|
Really Pants posted:if only they were all 2e grogs instead Theres a difference between passive-agressive threadshitting and saying: "hey heres an idea from another edition that worked for us...". Its pretty difficult to tell the difference, but meditate on it for a while.
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2015 21:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 02:07 |
|
|
Nothing is more annoying than being 100% correct.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2015 21:08
|
|
|
Look if you want to survive at level one don't get hit! God forbid characters be at the risk of death then via bad math
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2015 21:28
|
|
|
mastershakeman posted:Look if you want to survive at level one don't get hit! God forbid characters be at the risk of death then via bad math Maybe this served some kind of purpose in the old dungeon grinder style games, where you bring 10 characters each and keep the ones that live and level up, but people don't really play that way anymore. Hell, the Background system in 5e specifically, and in general the complexity of character creation every D&D since 2e (especially if using Skills and Powers) actively discourages that play style. These days the game makes you think a lot about who your character is before you even get to the dungeon.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2015 21:43
|
|
|
Ryuujin posted:1st through 3rd level are the apprentice tier. And I was never happy about that change, if you want to make apprentice/poo poo farmer levels make a level 0 for the people who really want to do that. Don't make the start of the game a terrible boring slog of instant death. The worst part is they were trying to serve two polar opposite masters with this move. The first couple levels suck because "those are the tutorial levels" and because "level 1 characters should be basically disposable and die to a stiff breeze." So you have a tutorial that is also the harshest level band in the game 
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2015 21:53
|
|
|
mastershakeman posted:Look if you want to survive at level one don't get hit! God forbid characters be at the risk of death then via bad math This is loving stupid. Don't get hit? this isn't a skill based game where you can improve the timing of your dodge roll or Parry attempt and most classes don't have the means to avoid combat other than "don't go adventuring" so what's the game?
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2015 23:05
|
|
|
Fair enough that the 4th edition grognards are getting annoying. But the CON score at level 1 was objectively a better thing than a single maxed hit die. You can dislike a lot thing that 4th did, but this is a clear example of 4th doing something clearly better than 5th, and that regressing backwards was a terrible idea, likely done ONLY because they didn't want to be like 4th.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2015 23:15
|
|
|
Sure. Use the Con score as starting HP, or a max hit die plus a rolled hit die, or whatever. The 5e book may be a language-wreck, but having several decades of people to talk to about "how to play DnD" is seriously an intangible strength of the brand/title. May as well use it for something useful when people post about "we are going to start playing this game...".
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2015 23:25
|
|
|
FRINGE posted:The 5e book may be a language-wreck, but having several decades of people to talk to about "how to play DnD" is seriously an intangible strength of the brand/title. May as well use it for something useful when people post about "we are going to start playing this game...". Not when they all disagree violently with each other and constantly shout out that every style of play sucks and that you're a bad person if you don't play their specific way and etc, etc. Like at this point I'm gonna go ahead and say that D&D's fanbase is if anything one of the biggest barriers to getting in, and that's it's selling point.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2015 23:32
|
|
|
Did the idea of "tutorial levels" or "beginner levels" or anything like that actually make it into the rulebooks, or is it something that you're supposed to just kinda figure out?
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2015 23:33
|
|
|
The point isn't that we should go back to the precise way 4e solved it, but rather that this isn't supposed to be problem we're still facing anymore because even goddamned Pathfinder figured out that you shouldn't have dead levels six years ago. I mean, Monte Cook's Book of Experimental Might had some ideas: * Knock lets you take an Open Lock skill check or force-open Strength ability check using your caster level instead of just "shazzam open". Arcane Lock increases the Open Lock DC of a thing that you cast it on. * Stat-boosting spells like Cat's Grace are just "give up the spell slot and you get the stat boost for the entire day" because he openly admits that tracking the duration is just fiddly bullshit * Drop the Raise Dead spell entirely because of all the world-changing implications that that one spell has * Instead of a generic Polymorph, split it up into specific "you turn into Eagle" spell, and a "you turn into a Troll" spell, and a "you turn into a Spider" spell so that A. the stats are right there in the spell itself without having to go through the MM, B. you don't have the problem of the power of Polymorph escalating with every new MM, and C. the stats changes are standardized * All of the "save-or-die" spells were instead changed to "do a lot of hit point damage" spells * "All characters start with bonus hit points equal to their Constitution score", and then he spends a sidebar talking about the difference between this and "start the players at level 3" * Healing spells have been dropped from the spell lists entirely. Instead, Clerics and Druids can always spend an action to heal characters, and can further specialize to remove the need to spend an action completely. Characters just have a limit on how often they can receive magical healing. Sidebars talk about how A. Clerics/Druids shouldn't have to spend spell slots on healing anymore and B. Clerics/Druid also shouldn't have to spend actions on healing anymore in favoe of letting those players actually play the rest of the game by smashing faces in * The 9-level spell progression was split up into 20 levels of spell progression because "why the poo poo is there a 1-9 scale on top of all of the other number scales in the game? If you're a level 5 Wizard, you can cast spells up to level 5" Now granted, he still didn't solve the problem of "save-or-suck" spells on top of "save-or-dies", or the whole conceptual difference of being able to solve problems via utility spells versus using skill checks, and maybe the new 20-level spell progression was an indirect caster buff, and he was still trying to buff Fighters by giving them more powerful feats, but at least there was some semblance of stepping outside the comfort zone a little. And the other other alternative to "+CON to HP" or "start at level 3"? Actually line up the monster math so that level 1 monsters aren't capable of killing players faster than they can react. Drop the damage dice to nothing more than 1d3 and you can actually have an interesting back-and-forth between a 12 HP Paladin, a 14 HP Barbarian and a group of bush-league death cultists. There's a bunch of d20 material that tried to "fix" 3.5e without being (perceived as) a deviation from the core game as massive as 4e was. That we're still talking about the same problem right now is less about how we should all go back to 4e, and more about how 5e didn't even really try. AlphaDog posted:Did the idea of "tutorial levels" or "beginner levels" or anything like that actually make it into the rulebooks, or is it something that you're supposed to just kinda figure out? "In the first tier (levels 1-4), characters are effectively apprentice adventurers. They are learning the features that define them as members of particular classes, including the major choices that flavor their class features as they advance (such as a wizard’s Arcane Tradition or a fighter’s Martial Archetype). The threats they face are relatively minor, usually posing a danger to local farmsteads or villages." PHB, page 15
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2015 23:42
|
|
|
Kurieg posted:Weren't there originally going to be "Apprentice Levels" that you could start a game at where no one knew jack poo poo about D&D without actually having a class? This sounds a lot like Monte Cook's World of Darkness, where technically a level 1 PC would be equivalent to a level 4 PC in 3.5; meaning they had 4 hit die worth of Hit points, the saving throw progressions and skill rank maximum of 7, etc.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2015 23:51
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:"In the first tier (levels 1-4), characters are effectively apprentice adventurers. They are learning the features that define them as members of particular classes, including the major choices that flavor their class features as they advance (such as a wizard’s Arcane Tradition or a fighter’s Martial Archetype). The threats they face are relatively minor, usually posing a danger to local farmsteads or villages." If they meant that levels 1 through 3/4 were for inexperienced characters, then I misunderstood what the "beginner levels" thing was about. I thought it was for players learning the game rather than characters learning their trade. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Nov 1, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 00:12
|
|
|
Libertad! posted:This sounds a lot like Monte Cook's World of Darkness, where technically a level 1 PC would be equivalent to a level 4 PC in 3.5; meaning they had 4 hit die worth of Hit points, the saving throw progressions and skill rank maximum of 7, etc. That was what I was referencing, in fact. He also tried a different way of balancing magic in that game that works somewhat oddly. Dealing damage is relatively "Cheap" as far as magic is concerned, and doing big flashy things are expensive. But the way the spells are statted out, straight up killing a single guy with a touch is a relatively effortless task. Changing the prevaling weather patterns slowly over the course of a day (Read: Control weather, 3rd level spell) has a good chance of straight up knocking you unconscious or killing you.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 02:56
|
|
|
AlphaDog posted:If they meant that levels 1 through 3/4 were for inexperienced characters, then I misunderstood what the "beginner levels" thing was about. I thought it was for players learning the game rather than characters learning their trade. 3rd Edition had Apprentice/level-0 rules, but mostly because it was a way for people to start out as a "level 1 multiclass", since multiclassing was 3rd Edition's big thing. 4th Edition also had level-0 rules, and as far as I can tell it was a storytelling device: if you wanted to flesh out the period where heroes are still teenage apprentices, you can play with those. I don't know if 5th Edition's level 1-3 range was supposed to be a "for beginner players" behind the scenes, since those in-book descriptions are always walking on eggshells, but if I had to guess there's probably also an element of "the early levels should be lethal" as a sop to OSR D&D. But that in itself is sort of misleading because OSR D&D already calls the level 1 Fighter a "Veteran", so interpreting low-level dungeon crawls as character meat grinders are really a depiction of what the characters practically are rather than what they diegetically are.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 03:48
|
|
|
What's weirder is that the characters aren't across-the-board useless, they're just made of tissue paper. I spent part of this afternoon helping the girlfriend roll her first D&D character (gnome druid), and realized that she could one-shot a close of herself with a single melee attack that didn't even roll max damage, let alone crit. It's an artifact of the way the game linearly scales up HP, but gives extra damage in fits and bursts.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 03:53
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:But that in itself is sort of misleading because OSR D&D already calls the level 1 Fighter a "Veteran", so interpreting low-level dungeon crawls as character meat grinders are really a depiction of what the characters practically are rather than what they diegetically are.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 04:01
|
|
|
kingcobweb posted:What's weirder is that the characters aren't across-the-board useless, they're just made of tissue paper. I spent part of this afternoon helping the girlfriend roll her first D&D character (gnome druid), and realized that she could one-shot a close of herself with a single melee attack that didn't even roll max damage, let alone crit. That's not really a problem with the level scaling of the game, per se. It's more that characters are designed for fighting MM monsters, not each other. They just both happen to use the same terms like "hit points" and "damage" for both monsters and players, for simplicity's sake.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 04:16
|
|
|
Fuschia tude posted:That's not really a problem with the level scaling of the game, per se. It's more that characters are designed for fighting MM monsters, not each other. They just both happen to use the same terms like "hit points" and "damage" for both monsters and players, for simplicity's sake. Yes, but monsters get iterative attacks faster than players do. My level 1 paladin spend more rounds on the round dying than he did on his feet. If one player goes down then you've got two players who aren't contributing to downing the monsters next round, the guy being brought back to his feet, and the guy healing him. Of course once you hit level 4 or 5 you've got enough health to give yourself a buffer against one single round of bad luck.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 06:01
|
|
|
bewilderment posted:Assuming things get to level 5, they can enjoy the potency of Mr Bones the (Human) skeleton Necromancer Wizard, who has at least four skeletons always following around, a Familiar that's a (skeleton) hawk, and a Phantom (Skeleton) Steed. Not even going to take Mounted Combat as a feat, since it's not like I'm going to be meleeing from up there much. Just gonna be a skeleton general with my skelebros. This is exactly why the dracolich worshiping necromancer cult which serves as an Aztec analogue in my Colombian contact South America homebrew are such a major military and industrial power.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 18:18
|
|
|
I run a series of one-shots for some friends on Roll20 as a fun weeknight activity. The hook is basically that they're a detective agency, so they get these crazy cases. I've decided the skeleton economy is happening this week. Major port town has a skeleton economy. Normally undead workers are skeleton only, as to not alarm townsfolk seeing their dead relatives working around town. Townspeople agree to this as the skeletons still earn an income for their families. A new company has started up on the docks to compete with the existing 2 shipping companies. I think the new shipping company is having a hard time sourcing undead, so they've hired some unsavory sorts to "make" people dead. They will have to figure out what's happening and put a stop to it. "A young girl walks in the door, holding the hand of a very docile zombie." New company let a zombie escape before they managed to boil the flesh off. Should be a fun time. Any fun suggestions for encounters (4x7th level)?
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 19:12
|
|
|
A group of angry ghosts who age one of your party by 70 years, leaving them an old age pensioner who can't be turned back because nobody knows greater restoration.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 19:29
|
|
|
A ghost or shaman puts a curse on a party member such that if that party member dies the entire rest of the party dies. Preferably the curse is put on a party member someone or some group already really wants to kill.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 19:35
|
|
|
Soylent Pudding posted:A ghost or shaman puts a curse on a party member such that if that party member dies the entire rest of the party dies. Preferably the curse is put on a party member someone or some group already really wants to kill. Been watching LARPs have we? (It's an interesting plot point, mind)
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 19:36
|
|
|
A dingy basement full of assorted fungi and oozes that have been feeding on the discarded rotten flesh, that they can fall into through a rotten/half-eaten wooden floor.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 19:44
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:Been watching LARPs have we? What's LARPs? No, it's something we came up with after one player never really seemed to learn and the rest of the party just kept letting him kill off his characters stupidly.] e: To add more ideas: There are a series of events where skeletons seem to regain memories and leave their jobs to try and continue their previous life. The origin is that a popular new recreational drug seems to have adverse effects with the reanimation process. Soylent Pudding fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Nov 1, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 20:28
|
|
|
Someone importing prisoners of war to be liquidated into necromantic assets. Join/fight the military industrial complex.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 20:31
|
|
|
goatface posted:A dingy basement full of assorted fungi and oozes that have been feeding on the discarded rotten flesh But enough about Next.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 20:32
|
|
|
Soylent Pudding posted:What's LARPs? No, it's something we came up with after one player never really seemed to learn and the rest of the party just kept letting him kill off his characters stupidly.] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIvyc3xsFUI Geek and Sundry show about... LARPing. The exact situation you describe is the plot of the current season.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 20:32
|
|
|
Ah, I guess one of the gms who helped come up with that idea must have been watching it. Is the show worth a watch?
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 20:35
|
|
|
A gang of rowdy teens have trained their dogs to steal the leg bones from skeletons and make them fall over! The players have to track them down and give them a convincing talk about civic pride and social responsibility.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 20:36
|
|
|
Soylent Pudding posted:Ah, I guess one of the gms who helped come up with that idea must have been watching it. Is the show worth a watch? It's entertaining, short, and free. I'd say it's worth a shot. It's not outstanding work, but it's better than a lot of youtube shows, and hell, better than a large amount of commercial (reality) TV content at the moment.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 20:40
|
|
|
Gerdalti posted:Should be a fun time. Any fun suggestions for encounters (4x7th level)? Botched ritual leads to a skeleton that's demonically possessed instead of merely reanimated. Maybe turns it into some kinda flaming skeleton, since those are cool.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 20:55
|
|
|
goatface posted:A gang of rowdy teens have trained their dogs to steal the leg bones from skeletons and make them fall over! The players have to track them down and give them a convincing talk about civic pride and social responsibility. Of course, a normal dog can't pull the bones out of a skeleton, these teens have had help! Who has given them the magic spells to make their dogs potent anti-skeleton weapons? Is it the local wizardry college, who's first year are trying to win the affections of the attractive girl-teen? Cleric Whatsisface who is disgusted by these undead abominations in his nice town? The union of dockworkers and draymen from the next town over, who are trying to make the industry look bad? Hahaha, nope. It's the local golemancer who's collecting the long bones for materials he can use building a huge bone golem to smash in the mayor's house because he made him pay business rates on his street-frontal hobby workshop. It's only 60% finished, but 160% angry!
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 21:05
|
|
|
Of course, the Mayor is enforcing business rates on as much property as possible because the town is suffering from reduced coffers. Skeleton workers are efficient, don't get paid, and don't drive spending in the local economy. There used to a be a steady income of people paying bail to get their unskilled labourers out of jail the morning after, and it's all been cut off. The local inns, especially the downmarket ones, are suffering and the owners are more willing to take on the dodgy business offers that their clientèle invent to pass the time and make some money. Petty crime is up, as is smuggling, and illegal drugs are becoming rife among the young and unemployed. Can your players convince the local business owners that skeletons are a taxable asset that should be treated as property rather than hired labour, or will your court case come up short as their lawyers summon the dread god Haramakati to prove that those souls are on short term contractual lease and not freehold?
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 21:19
|
|
|
Every skeleton is governed by the Three Laws of Skeletonics: 1) A skeleton may not injure a human or demihuman; nor, through inaction, allow a human or demihuman to come to harm. 2) A skeleton must obey any order given to it by humans or demihumans, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law. 3) A skeleton must protect its own existence, so long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws. How do you proceed, then, when there is a murder...and the only suspect is a skeleton?
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 22:47
|
|
|
Really Pants posted:Every skeleton is governed by the Three Laws of Skeletonics: Enlist the local SkeleSmith by the name of William. You might have heard of him... they call him... Bill Smith Spiteski fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Nov 1, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 22:51
|
|
|
The notebook of Player McCharacter posted:Lieutenant Hern said: "Everyone knows that skeletons, being fuelled by evil, are notoriously racist."
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 22:57
|
|
|
A necromancer has come up with a breakthrough in skeleton animation technology, and is preparing to announce it in a couple days. He hires the adventurers to set up security for his presentation. The next day, the necromancer is found murdered, and his research lab burgled. A fragmentary mention of creating a prototype skeleton remains amid the shreds of his notes. Can the PCs track down the murderer? And will they be able to find the proto-skeleton, who may be even closer than they can possible imagine?
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 23:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 02:07 |
|
|
Tired of being fleshless, a skeleton has broken free of his indoctrination and has left a handful of splattered bodies across town. Can the party stop him before he finds someone fat enough to successfully climb inside?
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2015 23:12
|
|