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While I had the same kind of visceral dislike to the episode as Jakiri, I will say that I agree with DocWhat in that I don't think the writer intends for it to come over as it does, on the contrary I can easily believe he means well and is trying to make a good point with the story. Unfortunately, as with 'Kill The Moon', he's so goddamn ham-handed and hacky that the whole thing unintentionally has almost the opposite effect, it's just too tacky and on the nose. But yeah, never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence, etc. I can't shake the feeling this whole awkward garbage pile of poor taste exists so that at the end of it all the Doctor can look at the screen, raise his sunglasses and tell Clara and the world that the best way for everyone to get along is to - winks at camera - let Zygons be Zygons. Good joke, everyone laughs, credits roll, televisions are punched, fade to black.
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Nov 1, 2015 13:01
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I like to believe Harry Sullivan came up with the Zygon weapon by accident and he and the Seventh Doctor worked together to steal it away from the MOD.
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Nov 1, 2015 13:07
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Wheat Loaf posted:I don't know if I'm entirely sure about the argument that Britain is the only country that's not done anything about the refugees - not as much as we could be, certainly, but surely you would agree that the Hungarian government have had a worse response? UK's done that too. On the other side of the tunnel. For relative values of 'big'.
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Nov 1, 2015 13:18
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SiKboy posted:They werent forced to assimilate by the evil nasty humans imposing terrible conditions. They negotiated a treaty that, as the "previously on" reiterated, was explicitly stated to be the fairest treaty possible, with neither side knowing which side they were negotiating for. So the message here is explicitly "They wont be satisfied with a fair compromise or keep their word even if we have come to an understanding".
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Nov 1, 2015 13:20
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Despite how crappy this episode was, there were a few little things I liked. The picture of Hartnell. And when the Doctor rescued Osgood from the camp and the Zygon appeared, he said "Oh, hello!" in a perfect imitation of Tennant's doctor. That was nice.
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Nov 1, 2015 13:24
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Is Harry developing an Anti-Zygon weapon so far-fetched when A) he was part of the military and B) got pretty comprehensively hosed over by the Zygons including IIRC getting shot in the head by one, abducted, imprisoned and impersonated.
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Nov 1, 2015 13:30
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CobiWann posted:I like to believe Harry Sullivan came up with the Zygon weapon by accident and he and the Seventh Doctor worked together to steal it away from the MOD. I'll be upset if they reveal that the Doctor is still in possession of it instead of chucking it in the nearest black hole as soon as he stole it.
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Nov 1, 2015 13:48
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Maybe "it turns them inside out" isn't literal, it does some other dumb thing and that's the "inversion". Could be what's in the mystery box.
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Nov 1, 2015 13:53
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Davros1 posted:I'll be upset if they reveal that the Doctor is still in possession of it instead of chucking it in the nearest black hole as soon as he stole it. There's no way it won't come up as a 'solution' to the problem, given they specifically wrote it in instead of bringing back a plot point from a classic episode like I thought (I haven't seen the Zygon episode they were talking about the events of). I'm not sure what to think about how it could come up, because there is a very real possibility this could go from 'problematic' to 'just outright rancid' in the next episode, but I still think they could swing momentum through to fix the message of the overall story. Knowing they've specifically included this detail, and that the Doctor swiped it, makes the stakes a little different. A story with lovely messaging can be brushed away--I think Forest of the Night will ultimately be forgotten or ignored as time goes on. But making the Doctor that complicit in the lovely messaging could do a lot of damage. We're talking 'Twin Dilemma' damage.
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Nov 1, 2015 14:05
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For what it's worth, the reviewer in the Express (which is probably our most casually racist paper, Daily Mail notwithstanding) thought it was a brilliant and adult episode that really cut to the heart of the ISIS problem.SiKboy posted:(unintended message number 73 in this episode; They dont respect your places of worship and will hide behind them to get away with their atrocities) I knew there was something about that scene that I wanted to say, I just couldn't find the words. Wheat Loaf posted:Fair enough. One thing that is interesting is that in most parts of the EU the right wing is ideologically right wing. Our government is right wing because of convenience - the mother of one of my housemates is a politician and we just spent a couple of hours talking shop (from her point of view, anyway) and the thing she came back to time and again is that Cameron believes nothing of what he says, and is especially uninterested in foreign policy. Cerv posted:stuff that just about works in the original context because you don't think about it too hard never leads to good sequels and should be left well enough alone. Moffat's said that they always had a story like this in mind when making the previous story 
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Nov 1, 2015 14:55
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the subtext of this story is... problematic
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Nov 1, 2015 14:59
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Espilae posted:the subtext of this story is... problematic 
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Nov 1, 2015 15:01
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My wife just told me I'm too worked up about a TV show and I should just let "Zygons be Zygons." Do I... A. Smile and quietly say "Happy Anniversary, sweetie." B. "Oh? Two words. Laurel Lance." C. Sever. D. Run up the stairs and hope she can't follow.
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Nov 1, 2015 15:06
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I'm in agreement that there's no way the ultimate message of this story is going to be "all Zygons are bad." We here a little bit about these good Zygons, and we even see a whole...two of them? Zygon ISIS is a great idea for a story, but then you really have to stress how it's just the ISIS Zygons who are evil, especially because, due to the limitations of special effects, they literally all look alike. Have the Doctor interviewing a bunch of Zygon families, trying to find out if they've heard anything. Or give Zygon ISIS some lines referring to their numbers. They could call themselves "the ninety-nine" or "the three hundred and thirty-three" or something like that. "There are hundreds of ussss!" I'm definitely going to hold off on some of my concerns until the second episode, though.
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Nov 1, 2015 15:08
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MrL_JaKiri posted:One thing that is interesting is that in most parts of the EU the right wing is ideologically right wing. Our government is right wing because of convenience - the mother of one of my housemates is a politician and we just spent a couple of hours talking shop (from her point of view, anyway) and the thing she came back to time and again is that Cameron believes nothing of what he says, and is especially uninterested in foreign policy. Fair enough. My entire perception of politics is informed by growing up in Northern Ireland and becoming politically aware after the Belfast Agreement and it's probably skewed my view a bit.
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Nov 1, 2015 15:08
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Espilae posted:the subtext of this story is... problematic Hyyyyyyydromatic
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Nov 1, 2015 15:10
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CobiWann posted:D. Run up the stairs and hope she can't follow. DUN DUN DUNNNNN 
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Nov 1, 2015 15:11
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Twitter had loads of people posting some variant of let zygons be zygons last night
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Nov 1, 2015 15:13
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haha sorry I posted that without reading your excellent take on the situation, carry on nothing to see here
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Nov 1, 2015 15:14
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Espilae posted:haha sorry I posted that without reading your excellent take on the situation, carry on nothing to see here Nah more posting is good, never stop posting
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Nov 1, 2015 15:16
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It was essentially my first visceral reaction at the end of the episode. Like how many times did you actually put 'radicalisation' in the script, for gently caress's sake, Peter "Kill the Fetus" Harness
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Nov 1, 2015 15:19
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CobiWann posted:My wife just told me I'm too worked up about a TV show and I should just let "Zygons be Zygons." First Laurel owns. Second, where is your option for applauding her for the pun. As an American, I do see the writer trying to break down a complex problem but in the broadest strokes possible which can make this episode problematic to some.
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Nov 1, 2015 15:51
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Who Who looked at Kill The Moon, and then said "Yes. Let us give this man two episodes to write next time." Usually the first episode is your best, and even people who like Kill The Moon tend to agree it wasn't the strongest script. Who thought giving this man a two parter was a good idea? I really hope he just turns it all the way around next week but Jesus Christ. I miss Flatline.
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Nov 1, 2015 16:13
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At least Moffat's co-writing next week.. it'll come back around.. right? 
Infinitum fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Nov 1, 2015 |
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Nov 1, 2015 16:19
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Mooseontheloose posted:First Laurel owns. Second, where is your option for applauding her for the pun. The issue is that it isn't "problematic to some" It's that it's "problematic to the entire primary audience of the show", as MrL_JaKiri already nailed right on the head. This isn't just a small subset of people like Forest of the Night and mental issues, this is a major political issue for the entire UK, Europe, and Australia that the writer's hamfisted his way into a bad script.
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Nov 1, 2015 16:26
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Infinitum posted:At least Moffat's co-writing next week.. it'll come back around.. right? That just means that there'll be a 10 minute sequence at the end leading into the finale
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Nov 1, 2015 17:21
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Rochallor posted:I'm in agreement that there's no way the ultimate message of this story is going to be "all Zygons are bad." We here a little bit about these good Zygons, and we even see a whole...two of them? Zygon ISIS is a great idea for a story, but then you really have to stress how it's just the ISIS Zygons who are evil, especially because, due to the limitations of special effects, they literally all look alike. Have the Doctor interviewing a bunch of Zygon families, trying to find out if they've heard anything. Or give Zygon ISIS some lines referring to their numbers. They could call themselves "the ninety-nine" or "the three hundred and thirty-three" or something like that. "There are hundreds of ussss!" On some level, I appreciate what they're trying to do. "You think these real life people are scary and a threat. Look how much of a scary threat they are! So scary!" and then episode two will be, "But did you consider that... they're not scary? What a twist! Makes you think." The idea being that they're trying to get people who already are kind of apolitically scared by the whole situation on board with the comparison, and then by inverting it, make them think about their fears. It's not an idea without issues (it involves portraying refugees as scary without much qualification for a whole episode), and it's not been especially elegantly done (the Doctor was disgustingly neutral about killing Zygons), but I really like the idea of it. Assuming they do effectively invert things next episode, that is. If they don't do that effectively, then this episode is just as bad as everyone's saying.
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Nov 1, 2015 17:32
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Rochallor posted:I'm in agreement that there's no way the ultimate message of this story is going to be "all Zygons are bad." We here a little bit about these good Zygons, and we even see a whole...two of them? Zygon ISIS is a great idea for a story, but then you really have to stress how it's just the ISIS Zygons who are evil, especially because, due to the limitations of special effects, they literally all look alike. Have the Doctor interviewing a bunch of Zygon families, trying to find out if they've heard anything. Or give Zygon ISIS some lines referring to their numbers. They could call themselves "the ninety-nine" or "the three hundred and thirty-three" or something like that. "There are hundreds of ussss!" I think the issue some of us have isn't that there are some evil Zygons or not enough time spent on good Zygons, but that the inherent premise of the episode is a load of 'clash of civilisations' nonsense. It's especially awful when it appropriates real world imagery for its own purposes, cross-contaminating a real global crisis with a stupid Britain Under Siege narrative. Also Zygons look terrible.
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Nov 1, 2015 17:39
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Okay question for you folks. Do you have a problem with the fact that the show tackled this issue at all or the fact that they didn't handle it better?.
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Nov 1, 2015 18:46
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Captain Fargle posted:Okay question for you folks. Do you have a problem with the fact that the show tackled this issue at all or the fact that they didn't handle it better?. See the ISIS stuff is in theory fine in theory because they're just the latest bunch of assholes who've made a name for being assholes and make life a little worse for everyone. It's entirely the way the show went about it and also then threw in the double whammy of "Refugees are secretly hostile threats that do not want to coexist and instead want to dominate and murder" and all of the xenophobic bullshit that comes from that, shall we say, awkward message. You know, considering the refugee crisis going on in Europe right the gently caress now, and the very stupid and VERY racist fears that if you let refugees in, you let terrorists in and they can bllllllllllllllaargh. That's the kind of mindset this episode brings out to me, which is distressingly common even here in the loving States where we DON'T have that problem. You would have to be entirely ignorant of the sickening attitudes towards refugees and how they are being dehumanized to miss this. Seriously read what MrL_JaKiri wrote on the current situation.
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Nov 1, 2015 18:51
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Interestingly, I've seen quite a few Tories and nationalists in various comment sections complaining this episode was too "preachy." Here's hoping next week proves them right at least.
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Nov 1, 2015 18:55
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I think both issues have the same solution: make it more subtle, less on the nose. The more contemporaneous your reference the less on the nose about it you have to be (because everyone will get it much more easily) and the less on the nose about it you want it to be. There's a very good chance that there'll be people watching who have had friends or family killed or kidnapped by ISIS; is there really that much to be gained by including it?Gravastars posted:Interestingly, I've seen quite a few Tories and nationalists in various comment sections complaining this episode was too "preachy." That's not a surprise. The horrible racist mindset that I criticise the episode for assuming is one that they'll almost certainly have. MrL_JaKiri fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Nov 1, 2015 |
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Nov 1, 2015 18:57
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Captain Fargle posted:Okay question for you folks. Do you have a problem with the fact that the show tackled this issue at all or the fact that they didn't handle it better?. Honestly, I think that shows like Who CAN tackle real world issues like this. But when its an emotive issue (and particularly a CURRENT issue) you have to think long and hard about the message you are trying to send, and your script has to be on point. gently caress up getting your themes across effectively an episode about the power of love or whatever and its a bad/mediocre episode that is lost in the shuffle. Not so much if you gently caress up a script so badly that it essentially says "Muslims are the enemy within!" (and even with the forthcoming "most of the evil stuff you saw this week was actually humans, most of the victims were in fact Zygons!" twist next week, that was still the message of this episode in isolation). So if this had been handled well I'd be applauding a brave script. But the thing with big risks like that is if it works you are brave. If it fails you are a loving idiot.
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Nov 1, 2015 19:02
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The worst crime this ep is guilty of is associating itself with the spectacular 50th Anniversary ep.
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Nov 1, 2015 19:08
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Kill the Mooslims
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Nov 1, 2015 19:09
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I can believe this episode was intended to oppose forced assimilation and there is some lip-service paid to the idea of "not all Zygons", but so much of the episode is just
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Nov 1, 2015 19:13
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MrL_JaKiri posted:I think both issues have the same solution: make it more subtle, less on the nose. The more contemporaneous your reference the less on the nose about it you have to be (because everyone will get it much more easily) and the less on the nose about it you want it to be. There's a very good chance that there'll be people watching who have had friends or family killed or kidnapped by ISIS; is there really that much to be gained by including it? It seems to me like that would be pretty cowardly. If you're gonna address an issue, do it openly. Getting people to talk about something is good, and it's amazing that Doctor Who can tackle something so current. Handing such a difficult topic to a guy who fails to put enough care into writing the story and the characters believably is worrying, though. SiKboy posted:Honestly, I think that shows like Who CAN tackle real world issues like this. But when its an emotive issue (and particularly a CURRENT issue) you have to think long and hard about the message you are trying to send, and your script has to be on point. gently caress up getting your themes across effectively an episode about the power of love or whatever and its a bad/mediocre episode that is lost in the shuffle. Not so much if you gently caress up a script so badly that it essentially says "Muslims are the enemy within!" (and even with the forthcoming "most of the evil stuff you saw this week was actually humans, most of the victims were in fact Zygons!" twist next week, that was still the message of this episode in isolation). While I agree in general, judging the two-parter by its first episode in isolation is a bit unfair. I'd even argue that getting the racists to spew all their bile after the first episode is exactly the intended result. As long as the next episode pulls the rug out from under them, that's totally acceptable.
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Nov 1, 2015 19:15
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Eiba posted:Another interesting point that I just realized... There were no major male characters in that whole episode besides the Doctor. And that dude who wouldn't shoot the obvious Zygon, I guess, but he was kind of minor. This is a cool thing I've noticed about the UNIT staff this season. Almost everyone with a speaking role seems to be a woman and it's just not commented on or considered unusual.
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Nov 1, 2015 19:36
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Infinitum posted:At least Moffat's co-writing next week.. it'll come back around.. right? All that means is that in the last 5 minutes of the episode, they'll recover the box that was teased in the original opening, open it to find that it contains the power of love, and then love will conquer all to give us a happy ending. At least I went into this one expecting it to be a massive dud, and walked away thinking -- well, that could have been worse.
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Nov 1, 2015 19:42
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One little story beat that would have gone a long way would have been for us to actually meet a few normal Zygons just going about their business. Maybe they've been picked up by UNIT, maybe the Doctor's just gone to them for their input or by following a false lead, or maybe that's who Kate runs into in New Mexico with one little Zygon family still there cleaning up and ashamed of what the others did. Then you have those Zygons talk about how lots of them have issues with being forced to stay in another form, how the ability to shapeshift is a core freedom and part of the Zygon way of life that the Doctor just ignored. You could get really poetic with it, like "Imagine you could be anyone, you could fly through the sky or run with the Zebras (just because I want to hear that English pronunciation of Zeb-ra), and then one day you couldn't." We could see them actively denounce the actions of ZISIS, and maybe even see them do so in Zygon form so every sucker monster we see in the episode isn't evil. Meanwhile, in the "picked up by UNIT" scenario you see that hey, maybe generalizing about a group of people/aliens and imprisoning them when they've done nothing wrong isn't a cool thing to do. But two little girls who get kidnapped and killed is all you need, right? Yeah, that covers that whole perspective that is said to be the majority position of the race. Gotta have time to show those nasty Zygons frying up people and being shifty!
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Nov 1, 2015 19:43
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