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Just seems illogical. If you believe he kicked him on purpose, then he deserves everything he gets and more. If you believe it happened accidentally (as race direction do), then effectively taking away his championship over slowing down and running wide seems pretty extreme, especially as race direction also have telemetry showing that there was 'merit' in Rossi's accusation that MM was slowing both of them down deliberately. I mean, Simoncelli just got a ride-through for punting Pedrosa off mid-corner and I'd argue that was worse because it was totally unprovoked and he would've known full well that there was a very high chance of Pedro crashing as a result. Rossi engineered a situation where there was the possibility of a crash after being provoked pretty badly. Simoncelli engineered a situation where there was a very high probability of a crash just because he wanted to make a pass, yet he got a less severe penalty. On the whole I think Pedro is right in saying the rule book is too vague and the rulings desperately inconsistent.
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Oct 28, 2015 03:23
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Spiffness posted:https://motomatters.com/analysis/2015/10/27/2015_sepang_motogp_round_up_heroes_who_h.html Slavvy posted:I mean, Simoncelli just got a ride-through for punting Pedrosa off mid-corner and I'd argue that was worse because it was totally unprovoked and he would've known full well that there was a very high chance of Pedro crashing as a result. Rossi engineered a situation where there was the possibility of a crash after being provoked pretty badly. Simoncelli engineered a situation where there was a very high probability of a crash just because he wanted to make a pass, yet he got a less severe penalty. Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Oct 28, 2015 |
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Oct 28, 2015 03:39
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Senna. Prost. The internet would explode if that kinda poo poo happened now judging by this whole thing.
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Oct 28, 2015 03:43
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BlackMK4 posted:Senna. Prost.
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Oct 28, 2015 03:48
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Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:I just watched the youtube of this, assuming I found the right youtube, and it didn't seem nearly as blatant an interfering move as what Rossi did. It looked like a really aggressive pass. Rossi was practically stopping the bike on the track and dropping the kickstand and standing in front of Marquez with his arms out as he tried to come through the corner. I've never seen something that blatant and obvious in pro bike racing to gently caress with another rider. Not that I'm an expert on bike racing but that looked like dumb NASCAR pit lane drama crap. Put it this way: if MM hadn't crashed, rossi's actions would've seemed justified based on MM's actions. It's like someone getting on your nerves and up in your poo poo so you give them a shove to get them out of your space (technically an illegal assault) and then they trip over backward and break their neck and suddenly you're going down for manslaughter. ninja edit: I'm in no way defending him, I'm just saying that the penalty seems inordinately harsh considering the circumstances, precedents and amount of grey area involved. That's my expressed view and doesn't represent the views of SomethingAwful.com forums or Richard "Lowtax" Kyanka. Slavvy fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Oct 28, 2015 |
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Oct 28, 2015 04:06
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Slavvy posted:It's like someone getting on your nerves and up in your poo poo so you give them a shove to get them out of your space (technically an illegal assault) and then they trip over backward and break their neck and suddenly you're going down for manslaughter. I was actually about to make a similar analogy. I don't believe Rossi could have deliberately kicked Marquez's bike in such a way to make him. Don't forget they have protectors covering their brake levers. I think it'd be a lot harder to kick a brake lever past a protector while riding a motorbike in tight leathers with clunky boots on while looking the other way than the internet seems to think. Rossi obviously (and admittedly) ran Marquez wide and was clearly trying to "have a word" with him. Marquez egged him on, sure, but Rossi created this sketchy situation on his own. As far as the penalty goes I think it's pretty fair. If deliberately and admittedly causing someone to crash (murder) gets you 5 points, then deliberately and admittedly creating a dumb situation but accidentally causing a crash (manslaughter) getting 3 seems fair. Rossi wouldn't be starting from the back of the grid if he didn't have a point already this season, so him starting last in Valencia is actually the culmination of two entirely separate punishments. Really I think the fact that so many people think the punishment is too harsh and so many think it's too lenient means it's probably about right 
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Oct 28, 2015 05:34
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Gay Nudist Dad posted:I was actually about to make a similar analogy. Right. It's more bothering me that race direction were entirely aware that giving him three points would effectively cost him the championship and they chose to proceed anyway, which seems unfair. It isn't like the crash cost Marquez a championship; it didn't even cost him a placing because Pedrosa is too far back to overtake him for third place. That being said I can't imagine any other suitable punishment; I think a late race ride-through would have been ideal but I think race direction as a whole is really slack in gp. Why didn't they give the warning signal when it was obviously getting out of hand (9 passes in one lap ffs) to let them know they were being watched and consequences would be dire if anyone tried some poo poo?
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Oct 28, 2015 05:48
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Gay Nudist Dad posted:Really I think the fact that so many people think the punishment is too harsh and so many think it's too lenient means it's probably about right Yup. I also think that there is still a decent chance Rossi pulls this out.
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Oct 28, 2015 06:25
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As much as I like how the thread title turned out people are writing the championship off but Rossi has a points lead...there is a lot of advantage to that. Combine that with the pressure being on Lorenzo and I think Rossi is in with a chance if just one thing is a little off in Valencia. Wet race, jorge crash in practice, lots of things could shake it up. The expectation is that Jorge does well and Rossi needs to make a lot of passes to keep it, but strange things happen and Rossi can win if Jorge crashes in the race or before. Comedy option of Rossi gets pole but starts on the dirty side of the grid, next to JLo and MM. JLo and MM get a run off the line but VR torpedoes the both of them in Turn 1, taking his revenge on Marquez and the Championship in one crash. They can't dock earned points IIRC and T1 in Valencia has had some carnage in the past. nsaP fucked around with this message at 06:31 on Oct 28, 2015 |
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Oct 28, 2015 06:28
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That can't happen because he'll be at the very back no matter what. Someone else could though.
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Oct 28, 2015 06:46
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I take it you haven't seen the petition
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Oct 28, 2015 06:51
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I even linked it earlier 
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Oct 28, 2015 07:19
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Ah I hadn't (or glossed over it) but... it's an online petition so... Rossi'll start at the back.
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Oct 28, 2015 11:31
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Spiffness posted:That can't happen because he'll be at the very back no matter what. Someone else could though. I think the idea is if he full throttles it through turn 1, without braking to actually take the turn like everyone else, he can catch up and hit JL, taking him out and winning the championship.
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Oct 28, 2015 13:20
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hayden. posted:I think the idea is if he full throttles it through turn 1, without braking to actually take the turn like everyone else, he can catch up and hit JL, taking him out and winning the championship. What you're saying is he needs to conduct his race like it's Gran Turismo 1 IRL.
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Oct 28, 2015 18:00
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hayden. posted:I think the idea is if he full throttles it through turn 1, without braking to actually take the turn like everyone else, he can catch up and hit JL, taking him out and winning the championship. man, just have him killed.
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Oct 28, 2015 18:54
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hayden. posted:I think the idea is if he full throttles it through turn 1, without braking to actually take the turn like everyone else, he can catch up and hit JL, taking him out and winning the championship. People would still cheer Rossi for that too, just because Jorge is so boring.
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Oct 28, 2015 19:06
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Here's Jorge Lorenzo without his human form exoskeleton: http://lanesplitter.jalopnik.com/meet-motobot-yamahas-motorcycle-riding-robot-that-aims-1739165853 Lorenzobot to Valentino Rossi posted:I am improving my skills every day but I am not sure I could even beat the five-year-old you. Perhaps if I learn everything about you, I will be able to catch up... FlerpNerpin fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Oct 28, 2015 |
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Oct 28, 2015 19:11
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Lol someone on reddit agreed and simulated it on the video game https://gfycat.com/ScarceOfficialGrayfox
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Oct 29, 2015 01:14
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Yessss 
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Oct 29, 2015 01:26
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nsaP posted:Lol someone on reddit agreed and simulated it on the video game This is incredible holy gently caress.
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Oct 29, 2015 03:13
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nsaP posted:Lol someone on reddit agreed and simulated it on the video game This is the best thing.
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Oct 29, 2015 04:15
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Yes it is. Saddens me that we cannot see Lorenzo lose the championship that way.
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Oct 29, 2015 04:21
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Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:Both Senna and Prost could FAR more plausibly have said their crashes were accidental than Rossi could about what he just did. Huh? Did you see Senna's straight-line drive into Prost at the first corner of Suzuka???? It's like he forgot there was a wheel on his car...
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Oct 29, 2015 22:25
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Slavvy posted:It's like someone getting on your nerves and up in your poo poo so you give them a shove to get them out of your space (technically an illegal assault) and then they trip over backward and break their neck and suddenly you're going down for manslaughter. What you just described is the law working entirely as intended.
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Oct 31, 2015 07:27
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Smudgie Buggler posted:What you just described is the law working entirely as intended. The analogy breaks down when you consider that MM didn't die from crashing, yes.
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Oct 31, 2015 07:32
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Rossi broke rules. Marquez did not. End of story, I'd hope.
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Oct 31, 2015 07:48
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Slavvy posted:The analogy breaks down when you consider that MM didn't die from crashing, yes. No poo poo, but the fact that outcomes are unpredictable is the reason why assault is illegal regardless of whether anybody is hurt. --- This argument that Marquez was 'loving with' Rossi is ridiculous. So what if he was? It's a race, not a time trial. The riders aren't competing against the track, they're competing against each other, and they are in no way obliged to allow fellow riders to go around the course as fast as they can. If one wants to get all up in another's poo poo, that's part of the game, and the line dividing tactics into 'acceptable' and 'unacceptable' isn't that fuzzy: don't physically interfere with another rider's bike or deliberately cause a crash. I'm pretty sure Rossi did the former, but also pretty sure he didn't do the latter. Regardless, there was absolutely no justification for it. Unless you consider riding lawfully and competitively provocation, I don't see how anybody can think the penalty is too harsh, or that Rossi deserves one iota of sympathy due to some facet of how Marquez was riding.
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Oct 31, 2015 08:10
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Smudgie Buggler posted:No poo poo, but the fact that outcomes are unpredictable is the reason why assault is illegal regardless of whether anybody is hurt. The bolded part falls down when you watch the replays and realise that Marquez turned into Rossi, causing the initial contact. Sure, Rossi was playing dirty by being there and pushing Marquez wide, but it's not like that's an odd tactic, Marquez did it about 2 corners earlier to Rossi, just not so extreme.
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Oct 31, 2015 08:25
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Yup. If you agree with the penalty you agree with the FIM. If you agree with the FIM then you agree that Rossi didn't hit Marquez.
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Oct 31, 2015 08:45
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Shimrod posted:The bolded part falls down when you watch the replays and realise that Marquez turned into Rossi, causing the initial contact. Sure, Rossi was playing dirty by being there and pushing Marquez wide, but it's not like that's an odd tactic, Marquez did it about 2 corners earlier to Rossi, just not so extreme. What replays are you talking about? I've only seen the two angles. The original broadcast angle is pretty ambiguous, but the aerial footage makes Rossi's story that Marquez's handlebar took his foot off its peg look completely absurd. It's not absolutely incontrovertibly deliberate, which is why I only say I'm pretty sure about it, but Rossi's leg lifts before Marquez's bars turn in the low side, which is the only point at which they could have forcibly unseated Rossi's foot. It's Rossi's story looking like such total bullshit that makes me confident he intentionally kicked. The idea that he was aiming for the brake lever is silly, though. If there's evidence from other footage that I'm wrong, I'm open to it. I agree intentionality is not entirely self-evident here, but it's Rossi's body language in the second or so preceding the crash and the dubiousness of his account of events that sells it for me. Marquez was not already crashing when Rossi's foot came off the peg, which is what the latter claims. Slavvy posted:Yup. If you agree with the penalty you agree with the FIM. If you agree with the FIM then you agree that Rossi didn't hit Marquez. I kind of don't, though. An intentional kick, regardless of where it was aimed, warrants disqualification. I think the kick was probably intentional, but not provably so. I think the ruling is silly, because if they really believed there was no intention to kick, they shouldn't have given anything like that harsh a penalty. But I think the penalty applied is a reasonable and appropriate middle ground between 'no penalty/ride through' and 'disqualification/indictment' as a balance-of-probabilities compromise regarding whether or not it was intentional. The penalty is too harsh in relation to the official account of the facts, but about right in relation to what I think probably happened in reality. Smudgie Buggler fucked around with this message at 09:05 on Oct 31, 2015 |
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Oct 31, 2015 08:55
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Dude, he didn't kick him, his foot came off the peg, right after they'd collided, like it had a few times already throughout the race (3 other times off the top of my head). It's not hard for your foot to slip, especially if there's contact. If he'd kicked him he'd be banned from racing, ever.
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Oct 31, 2015 09:10
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When you are about to collide with someone in a racing situation, you stick your limbs out to make contact early to try and avoid sticking your bar, peg, or catching fairings in a way that's gonna bring you both down. It's also a notification to the other racer that you're leaning on them/they're leaning on you, and lets them know where you're at. Pushing your leg or knee out is completely natural and normal, you see it to a minor or greater degree in all contact incidents, as long as the lines of the riders are crossing. You see it less if one rider has a consistent line and the other rider is just leaning on them, and significantly more in pitched battles where the line choices become less consistent. The only pity here is that Marquez crashed and the dumbest part is that Rossi looked at him. If he hadn't made it so loving obvious he was pissed, it would have been played off as a racing incident, just like every other time that Rossi has done something like this. I think this might be the first time we've seen the GOAT break under pressure...probably because this is the first time that he's been competitive and also had competition he couldn't mind game (or shove) into the gravel. Gonna be interesting. Z3n fucked around with this message at 09:33 on Oct 31, 2015 |
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Oct 31, 2015 09:30
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Z3n posted:I think this might be the first time we've seen the GOAT break under pressure...probably because this is the first time that he's been competitive and also had competition he couldn't mind game (or shove) into the gravel. Gonna be interesting. Yup this. Marquez got to him.
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Oct 31, 2015 09:32
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It seemed pretty clear to me from the broadcast slow mo that MM's head hits VR's puck before VR pushes his knee out to fend him off. His foot coming off the peg is just a side effect of that effort, I reckon. And yeah, his foot slipped off the peg a couple of times in the preceding corners. That seems to happen a fair bit to Rossi, actually.
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Oct 31, 2015 10:45
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Slavvy posted:Yup this. Marquez got to him. Seems like part of the problem is that Rossi is competing with Lorenzo, not Marquez. He's made Marquez crash a couple times and beaten him a couple times this year but he's competing with Lorenzo for the title, not Marquez so it's not doing him any good.
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Oct 31, 2015 15:56
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Whether he was kicked or whatever is alright to argue about but irrelevant to the penalty. The penalty was for irresponsible riding which caused another rider to crash. Had he pushed him wide without being off the throttle for multiple seconds and without eyeballing him 2 or 3 times it would have been a racing incident. There's block passing and then there is what Rossi did, which was put his bike on the inside and then pretty much park it while making sure he was blocking off MM's path, legal in a racing situation but not to the extent that Rossi did it. They were drat near out of track before Rossi even attempted to make the turn and MM had no chance. With a real block pass you have the intention of at least getting near the apex of the turn. With the news of Rossi's appeal I'm pretty disillusioned with the whole thing. Up until, and after PI, I was happy about one of the greatest seasons of recent memory. I consider myself a racing fan tho, not a fan of any particular rider, and at this point I really don't give a poo poo about Valencia and who wins the Title. Might not even watch. Everyone has lost as far as I'm concerned.
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Oct 31, 2015 16:05
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Rossi didn't hit marquez, MARQUEZ HIT ROSSI #kneegate
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Oct 31, 2015 19:24
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nsaP posted:With the news of Rossi's appeal I'm pretty disillusioned with the whole thing. Up until, and after PI, I was happy about one of the greatest seasons of recent memory. I consider myself a racing fan tho, not a fan of any particular rider, and at this point I really don't give a poo poo about Valencia and who wins the Title. Might not even watch. Everyone has lost as far as I'm concerned. I don't often agree with you wholeheartedly but this is pretty much how I see it. It's like formula one now. Hopefully next season with the altered rules, tyres etc mixes it up enough that the same kind of situation won't have the opportunity to arise.
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Oct 31, 2015 21:43
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Slavvy posted:I don't often agree with you wholeheartedly but this is pretty much how I see it. It's like formula one now. I don't know. From an outsider's perspective, I actually enjoy the poo poo show. I think Rossi had a right to push him wide just as MM had the right to go for it. I think MM's head coming into contact with Rossi should be just as egregious as Rossi pushing him wide intentionally, especially on Rossi's leg. Rossi having a points lead but starting from the rear makes it exciting enough to that I might even try to figure out when the race is and if I can watch it!
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Oct 31, 2015 22:17
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