exercise in speculative fiction about how a horrific Shadowrun dystopia would function.
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 05:34 |
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Molyneaux starts tipping his hand when his example of stalking goes "a woman becomes obsessed with a man, and starts calling him at all hours," but the rapidity with which the mask completely drops after that is breathtaking. Triple-H wants Covenant Communities to kick out the blacks, Steve Freedomain wants DROs to control cheating psycho sluts. Also why do they capitalize the word "state" anyway?
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 05:46 |
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GunnerJ posted:Molyneaux starts tipping his hand when his example of stalking goes "a woman becomes obsessed with a man, and starts calling him at all hours," but the rapidity with which the mask completely drops after that is breathtaking. Triple-H wants Covenant Communities to kick out the blacks, Steve Freedomain wants DROs to control cheating psycho sluts. Don't forget Herbert Spencer arguing that the free market produces humane eugenics, culling undesirables for the betterment of humanity
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 05:51 |
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GunnerJ posted:Also why do they capitalize the word "state" anyway? They are literal crazy people with real mental illnesses. EDIT: actually, the relevant quote seems to have came from a different thread originally. I'll transplant it here. Schizotek posted:And the capitalization thing people mentioned is just something schizos tend to do even when they aren't babbling about the CIA trying to assassinate them by slipping an empty Monster can underneath their brake pedal. It's "this represents a concept related to but not identical to this words textbook meaning, but I don't have a separate word for what I'm trying to describe so I'll turn it into a proper noun to distinguish that", as opposed to just trying to make it look scary. Normal people do it too but it's practically a schizophrenia trademark. Reicere fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Oct 30, 2015 |
# ? Oct 30, 2015 06:00 |
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I legit needed to read that thing a dozen or so times the first time around to keep reminding myself this wasn't a parody trying to accuse Molyneaux of being a sexist, this was just his legit attempt to make a proposal that everyone could get behind and was totally nondystopian. "A man quits his DRO. What happens to his wife?" "She must leave the house immediately and find new shelter elsewhere or else she will be left to fend for herself from a man her DRO assumes is trying to kill her "
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 06:00 |
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Oh hey, by the way, remember that this is all "voluntary," well, for the meaning of voluntary that goes "any decision you make without anyone literally threatening to hurt you," i.e., the best meaning, i.e., the technical one. Leftists question whether employment contracts can really be called fully consensual given the alternatives available to workers for economic survival, but loopholes in the nature of contractual consent like this aren't bugs in libertarian ethics, they're features.
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 06:17 |
What happens when a DRO decides to declare that, say, only it is allowed to operate at the Citadel, Gas Town, and the Bullet Farm?
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 06:30 |
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Nessus posted:What happens when a DRO decides to declare that, say, only it is allowed to operate at the Citadel, Gas Town, and the Bullet Farm? Murray Rothbard posted:Of course, some of the private defense agencies will become criminal, just as some people become criminal now. But the point is that in a stateless society there would be no regular, legalized channel for crime and aggression, no government apparatus the control of which provides a secure monopoly for invasion of person and property...To create such an instrument de novo is very difficult, and, indeed, almost impossible; historically, it took State rulers centuries to create a functioning State apparatus." Power vacuums can't exist, because we'll all have a very specific form of amnesia that will require us to reinvent the state.
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 07:43 |
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Power vacuums can't exist, because we'll all have a very specific form of amnesia that will require us to reinvent the state. From: http://archive.lewrockwell.com/orig6/molyneux1.html Stefan Molyneux posted:The second problem is the fear that a particular DRO will grow in size and stature to the point where it takes on all the features and properties of a new State. This guy just doesn't understand people, does he?
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 07:52 |
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YF19pilot posted:From: http://archive.lewrockwell.com/orig6/molyneux1.html But it wouldn't be replacing a political state because there wouldn't be a state? I mean no poo poo blackwater or McDonalds don't rise up and replace the US when the US is king poo poo of the mountain. In the absence of the US government however, why is it so hard for this moron to believe that a private company might beat up (or buy out) all the other DRO's and thus gain a monopoly of force, at which point it gives precisely zero fucks whether you want to deal with them or not.
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 08:00 |
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There's god knows how many historical examples of non-state groups establishing states under their control, but Molyneux is a dishonest idiot who can only deny the idea by narrowing it down to the specific example of a modern corporation overthrowing a modern state.
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 08:32 |
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"There is no historical example of a modern capitalist firm assuming the functions of the state without the aid of the state. Of course there are also no historical examples of a modern capitalist firm existing without a state, but, details..."
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 08:36 |
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Ironically, the way DRO treats "rogues" sounds like the former USSR's crime of parasitism. In fact, considering ownership and access to all resources goes through DROs they sound very communist.
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 08:41 |
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LookingGodIntheEye posted:Ironically, the way DRO treats "rogues" sounds like the former USSR's crime of parasitism. With literally none of the benefits though. It's really just more like a feudal society (also with none of the benefits.) Be sure to avert your gaze when the regional manager passes you in the street.
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 08:47 |
I assume history did not exist prior to the creation of the State, doubtless by the Demiurge.
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 08:50 |
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I especially like the idea that if one of the companies that has a lot of guns and dudes trained to use those guns gets so big and powerful that it becomes a concern, the rest of society can just stop doing business with them with no consequences whatsoever. Because surely said group would just quietly disband at that point. When your utopia literally is warlordism in everything but the name, it might be time to rethink your position.
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 09:01 |
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It's pretty amazing that DROs are able to exact swift and unerring justice (and preemptive justice like forcing your daughter to wear a GPS ankle bracelet and virgin alarm) with overwhelming force, but also they are nothing but unarmed accountants and actuaries because after all why would they need weapons when no rational individual would ever commit a crime?
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 09:03 |
VitalSigns posted:It's pretty amazing that DROs are able to exact swift and unerring justice (and preemptive justice like forcing your daughter to wear a GPS ankle bracelet and virgin alarm) with overwhelming force, but also they are nothing but unarmed accountants and actuaries because after all why would they need weapons when no rational individual would ever commit a crime?
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 09:11 |
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I just love that all theories of power and coercion that have been advanced in the last century and a half are either ignored or treated as manuals by Libertarians. Social alienation due to having your body and labour time owned by a capitalist? Bah, that's commie rubbish. Rationalisation and over-bearing bureaucracy being impersonal forces that can't be fought leads you to give up resistance? We dislike the state, but maybe we could still preserve this through a complex system of insurance and law enforcement? A feeling of constant surveillance even when not being surveilled? Now that's a model for the free society!
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 09:28 |
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Libertarians gushing about the wonderful surveillance
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 10:31 |
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Those insane DRO imagined societies resemble North Korea more than any sort of free society. Don't you imagine DROs would develop monopolies or exclusive contracts on certain communities. Or patrol their communities without impunity. Don't have an updated DRO registration card or your DRO is not of the appropriate class or premium level or your DRO doesn't have an established relationship with our DRO or you are black/mixed race/indigenous? You ain't welcome here. In North Korea, the DRO (aka the government) punishes people who break the rules generationally (up to 3 generations above and below). Road blocks prevent people from traveling between towns without the proper clearance or access. Citizens are required to report any wrongdoing or they get punished (and have their DRO standing revoked). If you try to escape, by any means, since there is no public land, citizens are organized along railroads, roads, paths, and elsewhere to spot escapees. Breaking rules means you are rejecting societal rules and no longer a comrade/libertarian/etc.
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 13:26 |
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DROs are how I know for an undeniable fact that Jrod is outright lying when he says he believes in the non-aggression principal. He, like the libertarians who do his thinking for him, loves the idea of Men With Guns and monopolies on violence. Their real problem with the state has never been that it coerces its citizens with the threat of being blown away by the military, their real issue is that they aren't in control of it. They want to be the ones wearing the jackboots as it presses down upon the necks of the proles. They want to be the ones with the power to get back at those they hate, be they blacks, women, or that slut in the seventh grade who wouldn't go to the Saddie Hawkins date with them.
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 14:12 |
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YF19pilot posted:This guy just doesn't understand people, does he? Isn't it ironic that one of the Libertarian Free Market tropes is that we cannot predict the results of economic choices because we cannot understand people?
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 14:14 |
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Heavy neutrino posted:There's god knows how many historical examples of non-state groups establishing states under their control, but Molyneux is a dishonest idiot who can only deny the idea by narrowing it down to the specific example of a modern corporation overthrowing a modern state. and he's still wrong what with the British East India Company
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 14:19 |
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zeal posted:and he's still wrong what with the British East India Company India wasn't a modern state because they were a bunch of brown people ipso facto Molyneux is never wrong ever.
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 14:51 |
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molyneux needs to get hauled before a Mughal court for not paying his dhimmi tax
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 15:54 |
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Malleum posted:India wasn't a modern state because they were a bunch of brown people ipso facto Molyneux is never wrong ever. Also, the British State allowed the British East India Company to become what they were, therefor it is an act of statist aggression and
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 15:55 |
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zeal posted:and he's still wrong what with the British East India Company Also Hawaii, for what it's worth; the centuries-old native monarchy there was overthrown by a group of haole plantation owners who then petitioned the US to make them a state and legitimize their revolution. and that wasn't even too long ago
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 16:11 |
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FilthIncarnate posted:Also Hawaii, for what it's worth; the centuries-old native monarchy there was overthrown by a group of haole plantation owners who then petitioned the US to make them a state and legitimize their revolution.
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 16:32 |
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Since DROs would be "voluntary," you would of course have to sign a contract for their services. I can't wait to find out what kind of protection from liability and arbitration clauses they would write into those. You know how by signing up with PayPal or whatever you give up your right to sue them? Yeah.
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 17:01 |
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Gee fellas, I'm starting to get the idea that maybe-no wait hear me out on this one, maybe libertarians have such a murky definition of what constitutes aggression intentionally as it allows them to legitimize what violence they approve of while simultaneously claiming a moral high ground.CommieGIR posted:Isn't it ironic that one of the Libertarian Free Market tropes is that we cannot predict the results of economic choices because we cannot understand people? Well you see my friend, if we start from the simple axiom that Humans Act, we can subsequently logically determ- *prolonged, squeak fart*
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 17:17 |
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YF19pilot posted:Also, the British State allowed the British East India Company to become what they were, therefor it is an act of statist aggression and see now your getting it
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 17:18 |
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VitalSigns posted:Libertarians gushing about the wonderful surveillance This is a combination of actual Murray Rothbard quotes by the way.
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 19:17 |
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And here are the bits right before that! quote:Slash Taxes. All taxes, sales, business, property, etc., but especially the most oppressive politically and personally: the income tax. We must work toward repeal of the income tax and abolition of the IRS. We're not racist, we just want to destroy "civil rights" and the political power of the "underclass."
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 20:17 |
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# ? May 15, 2024 03:35 |
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Nolanar posted:And here are the bits right before that! "We'll run the entire country on charitable donations! No, this is not a bad plan!"
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# ? Oct 30, 2015 20:20 |