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I think the ROC has to claim all the territory the PRC claims or administers, otherwise Taiwan goes from a "rouge province" of China to its own independent country, and then World War III starts.
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Nov 2, 2015 03:02
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Does the PRC seriously claim the entirety of Mongolia?
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Nov 2, 2015 03:04
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Lord Wexia posted:I know pretty much nothing of Chinese politics. The claims are the claims made by nationalist/republican China as of like 1920-1940 or so, and with very little exception have never been rescinded (because to do so would offend the PRC). For instance, Mongolia was part of the Chinese empire under the Qing dynasty until 1911 (the Qing dynasty collapsed in 1912).
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Nov 2, 2015 03:08
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The RoC regarded themselves as the successor state to the Qing Empire, and therefore maintained all claims of that state. I'm not sure if that changed recently wrt Mongolia.
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Nov 2, 2015 03:08
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Ammat The Ankh posted:I think the ROC has to claim all the territory the PRC claims or administers, otherwise Taiwan goes from a "rouge province" of China to its own independent country, and then World War III starts. I still don't understand why this is the case. Obviously the PRC is never going to give up on reclaiming Taiwan, but why would dropping those claims interfere with that?
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Nov 2, 2015 03:10
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Ammat The Ankh posted:I think the ROC has to claim all the territory the PRC claims or administers, otherwise Taiwan goes from a "rouge province" of China to its own independent country, and then World War III starts. The mainland is actually the rouge province of the ROC
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Nov 2, 2015 03:10
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Kavak posted:I still don't understand why this is the case. Obviously the PRC is never going to give up on reclaiming Taiwan, but why would dropping those claims interfere with that? In one case, you have an internal dispute between two governments over control over the same country. In the other case, you have a country trying to claim total autonomy from the other country.
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Nov 2, 2015 03:15
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Ammat The Ankh posted:"rouge province" Seriously, how is this still happening. 
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Nov 2, 2015 03:16
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Kavak posted:I still don't understand why this is the case. Obviously the PRC is never going to give up on reclaiming Taiwan, but why would dropping those claims interfere with that? If the ROC (Taiwan) does the sensible thing and drops claim to anywhere but territory they already control, this will piss off the mainland PRC. This is because they really don't like the idea of any part of what they consider to be "China" breaking off and finally saying "ok we're not China, we're Taiwan". Doing so would probably end all sorts of things like tourism between the two places (which are done under pretenses of being internal travel using a special passport, not international), trade relations, and so on. All of this already been threatened by the PRC to the ROC if they drop their claims. I mean it's the smart thing to do, but it can't be done just yet.
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Nov 2, 2015 03:18
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PittTheElder posted:Seriously, how is this still happening. Mainland china is commonly known as red china so... 
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Nov 2, 2015 03:18
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Even the ROC just dropping its claim of Mongolia would be considered provocative. So the ROC hasn't. The PROC and Mongolia have normal diplomatic relations. Having the ROC drop its claim on Mongolia could be seen as a step towards normalizing relations between Taiwan and Mongolia... which is a big no-no.
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Nov 2, 2015 03:22
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Lord Wexia posted:I know pretty much nothing of Chinese politics. Chinese politics is complicated, so this is a general outline. The Republic of China (ROC) was established in 1912, sort-of replacing the previous sovereignty of Qing dynasty China. That area more-or-less encompassed everything on that map. Mongolia becomes a quasi-independent state in 1924, after several years of Russo-Chinese fighting and spillover from the Russian Civil War. The orange bit on the map is Tuva, which became independent around the same time, for the same reasons, but is now a part of Russia. The ROC is an unstable state, and most of the country is controlled by warlords. In 1927, the Chinese Communists from the ROC government, prompting them to go off into the countryside to make their own base of power. This is the Communist Party that controls China today. A whole lot of poo poo happens. Warlords fight warlords, as well as the ROC. Japan invades China twice, once during WWII. Chinese Communists grow in power throughout this time, and get the support of the Soviets. After WWII ends, the Chinese Civil War continues between the ROC and the Communists, until 1949, when the last ROC government is forced to move to Taiwan. The Chinese mainland becomes the People's Republic of China (PRC). The PRC doesn't have an effective way to get to Taiwan, and eventually Taiwan gets US support so the issue will never be settled by war. So the ROC technically still exists, and they still claim to be the legitimate governors of their territory, which naturally encompasses the ROC as it existed in 1912.
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Nov 2, 2015 03:25
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Kavak posted:I still don't understand why this is the case. Obviously the PRC is never going to give up on reclaiming Taiwan, but why would dropping those claims interfere with that? because both the ROC and the PRC claim to be the legitimate governments of the same country. dropping the claims would basically mean Taiwan declaring itself a separate, new country, and PRC china has a 30 foot pole up it's rear end about territorial integrity because of what is essentially 19th Century style hypernationalism grounded in a massive inferiority complex
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Nov 2, 2015 03:33
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Trabisnikof posted:Mainland china is commonly known as red china so... Hey buddy, I already made that joke!
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Nov 2, 2015 03:34
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Because of Beijing's "One China" thing and its claim of Taiwan, Chiang Kai-shek (aka Mao's mortal enemy and Jeb Bush's spirit animal) is actually enjoying a slight rehabilitation in the mainland. On the surface it's strange, but it makes sense since PROC considers itself the legitimate successor state to the ROC and Chiang was fanatically against Taiwanese independence. I'm kind of surprised that the English language Wikipedia finally decided to call the "Republic of China" article "Taiwan".
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Nov 2, 2015 03:35
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icantfindaname posted:because both the ROC and the PRC claim to be the legitimate governments of the same country. dropping the claims would basically mean Taiwan declaring itself a separate, new country, and PRC china has a 30 foot pole up it's rear end about territorial integrity because of what is essentially 19th Century style hypernationalism grounded in a massive inferiority complex Nooow I get it. Yeah, the PRC does not like its citizens deciding they aren't Chinese.
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Nov 2, 2015 03:47
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I'd like to see Taiwan declare independence because it basically forces China to either back down or lose an incredible amount of face failing to invade Taiwan.
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Nov 2, 2015 03:49
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Ironically dropping your cores in other nations territory was added to EU4 as a way to make other people less likely to hate your guts.
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Nov 2, 2015 03:57
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Speaking of  ...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m91zBt94Ll0 After watching that, I may not have learned any new details about the new five-year plan, but I sure as hell know there is one.
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Nov 2, 2015 05:05
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Fojar38 posted:I'd like to see Taiwan declare independence because it basically forces China to either back down or lose an incredible amount of face failing to invade Taiwan. This is one of those fascinating hypotheticals where I'm really not sure what would happen. Like, I'm pretty sure I've got Korea down pat (China stands aside, Seoul gets hammered, US/ROK forces quickly defeat NK) but I have no loving idea whether China would really go to war to seize Taiwan, and whether the US would really go to war to stop it.
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Nov 2, 2015 07:52
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China's very proud of their No First Use policy on nuclear weapons so the US military is free to unleash its battle lust for a stand-up conventional uniformed war without fear of nuclear holocaust.
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Nov 2, 2015 08:15
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Taiwan also seems like an interesting locale for a fracas. Once you get out of the coastal plains it's all mountains and temperate rainforests. Not fun. Course it doesn't matter since China probably wouldn't have the sea and airlift capability to make it happen but whatevs.
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Nov 2, 2015 08:39
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Frostwerks posted:Taiwan also seems like an interesting locale for a fracas. Once you get out of the coastal plains it's all mountains and temperate rainforests. Not fun. Course it doesn't matter since China probably wouldn't have the sea and airlift capability to make it happen but whatevs.
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Nov 2, 2015 13:17
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The way I see it: if Taiwan just did it now, the PRC would unleash economic warfare as much as they could. They'd never go to an invasion unless they could be 100% certain the USA would stand aside. Then, however, it would be all out. Even if they had to drench every inch of the island in blood, they'd do it. No nukes, but every other means at their disposal. China just has too much of its national dignity tied up in the idea of Taiwan being Chinese.
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Nov 2, 2015 14:29
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Lord Wexia posted:I know pretty much nothing of Chinese politics. Yes. The ROC is what remains of nationalist China, which was overthrown in Mao's revolution. It maintained control over Taiwan, and only over Taiwan, but retained its claim to be the legitimate Chinese government. This is clearly laughable, but it took a while for the PRC's claims to be recognized, because scary communists. The web of international recognition is still pretty tangled, as for a while (and possibly still) the PRC was very prickly about maintaining diplomatic relations with a nation that also had relations with the ROC.
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Nov 2, 2015 16:51
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Quorum posted:The web of international recognition is still pretty tangled, as for a while (and possibly still) the PRC was very prickly about maintaining diplomatic relations with a nation that also had relations with the ROC.
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Nov 2, 2015 17:14
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The Holy See is among the more significant states that still officially recognizes the ROC as the legitimate Chinese government. When John Paul II died, Taiwan's president (who wasn't KMT and leaned towards independence) attended the funeral in Vatican City in the capacity of the President of China. (He was also allegedly corrupt, but that's kind of another story.) Since then Taiwan has elected a mainland-friendly KMT president. But it looks like the next election in January will swing back in favor of the anti-mainland DPP/Greens. It seems like Pope Francis is warming up to recognizing Beijing. And that'll be another nation off of the ROC's list of formal diplomatic relations. might as well link to the map Echo Chamber fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Nov 2, 2015 |
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Nov 2, 2015 17:17
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The PRC has its own state-sponsored "Catholic Church" that appoints its own priests and bishops and rejects the authority of the Pope. That's probably a sore point in Vatican-PRC relations.
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Nov 2, 2015 17:30
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tbf the UK does that too, but the Vatican seems to have got over it since they started allowing the Roman church to operate too.
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Nov 2, 2015 17:33
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Pakled posted:The PRC has its own state-sponsored "Catholic Church" that appoints its own priests and bishops and rejects the authority of the Pope. That's probably a sore point in Vatican-PRC relations. I don't think they 'get' the Catholic Church.
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Nov 2, 2015 18:47
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Pakled posted:The PRC has its own state-sponsored "Catholic Church" that appoints its own priests and bishops and rejects the authority of the Pope. That's probably a sore point in Vatican-PRC relations. Didn't France do this at some point?
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Nov 2, 2015 18:51
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North Korea does/did as well.
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Nov 2, 2015 19:18
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Badger of Basra posted:Didn't France do this at some point? was that the reason for his doxxing
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Nov 2, 2015 19:23
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Badger of Basra posted:Didn't France do this at some point? Yeah, there was an attempt to (essentially) nationalise the French Catholic Church in 1790. It was met with heavy resistance and Napoleon went back on it after a decade.
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Nov 2, 2015 19:25
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Kassad posted:Yeah, there was an attempt to (essentially) nationalise the French Catholic Church in 1790. It was met with heavy resistance and Napoleon went back on it after a decade. state authorities throughout the middle ages and early modern era negotiated with the Catholic Church over control of ecclesiastical appointments. by the end of the ancien regime the french catholic church was already basically a separate institution, with the french state wielding almost complete power to appoint or dismiss bishops https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallicanism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investiture_Controversy so it's actually a fairly well established precedent. the thing that china doesn't 'get' is liberalism and the concept of individual political rights icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Nov 2, 2015 |
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Nov 2, 2015 19:33
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 Iran seized over 32 tonnes of heroin in 2008 
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Nov 2, 2015 20:21
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What did they do with it? Or are they still constructing a big enough sheet of foil to burn it all?
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Nov 2, 2015 20:30
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They should just go all in and declare a Chinese Antipope.
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Nov 2, 2015 20:42
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Nov 2, 2015 20:47
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The sorry decline of British domestic manufacturing.
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Nov 2, 2015 21:24
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