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Captain Fargle posted:Okay question for you folks. Do you have a problem with the fact that the show tackled this issue at all or the fact that they didn't handle it better?. It's possible to write a story about cultural differences and immigration with tact and nuance. Just gonna let those last couple of words stand there in the Doctor Who thread on their own for a minute
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Nov 1, 2015 19:44
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Ahahahaha what the gently caress was that. This was as bizarre and clumsy as Kill The Moon, and it was awesome for it. Yes, the subtext was on the nose and its intent could easily be garbled into something very questionable, but goddammit that was entertaining. I love you, Peter Harness. You wonderful hack.
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Nov 1, 2015 19:45
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I haven't had a chance to rewatch the episode to check for myself, but at any point do we see any of the ZISIS imagery (logos/banners etc) when Zlara and her Z-Men are in their Z-Base? I keep coming back to exactly in what way "Inversion" is going to be used in the second part, and hoping and praying that it will be something compelling. As for the "inside-out gas", I'm assuming that people are going to believe that it's inside the box the Doctor left with Osgood and Ozgood and when it finally opens it'll be something completely different (a device that traps Zygons in human form or something, I don't know) and the Doctor will say,"That gas? Oh I threw that into the sun centuries ago!" and that'll be the last we ever hear of it.... maybe he'll say that Harry pushed the button because he didn't want it to ever be used either  Captain Fargle posted:Okay question for you folks. Do you have a problem with the fact that the show tackled this issue at all or the fact that they didn't handle it better?. That they didn't handle it better. As I've tried to stress multiple times, the ISIS imagery is troubling/problematic/unsettling/disappointing but it is only so prevalent an issue (for me at least) because the structure of the episode, the characterization and dialogue etc were so subpar. You can forgive a lot when a story is good, but the problems become far more apparent when the story is not. And as I and others have stated a few times now, even if part 2 is exceptionally good it is going to be a huge uphill climb to in any way rehabilitate part one. Even with the ISIS imagery potentially recontextualized there are still all the structural/character/dialogue problems inherent in part one. Just like with The End of Time 2-parter.
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Nov 1, 2015 21:38
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This thread needs cheering up. So what else has been going on? Well, "The Underwater Menace" was finally released on DVD in the UK. However, the reconstructions for episodes 1 & 4 are apparently below the usual standards. Just the still images from the telesnaps with the soundtrack playing over them. No opening or closing credits, as I'm led to believe, doing so would have meant the BBC would then have to pay to have them submitted for a ratings classification. Well, guess who's not happy about this? Ian Levine posted:I AM ABSOLUTELY APPALLED, ANGRY, AND FURIOUS. Well, that's not the end of it. Several people came to John Kelly's defense, saying that he offered to do the recons differently, for the same amount of money, but the BBCWW do it as instructed. So Ian gave his usual "apology": quote:Okay I apologise for what I said about John Kelly, but he DID do a really lovely lazy sloppy job on Web Of Fear part three. And Adam’s animation is SOOO much better. It brought up all my inner rage about Shada all over again, after I spent forty one thousand pounds making a wonderful professional and COMPLETE version. Now keep in mind, he was not commissioned by the BBC to do an animated version of "Shada". He did that all on his own, then presented it to them, expecting them to be grateful that he did, and to release on the DVD. Never mind that he never got permission from the actors involved to use their likenesses, or permission from the Adams estate to do this. He just assumed that since he's IAN LEVINE, then everything would be taken care of for him. And now he's sworn yet another vendetta: quote:I want to know the name of the cretin at BBC Worldwide who insisted that the recons have no opening and closing credits, no composites, no zooms, no shots from the other episodes and no censor clips. In other words the person who basically said MAKE IT sh*t. One way or another I will find out and make it my business to publicly demand this lazy sloppy selfish dipshit gets fired. So basically he's looking to make someone's life a living hell because some recons aren't up to HIS standard.
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Nov 1, 2015 22:00
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You know, I am very happy that no matter how bad this thread has ever or could ever be We will never be Ian. Happy and almost sad- it's like an unreachable ideal in lovely fanboy bullshit.
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Nov 1, 2015 22:05
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And More posted:It seems to me like that would be pretty cowardly Disagree. You can have extremely biting satire and social commentary that doesn't Name Names (as it were). I say again: what do you actually gain from using the imagery? Are you trying to tell a story about how ISIS is actually bad? Because stop the presses, that's a fresh take! NowonSA posted:part of the Zygon way of life that the Doctor just ignored. The Doctor didn't have anything to do with the content of the treaty though?
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Nov 1, 2015 22:07
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Davros1 posted:So basically he's looking to make someone's life a living hell because some recons aren't up to HIS standard. He's a complete turd but lovely recons with no opening or closing credits are a gamebreaker for me when it comes to buying the DVD. If they're worse than the LC ones then what's the point?
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Nov 1, 2015 22:11
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MrL_JaKiri posted:He's a complete turd but lovely recons with no opening or closing credits are a gamebreaker for me when it comes to buying the DVD. If they're worse than the LC ones then what's the point? Yes, and you have a completely rational response. You don't want to buy it because you don't like the recons. That's absolutely your choice as a consumer. What I don't see you doing is declaring a attack on the guy who commissioned them. Because again, you're a rational human being.
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Nov 1, 2015 22:20
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The ISIS stuff has been covered pretty comprehensively, but how about the other "hmmm this is a bit raw" moment right at the end? I totally get that this episode was written and produced well before the investigation was completed, but after watching last week's detailed report of the shooting down of flight MH17 (including the exact order in which the crew were torn apart by pellets from the missile warhead) I found it hard to be entertained by the last couple of minutes. I know I'm probably just being butthurt and over-sensitive; I guess it wouldn't have stood out as much if it hadn't come right at the end of an episode that was already filled with troubling content. Also! Did Missy know about Davros' plan to create a Time Lord / Dalek hybrid? Given the number of OMG HYBRID references we've had and her "clever idea" line, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a Missy-initiated hybrid at some point. She'd be able to give up some of her regeneration energy too.
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Nov 1, 2015 22:20
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AlMac posted:She'd be able to give up some of her regeneration energy too. Time Lords: You can't just keep giving it out like this, it's a finite resource! You'll use up all your lives and we're not going to give you any more! Master: Nah it's cool I'll just keep being alive/regenerating anyway.
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Nov 1, 2015 22:26
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Jerusalem posted:Time Lords: You can't just keep giving it out like this, it's a finite resource! You'll use up all your lives and we're not going to give you any more! Okay, cutting to the chase. Not dead. Back. Big surprise. Never mind.
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Nov 1, 2015 22:29
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AlMac posted:The ISIS stuff has been covered pretty comprehensively, but how about the other "hmmm this is a bit raw" moment right at the end? I totally get that this episode was written and produced well before the investigation was completed, but after watching last week's detailed report of the shooting down of flight MH17 (including the exact order in which the crew were torn apart by pellets from the missile warhead) I found it hard to be entertained by the last couple of minutes. I know I'm probably just being butthurt and over-sensitive; I guess it wouldn't have stood out as much if it hadn't come right at the end of an episode that was already filled with troubling content. I noticed that too. It was perhaps a bit insensitive but I don't believe they intended to draw that parallel at all.
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Nov 1, 2015 22:30
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AlMac posted:Okay, cutting to the chase. Not dead. Back. Big surprise. Never mind. Peri: Wait didn't you die? Master: Nope! 
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Nov 1, 2015 22:33
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Carbon dioxide posted:I noticed that too. It was perhaps a bit insensitive but I don't believe they intended to draw that parallel at all. Oh no, I don't think it was deliberate at all. I didn't mean to imply that it was an actual reference to the real event, just that it was an extra little piece of accidental but poorly-timed and irritating insensitivity.
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Nov 1, 2015 22:36
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Eiba posted:Another interesting point that I just realized... There were no major male characters in that whole episode besides the Doctor. And that dude who wouldn't shoot the obvious Zygon, I guess, but he was kind of minor. Turns out all the women are Zygons and Harness is actually an anti feminist. Part 2 is a thinly veiled pro-MRA episode.  Sober posted:Do Zygons traditionally just all look the same? Cause that did not help with any point they were trying to make, good or bad. Wow, just wow. Mods, please ban this racist shitlord.
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Nov 1, 2015 22:43
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Burkion posted:We will never be Ian. I would quite like to have his record collection, though.
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Nov 1, 2015 22:44
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I didn't see the Levine post at first so I was confused why he hated Chatterton
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Nov 1, 2015 22:47
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MrL_JaKiri posted:I didn't see the Levine post at first so I was confused why he hated Chatterton Haha, I read the Levine post but my brain still immediately leaps to Chesterfield when I read "Ian". And it's true, none of us will ever be Ian 
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Nov 1, 2015 22:49
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Wheat Loaf posted:I would quite like to have his record collection, though. Did he ever get anyone to give him the money to help buy that one collection? You know, the one where he flat out said that he'd be the one to choose which records the person helping him would get to keep?
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Nov 1, 2015 22:49
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I dont know what the 'intention' of the episode was, but death of the author and all that. It was racist as poo poo and it's embarrassing that the BBC aired that episode.
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Nov 1, 2015 22:49
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Disagree. You can have extremely biting satire and social commentary that doesn't Name Names (as it were). These are the bad guys. They are like ISIS. Zygons = Evil = ISIS Surprise! With a slight shift of perspective, they weren't the bad guys! Zygons != Evil But wait, where does that leave ISIS? Perhaps I should think about things from other peoples point of view and consider their values and background rather than simply writing them off as evil! To reemphasize, that's the ideal scenario. I don't know if they'll successfully pull it off. And honestly, even if they do, I don't know that it makes up for the issues you've brought up about the negative impact of bringing up real, painful current things. But I'm pretty sure that's why they're using ISIS imagery.
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Nov 1, 2015 23:04
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Davros1 posted:Did he ever get anyone to give him the money to help buy that one collection? You know, the one where he flat out said that he'd be the one to choose which records the person helping him would get to keep? Actually, come to think of it, I read this pretty good book about Northern soul a while back (granted, it's from 2010, so it might not be entirely up to date) and I have a bit of a notion that Levine might have had to sell most of his records when that enterprise he was running in the late 1980s where he got old Motown singers into the studio fell apart and bankrupted his production company. Pretty sure he does still have his collection of every single DC comic ever published, though.
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Nov 1, 2015 23:10
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Wheat Loaf posted:Actually, come to think of it, I read this pretty good book about Northern soul a while back (granted, it's from 2010, so it might not be entirely up to date) and I have a bit of a notion that Levine might have had to sell most of his records when that enterprise he was running in the late 1980s where he got old Motown singers into the studio fell apart and bankrupted his production company. Can't find it now, but found an old forum awhile where he had posted trying to find boys for his boy band project. I think they were going to be called something like "Ju5tice".
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Nov 1, 2015 23:14
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MrL_JaKiri posted:The Doctor didn't have anything to do with the content of the treaty though? Ah, fair point. I was more thinking about how he made them all forget whether they're human or Zygon, and it's reasonable to assume that if they're integrating Zygons into human society they'd have to do so in human (or animal) form. The best case is that he saw the treaty ordered them to permanently adopt one form and said "Yep, no problems there."
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Nov 1, 2015 23:33
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Davros1 posted:Can't find it now, but found an old forum awhile where he had posted trying to find boys for his boy band project. I think they were going to be called something like "Ju5tice". I understand he's not doing so well at the moment - had a pretty bad stroke last year that he's still recovering from, which is a nasty thing to happen to anybody.
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Nov 1, 2015 23:36
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Wheat Loaf posted:I understand he's not doing so well at the moment - had a pretty bad stroke last year that he's still recovering from, which is a nasty thing to happen to anybody. Which makes it all the more sad that he gets so worked up over anything so inconsequential as recons.
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Nov 1, 2015 23:39
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CobiWann posted:Halloween night. Scariest Doctor Who episode?
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Nov 2, 2015 00:17
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I flatly refuse to believe that Harry Sullivan would make a chemical weapon. Don't care. Wasn't him. I'm pretty disappointed they undid the peace treaty at all because I really liked that resolution to the Zygon thing in Day of the Doctor. Next week has a lot to make up for.
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Nov 2, 2015 00:18
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evenworse username posted:I flatly refuse to believe that Harry Sullivan would make a chemical weapon. Don't care. Wasn't him. The Inversion turns out to be that the doctor is in an Inferno-esque alternate reality!
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Nov 2, 2015 00:28
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Why's is this year's doctor's outfit based on "Dad who's too cheap to bump up the thermostat a couple degrees"? Nobody's going to be dressing up as that crap for Halloween or whatever. Note: I am in not way advocating cosplay as a legitimate lifestyle.
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Nov 2, 2015 00:41
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Jerusalem posted:The Inversion turns out to be that the doctor is in an Inferno-esque alternate reality! No Just to mention something else that threw me about this episode, I was surprised at how violent it was. Violence in Doctor Who can be gruesome, but it also tends to be disconnected from reality. By trying to put things in a closer to real world context, it made the very high body count in this episode even worse for me. Is this the story with the most on-screen-character deaths? (Obviously not all the deaths are on screen, I mean that characters we see on screen got massacred this time around.)
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Nov 2, 2015 00:42
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"It's a nerve gas, unravels their DNA, basically turns them inside out." Which one is it? I know, kids show and all, but after the nonsense in Kill The Moon I'm less enclined to give Harness a pass on it. On the plus side Capaldi seemed to realise how terrible everything was and stopped giving a poo poo. He seemed to be phoning it in through the second half. I hope they've put Mathieson's episode on after the mess I fully expect Harness to poo poo out next week so it can wash away the taste.
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Nov 2, 2015 00:46
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SpaceCommie posted:I hope they've put Mathieson's episode on after the mess I fully expect Harness to poo poo out next week so it can wash away the taste. His episode has already been on, it was "The Girl Who Died"
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Nov 2, 2015 00:53
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Holy poo poo that was bad and I pretty much called the stupid Osgood plot. Also Osgood is terrible and modern UNIT is just wretched. The Brig would be ashamed.
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Nov 2, 2015 02:12
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I thought this was quite good and I'm a bit boggled at how much of a venomous reception it's getting here.
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Nov 2, 2015 02:29
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I'm going to watch the next one but this really fucks with a GREAT episode in a way I do not like, for a very generic and lame alien invasion.SpaceCommie posted:On the plus side Capaldi seemed to realise how terrible everything was and stopped giving a poo poo. He seemed to be phoning it in through the second half. Yeah, he seemed to be really unemotional throughout. However I do find it amusing after last season's I HATE SOLDIERS RAAAR arcs he's now like "ok you guys do whatever, if you kill aliens just try not to kill too many"
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Nov 2, 2015 02:29
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Mixed feelings here. I like there was a reason both in (poncing about in the plane) and out (else no cliffhanger) of universe that the Doctor didn't just take the Tardis to Madeupistan. Maybe CyberBrig will stop the missile then stop Zlara with five rounds, rapid. Having memory wiping tech, I see little reason why UNIT couldn't have drafted from the regular military. The Doctor shoulda gotten Kate something that goes DING, then she'd have been safe.
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Nov 2, 2015 02:39
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I cannot believe this got on the air as is, and its sad to think this is probably a revised script. The issues have already been covered, but it would have been softened if we had scene Zygons being terrorized by their own more. Like have some Zygons in UNIT being "there is a civil war between us and we're losing". But yea the ISIS fear and Immigrant worry parts were upsetting to watch. Evil Clara was good, and I suspected she was evil as soon as she put her hair in a pony tale, but was not 100% because she was still acting like Clara. I liked how Osgood was less "doctor sempai!" and more serious, though still being a fangirl with the 6th doctor level question marks. But yea, UNIT's soldiers were pretty terrible there. I guess they can only take washouts at this point? The Squadleader should have gone alone, and told the rest of the squad to stay behind but if he isn't out in 5 minutes storm the building. But nope, its my sad mom, everyone just go into their deaths. Though The Doctor Motivated by the death/capture/injury or any other kind of harm coming to a companion is always awesome and scary. And to think this is a direct sequel to the Day of the Doctor, which is so good. Speaking of that, something that bugs me is how the Time Lords are shown to be completely chumped by the Daleks constantly in the Time War. You'd think a race that is able to literally take a super nova, freeze it in time, and build a space ship that can carry it around would get owned by some mutants in pepper pots. You'd think even their basic, infantry weapons, which would be need to be powerful enough to kill their own would have no issues taking out Daleks. I guess the fact that billions and billions of Daleks were attacking would have rendered the vast technological advantaged the Time Lords had moot. That or the hubris of their leaders lead to a stagnation that enabled the Daleks and others to become powerful enough to be a threat.
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Nov 2, 2015 02:44
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I think saying Capaldi's phoning it in is projecting. He was fine in this, his style just seems to be playing the Doctor differently to match the tone of the story. It's been fairly evident this season especially. Dude was pulling off the "Doctor hangs around quietly on the sidelines" mode that's sadly become rare in the new series. He reminded me a lot of Hincliffe Baker in this one. Loved "They'll think you're trying to pinch their benefits" and his cheery "Oh, hello!" when that Zygon in the tunnel showed up. I will reserve judgment on this episode's politics until next week, i want to see if it sticks the landing. But i quite like what they appear to be trying to do here. I am hoping that the standardness of this invasion plot is the point. It was better than UtL/BtF's standard base under siege at any rate. Don't know why the electrified hair remains freaked me out so much. That's a nice slice of Doctor Who "kid-friendly death with nonetheless horrifying implications"
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Nov 2, 2015 02:45
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twistedmentat posted:And to think this is a direct sequel to the Day of the Doctor, which is so good. Speaking of that, something that bugs me is how the Time Lords are shown to be completely chumped by the Daleks constantly in the Time War. You'd think a race that is able to literally take a super nova, freeze it in time, and build a space ship that can carry it around would get owned by some mutants in pepper pots. You'd think even their basic, infantry weapons, which would be need to be powerful enough to kill their own would have no issues taking out Daleks. I guess the fact that billions and billions of Daleks were attacking would have rendered the vast technological advantaged the Time Lords had moot. That or the hubris of their leaders lead to a stagnation that enabled the Daleks and others to become powerful enough to be a threat. The idea was that the Daleks got to the same tech level.
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