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The EU is a neoliberal entity and is ideologically committed to austerity, leaving would be a good thing.
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Oct 30, 2015 21:45
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Benjamin Arthur posted:The EU is a neoliberal entity and is ideologically committed to austerity, leaving would be a good thing. I also want to become the 51st through 54th States of the Union
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Oct 30, 2015 21:47
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Benjamin Arthur posted:The EU is a neoliberal entity and is ideologically committed to austerity, leaving would be a good thing. That's a good argument for dissolving the EU but not a good argument for leaving it. Staying in and ignoring it when it's being stupid rather than when it's unprofitable would be much better.
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Oct 30, 2015 21:59
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OwlFancier posted:Because I'm sure there's nothing the working class love more than the extremely wealthy and the organisation most likely to kill them other than the DWP? Don't underestimate the ability of people to hold firmly to ideas that are not only antiquated but also do them or others like them harm. I took part in peaceful protests against the Falklands Conflict while it was going on. It wasn't the middle or upper classes that lined the pavements to chant 'Traitor' at us. Horrible that people still buy the Dulce Et Decorum Est con but I'm not sure how you fight it if they don't want to listen.
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Oct 30, 2015 22:02
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EmptyVessel posted:Don't underestimate the ability of people to hold firmly to ideas that are not only antiquated but also do them or others like them harm. QFT. Corbyn is hosed if they can make the mud stick, so this will be a great litmus test of how effective the strategy is. I'm not hopeful - even people in my local Labour party meeting had swallowed the "he's chummy with terrorists" line, so I don't know how he's going to stand a chance against the legendary reasoning powers of White Van Man.
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Oct 30, 2015 22:05
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Mister Adequate posted:I also want to become the 51st through 54th States of the Union We've probably got more chance of becoming a Chinese offshore holding company than that.
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Oct 30, 2015 22:06
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EmptyVessel posted:Don't underestimate the ability of people to hold firmly to ideas that are not only antiquated but also do them or others like them harm. Yeah I know that those are both things that our lot actually really do like for some bizzare reason. There's arguments against it but I don't know if Corbyn would try them. I do think the "If I like soldiers why would I want to send them to die?" line could be a promising one.
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Oct 30, 2015 22:08
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The typical response would be "Do you think ARE BOYS would be killed by a bunch of goat fuckers?" I mean the entire reason that Help for Heroes was set up is because the problem of people being injured or killed in the ME has been thoroughly swept under the rug, to the point where helping them is entirely the responsibility of citizens, because it's not the government's problem they're now injured and can't feed themselves or walk, it's just an unfortunate thing that they probably let happen to themselves, like cancer. Rush Limbo fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Oct 30, 2015 |
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Oct 30, 2015 22:14
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Ddraig posted:The typical response would be "Do you think ARE BOYS would be killed by a bunch of goat fuckers?" "179 dead, 315 wounded in combat, 3,598 injured or suffered disease on deployment. So yes, I do." Works on Cameron, works on militarists.
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Oct 30, 2015 22:20
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It's the being sent to die that makes them our brave boys, if it wasn't for going to war all the time they'd just be random people standing around taking up space
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Oct 30, 2015 22:20
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OwlFancier posted:There's arguments against it but I don't know if Corbyn would try them. I do think the "If I like soldiers why would I want to send them to die?" line could be a promising one. Yeah, that could be worth a try. I think one thing they (Labour) should really try and hammer home is that if you are voting for your local Labour MP you are not voting for a Corbyn clone. They need to stress the democratic nature of the party and demonstrate that Corbyn is willing to listen to the party rather than dictate from on high (something he's started but sadly needs constant restating). Also, are there no veterans in the Labour party who could act as a useful bridge between Corbyns position and their own experience of the military? There must be some, surely.
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Oct 30, 2015 22:22
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EmptyVessel posted:Yeah, that could be worth a try. Clive Lewis is a veteran + Corbynite
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Oct 30, 2015 22:30
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Regarde Aduck posted:I rewatched those films recently and I discovered that the middle film is actually the best. But the last one destroys everything anyway so it doesn't matter. Watch the animatrix if you haven't (mainly just the prequel one), puts a new spin on the movies. Angepain posted:It's the being sent to die that makes them our brave boys, if it wasn't for going to war all the time they'd just be random people standing around taking up space O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away"; But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play, The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play, O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.
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Oct 30, 2015 23:27
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Benjamin Arthur posted:The EU is a neoliberal entity and is ideologically committed to austerity, leaving would be a good thing. EU ain't imposing neoliberalism or austerity on an unwilling UK government. Leaving wouldn't help on either count.
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Oct 30, 2015 23:27
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So to play a devil's advocate, what exactly does our country depend on an import/export market for in order for our citizens to survive? Not to necessarily 'prosper' in an import/export market. But say a magical iron curtain popped up overnight that blocked us off from the world, what stops us from surviving? And no, this is not an argument for leaving the EU (as an argument it would be loving stupid) but a thought experiment.
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Oct 30, 2015 23:57
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Benjamin Arthur posted:The EU is a neoliberal entity and is ideologically committed to austerity, leaving would be a good thing. The EU is poo poo, and rapidly becoming shitter, but don't pretend the alternative wouldn't be worse.
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Oct 30, 2015 23:59
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Tesseraction posted:So to play a devil's advocate, what exactly does our country depend on an import/export market for in order for our citizens to survive? Apparently about 70% of our food, for a start. Pharmaceuticals, lots of international trade there. As of last week, basic building materials. So I guess we can survive if we eat each other, grind up the remains of the bankers to extract the residual cocaine to use as painkillers, and construct all future housing from the bones of the dead. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Oct 31, 2015 |
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Oct 31, 2015 00:01
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Tesseraction posted:So to play a devil's advocate, what exactly does our country depend on an import/export market for in order for our citizens to survive? I'm fairly sure we import about 40% of our food. I guess a lot of is wasted and could be redistributed but it would still be unpleasant. We would also face an immediate orange and more pressingly tea shortage, presumably beginning an immediate civil war to secure the few domestic tea producing areas.
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Oct 31, 2015 00:03
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OwlFancier posted:Apparently about 70% of our food, for a start. I really don't think the UK would starve to death if it had any reasonable notice to get intensive farming tech going in the mainland, although it'd be a sharp learning curve. Nobody grows food, that's what poor countries do.
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Oct 31, 2015 00:04
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Tesseraction posted:So to play a devil's advocate, what exactly does our country depend on an import/export market for in order for our citizens to survive? You could try balancing these out http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/exports and see what we couldn't bodge together as a replacement under autarky.
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Oct 31, 2015 00:06
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Spangly A posted:I really don't think the UK would starve to death if it had any reasonable notice to get intensive farming tech going in the mainland, although it'd be a sharp learning curve. Nobody grows food, that's what poor countries do. I would be a bit surprised if we don't have enough land to sustain ourselves but it would still involve a rather serious change in priorities. Not to mention the price differences for out of season or continental foods. Even if we can feed everyone, we can't feed everyone the same way we do now.
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Oct 31, 2015 00:07
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We grow a lot of cereals and vegetables, but meat and exotic fruit would probably be scarcer.
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Oct 31, 2015 00:13
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This is also assuming a complete removal from trade with EU members, which seems unlikely (although I'm sure it would be attempted). I wouldnt entirely count out public backlash from public who feel some sense of solidarity with a country that managed to escape the EU. For the record, I feel like a reformed EU would be the best end result. I just feel like the odds of that happening are slim-to-none, especially so long as Germany & Co. are involved.
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Oct 31, 2015 00:19
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Spangly A posted:I really don't think the UK would starve to death if it had any reasonable notice to get intensive farming tech going in the mainland, although it'd be a sharp learning curve. Nobody grows food, that's what poor countries do. Apparently we're already throwing away about a third of what we grow domestically before it even gets to the shops, because supermarkets are picky bastards with hosed up aesthetic standards.
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Oct 31, 2015 00:20
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Point is, leaving the EU would mean a lot of stuff gets more expensive or poorer quality.
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Oct 31, 2015 00:21
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Renaissance Robot posted:Apparently we're already throwing away about a third of what we grow domestically before it even gets to the shops, because supermarkets are picky bastards with hosed up aesthetic standards. Only in years where theres a bumper crop, in years when its lean they accept the stuff they won't buy and us consumers don't know the difference. Its criminal.
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Oct 31, 2015 00:22
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If under 25s would be exempt from the proposed minwage increase won't businesses just turn the jobs that currently pay minwage into jobs reserved for under 25s and make the current slightly-higher-that-min jobs into numinwage jobs for over 25s? That way they'd keep their wage bills pretty much the same despite the supposed rise. (I guess that assumes there's enough people of the right ages willing to work those jobs for those wages)
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Oct 31, 2015 00:28
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Surprise Giraffe posted:If under 25s would be exempt from the proposed minwage increase won't businesses just turn the jobs that currently pay minwage into jobs reserved for under 25s and make the current slightly-higher-that-min jobs into numinwage jobs for over 25s? That way they'd keep their wage bills pretty much the same despite the supposed rise. (I guess that assumes there's enough people of the right ages willing to work those jobs for those wages) No, capital would never exploit cheaper labour in this way. It just doesn't make sense.
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Oct 31, 2015 00:29
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How can it be a living wage if it doesn't apply to under 25's? What are these 18-24 year olds going to do to survive?
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Oct 31, 2015 00:30
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Surprise Giraffe posted:If under 25s would be exempt from the proposed minwage increase won't businesses just turn the jobs that currently pay minwage into jobs reserved for under 25s and make the current slightly-higher-that-min jobs into numinwage jobs for over 25s? That way they'd keep their wage bills pretty much the same despite the supposed rise. (I guess that assumes there's enough people of the right ages willing to work those jobs for those wages) Our youth employment figures are going to be fantastic! Of course the low skilled over 25's will be hosed.
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Oct 31, 2015 00:33
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serious gaylord posted:How can it be a living wage if it doesn't apply to under 25's? What are these 18-24 year olds going to do to survive? Get On(tm), that's what
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Oct 31, 2015 00:33
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serious gaylord posted:How can it be a living wage if it doesn't apply to under 25's? What are these 18-24 year olds going to do to survive? Live with/off their parents.
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Oct 31, 2015 00:34
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The minimum wage has different rates based on age, too.
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Oct 31, 2015 00:34
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Also, you know how we can borrow money basically indefinitely because the Almighty Markets in their Great Wisdom believe we have a strong economy? Yeah, guess how long that one's going to last after a Brexit. (Hint: until the first hedge fund panics, whether they're right to do so or not.)
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Oct 31, 2015 00:40
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I said this with indyref but does the government actually have to act based on the results of the referendum?
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Oct 31, 2015 00:43
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namesake posted:Live with/off their parents. upcoming decrease in the Tory vote upcoming after parents have to share a place with their insufferable children for 6 more years and/or, upcoming decrease in the not-Tory vote as children without parents who can support them shrivel up in the streets or wherever it is the poors go
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Oct 31, 2015 00:45
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serious gaylord posted:How can it be a living wage if it doesn't apply to under 25's? What are these 18-24 year olds going to do to survive? Live with their parents, whom they obviously have, and get along with. What's an orphan? Lalala I can't hear you If you have parents but they disowned you, this is obviously a result of poor life choices on your part. I recommend you do a shitload of blues, catch the 5:15 to Brighton and hurl yourself of the nearest cliff.
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Oct 31, 2015 00:45
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I mean, the very idea that someone might not be able to get a job where their parents live is surely laughable.
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Oct 31, 2015 00:47
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serious gaylord posted:How can it be a living wage if it doesn't apply to under 25's? What are these 18-24 year olds going to do to survive? gently caress all, if my experience is at all accurate
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Oct 31, 2015 00:51
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Neurolimal posted:plenty of countries seem to get by fine without entering a suicide pact and helping to take runny shits all over poor countries we didn't enter the suicide pact, that's why our economy is just a shambles rather than a smoking hole
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Oct 31, 2015 00:54
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