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electrified hair was stuuuupid, there's no implications of something horrifying it just is complete nonsense. There is nothing in my mind that can fill in Person->????->PILE OF ZAPPY HAIR
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Nov 2, 2015 02:47
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Of course it doesn't make any sense.
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Nov 2, 2015 02:53
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Dabir posted:The idea was that the Daleks got to the same tech level. That's the only solution that made sense.
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Nov 2, 2015 02:56
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Dabir posted:The idea was that the Daleks got to the same tech level. Yeah, it does pay to remember that Davros kind of casually built a engine consisting of stolen planets and shunted it and the Daleks into a time displaced pocket universe for the express purpose of wiping out the ENTIRE actual universe. The only aspect of the Time War we ever got to see on screen was literally the last few hours of the war when all the crazy technology/tricks had been used and everything had boiled down to an infantry invasion of All that said, I do like to think (based on nothing really) that this current Dalek Empire is far less technically advanced than the ones who fought the Time War. Though relatively speaking they're still incredibly advanced in comparison to most other races, obviously.
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Nov 2, 2015 02:58
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Two things I'm taking away from that episode, having just watched it: 1) There's no way, no loving way, that Kate Lethbridge Stewart was a Zygon imposter by the end of the episode. At some suitably dramatic point next week, we'll find out it really is Kate, pretending to be a Zygon imposter. 2) They can carry on with the "Doctor Funkenstein" type running gag for quite some time as far as I'm concerned.
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Nov 2, 2015 03:37
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Wolfechu posted:Two things I'm taking away from that episode, having just watched it: It was certainly easy enough for the Queen of England  . And yeah, I love the idea that the Doctor just kicks back and riffs through time and space on a guitar when on his own  .I'm kinda hoping for a Sonic Guitar moment at some point though.
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Nov 2, 2015 03:40
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Wolfechu posted:Two things I'm taking away from that episode, having just watched it: I just think I may have realized the twist--at the end of Day of the Doctor, there were 2 Osgoods...were there still 2 Kates?
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Nov 2, 2015 04:33
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Astroman posted:I just think I may have realized the twist--at the end of Day of the Doctor, there were 2 Osgoods...were there still 2 Kates? At the end of the Zygon subplot in Day of the Doctor, there's two of everyone because none of them have any idea that if they are human or Zygon and the Doctor won't restore their memories until they come to a peace agreement. We were left to presume that once it was over the Zygons went back to being Zygons/taking on different human forms as a part of the settlement. They know they're Zygons, the humans know that they're humans, and everybody has had their own identity restored. We learn in this episode that the two Osgoods chose not to differentiate between each other after the peace settlement was reached, and the Doctor was impressed enough to offer them the "nightmare scenario" because he felt that they truly represented the best intentions of the peace treaty. Everything said suggests that the Osgoods were unique in this situation, and thus there wasn't still a second Kate or any of the other UNIT crew who were present after the treaty was signed.
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Nov 2, 2015 04:38
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Jesus, Sylvester. https://twitter.com/gates_mcfadden/status/660953083963441153/photo/1 
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Nov 2, 2015 04:48
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This ep was just incredibly stupid. Like it was a totally fine concept to run with, but between the gross political stuff and nonsensical plotting and characterization (how the gently caress is UNIT still capable of protecting anything if they're this goddamn dumb), wow I've been pretty apathetic towards the whole Capaldi run in all honesty but surely this is the absolute nadir
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Nov 2, 2015 05:07
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nah, that's still forest of the night, with kill the moon right above that.
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Nov 2, 2015 05:11
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I think the ISIS imagery firmly puts this one at the bottom of the hole because holy poo poo
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Nov 2, 2015 05:12
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Forest is the loving worst, Kill the Moon is good and Harness has come out and said it's specifically not anti-abortion, and this episode is neither good nor bad until part 2 airs. Until Part 2 airs lets all talk about audios or recons or something.
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Nov 2, 2015 05:15
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I liked this episode. They're pretty drat explicit about radicalization being our fault for the violence we've inflicted.
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Nov 2, 2015 05:20
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He can say what he likes but if you paint 'hang all blacks' on a wall you won't get away with saying that it's laundry advice.
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Nov 2, 2015 05:20
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DoctorWhat posted:Forest is the loving worst, Kill the Moon is good and Harness has come out and said it's specifically not anti-abortion, and this episode is neither good nor bad until part 2 airs. DoctorWhat, I don't think we're going to be talking about audios or recons with this hanging over our heads. So let's say worst case scenario happens next week. Would this officially be the most racist thing Doctor Who has ever done, or is Talons still the go to for that
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Nov 2, 2015 05:26
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Jerusalem posted:At the end of the Zygon subplot in Day of the Doctor, there's two of everyone because none of them have any idea that if they are human or Zygon and the Doctor won't restore their memories until they come to a peace agreement. We were left to presume that once it was over the Zygons went back to being Zygons/taking on different human forms as a part of the settlement. They know they're Zygons, the humans know that they're humans, and everybody has had their own identity restored. But there could still be two Kates. My theory is the twist will be Kate was always a Zygon, so when that one tried to convert her it imploded due to ERROR ERROR. whatsabattle posted:Jesus, Sylvester. Boy, would late 80s me be confused about THAT picture!* "Why is the Coach from the Wonder Years in a photo with Dr. Crusher and Doctor Who?" 
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Nov 2, 2015 05:34
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Talons of Weng-Chiang is a lot more racist than this episode. Like, yeah, there's definitely some weird cryptoracism going on here, but Talons straight up drops the crypto-. It's just plain racist. e: I'm not sure cryptoracism is really the right word for it, exactly. It's more like tone-deaf heavyhanded allegory. Android Blues fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Nov 2, 2015 |
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Nov 2, 2015 05:34
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Android Blues posted:Talons of Weng-Chiang is a lot more racist than this episode. Like, yeah, there's definitely some weird cryptoracism going on here, but Talons straight up drops the crypto-. It's just plain racist. Well It has that going for it at least, DoctorWhat!
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Nov 2, 2015 05:37
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DoctorWhat posted:Forest is the loving worst, Kill the Moon is good and Harness has come out and said it's specifically not anti-abortion, and this episode is neither good nor bad until part 2 airs. I don't think you can try to pass off the cat being neither alive nor dead until you open the box when we can all smell its corpse from across the room.
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Nov 2, 2015 05:38
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I mean, no we can't. We can't smell it. That's just the dumb internet thing where you always assume the worst of any creative thing. Like, is it possible that there could be a hypothetical follow-up to this episode that's grotesquely racist and islamophobic and horrendous? In some quantum circumstance, yeah, probably. And if that happens to be the circumstance we find ourselves in Saturday evening, I will eat a ban and honestly I dunno if I'll keep watching. Because that would be The Worst. I just really don't see that happening. I think Inversion is gonna flip the script.
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Nov 2, 2015 05:49
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DoctorWhat posted:I mean, no we can't. We can't smell it. That's just the dumb internet thing where you always assume the worst of any creative thing. That doesn't What Friend That doesn't change the fact that this last episode was Not Good. Now if they were meant to be seen back to back, and aired as such, then you'd have a point. More of a point. Something of one. But they weren't, and aren't. One leads into the other. The problem is that the one is just Not Good.
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Nov 2, 2015 05:55
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whatsabattle posted:Jesus, Sylvester. It was part of the plan this entire time 
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Nov 2, 2015 05:59
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There's a difference between "not good" (subjective and harmless) and "actively grotesquely islamophobic/racist/xenophobic" (much less subjective, and much more dangerous).
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Nov 2, 2015 05:59
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DoctorWhat posted:There's a difference between "not good" (subjective and harmless) and "actively grotesquely islamophobic/racist/xenophobic" (much less subjective, and much more dangerous). What, viewed in a vacuum, would you say this episode had unfortunate implications permeating its message through out the entire thing? Because while not literally racist ( though it is literally xenophobic!) the allegory is very much present to me. You know as well as the poo poo writing and character work.
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Nov 2, 2015 06:01
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DoctorWhat posted:There's a difference between "not good" (subjective and harmless) and "actively grotesquely islamophobic/racist/xenophobic" (much less subjective, and much more dangerous). Yeah, and you keep trying to dissuade everyone from their very long and well-detailed explanations as to why it's the second. The vial has cracked, the cat is very dead.
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Nov 2, 2015 06:02
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I sincerely believe that the invocations of xenophobic/rscist/islamophobic rhetoric and attitudes in Invasion are considered and intentional setups for a major reframing in Inversion with the end result being a staunchly anti-racist, anti-islamophobia, anti-xenophobia message. This is because I have faith in the core cast and crew to not pull this bullshit without subversive intent.
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Nov 2, 2015 06:06
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DoctorWhat posted:I sincerely believe that the invocations of xenophobic/rscist/islamophobic rhetoric and attitudes in Invasion are considered and intentional setups for a major reframing in Inversion with the end result being a staunchly anti-racist, anti-islamophobia, anti-xenophobia message. Excellent dodge, you have a great talent at that.
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Nov 2, 2015 06:12
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That's not a dodge. That's the position I've held from my first post about the episode, and it's the attitude I took while watching it. As I said, the whole thing was tense, both for digetic and extradigetic reasons. I spent the whole episode nervous about its politics. I'm still nervous. I have faith, enough faith to put an awful lot on the line, but execution or accident or even actual nastiness might make it that Inversion lets me down.
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Nov 2, 2015 06:15
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DoctorWhat posted:That's not a dodge. That's the position I've held from my first post about the episode, and it's the attitude I took while watching it. I'd honestly say calm down. It's not that much to get worked up over. Certainly not enough to toxx yourself over. And again, even if worst comes to worst- we still have Talons as The Racist Who.
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Nov 2, 2015 06:18
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I've never toxxed myself before, so I figured I should. And you know, it'd be chickenshit to back down now.
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Nov 2, 2015 06:19
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Burkion posted:What, viewed in a vacuum, would you say this episode had unfortunate implications permeating its message through out the entire thing? Better, it confronts those implications head on and has the Doctor, The Hero, say, "this is your goddamn fault." Radicalization happens when people are marginalized.
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Nov 2, 2015 06:45
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misadventurous posted:Of course it doesn't make any sense. Also were the Zygons immune to bullets or something?
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Nov 2, 2015 08:07
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wow. what a wonderful train-wreck! can't wait for the next one.
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Nov 2, 2015 09:11
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Rat Flavoured Rats posted:His episode has already been on, it was "The Girl Who Died" Oh ... That was not as good as I'd hoped his new episode would be. Hey ho still miles ahead of this trash, this was the first episode since Forest that's actually bored me.
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Nov 2, 2015 09:28
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I think I see what DoctorWhat is saying. You have to see the bad to truly understand the good. The problem with this episode comes from the fact that the attempts to show the bad are incredibly heavy handed. You can talk about the the politics of the episode all you want - I've seen people left and right both praise and slam this episode for its message - but to me, the medium IS the message. And politics aside, this is just a BAD episode in terms of scriptwriting. I'm a devout Christian. In America there have been several movies in recent years from Christian filmmakers and producers focusing on love and family from their perspective and definition. To me, that's all well and good and something I wish there was more of out there. I know several people in my church who love these films...but from a filmmaking perspective, they're NOT good movies. Heavy handed, bad acting, and all the narrative subtlety of a Roman Reigns promo. The core message of the movies are fine but the way the message is presented is so poorly done that only the people already in tune with the message want to see it, or are ready to mock the movie itself and miss the message. That's where I have major problems with this episode. I agree the migrant crisis is horrifying, that it's being mishandled, and groups like ISIS are in play today because of the poor decisions of the West to do a lot of carpet bombing. But the way the message is delivered, one could also take the opposite view - "I'm from Beunos Aries and I say kill them all!" If you're going to use such a sensative topic in today's media environment, the message delivery has to be clear, concise, and with very little ambiguity. I feel this episode had none of that.
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Nov 2, 2015 10:26
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Disagree. You can have extremely biting satire and social commentary that doesn't Name Names (as it were). The point they're trying to make isn't about ISIS, it's about racism and xenophobia. The reason it's connected to ISIS explicitly is because that is the main connection to current politics: Fear of immigrants, fear of terrorists. Sure, they could hide that fact, and still make a comment. In this case, though, subtlety really only serves to obfuscate the obvious parallels. CobiWann posted:I think I see what DoctorWhat is saying. You have to see the bad to truly understand the good. That really is the main flaw of the episode. The real message hasn't even been delivered, yet, and they should have made this obvious. Zygon Invasion is basically depicting every racist nightmare with little to no reflection on the part of the characters. Racist stereotypes are perpetuated, but not subverted. Our only reason to assume that this isn't actually the direction in which the next episode is headed is basically the title: The Zygon Inversion, also known as the old switcheroo. It's a bad way of structuring this two-parter. If Harness was competent, he would have managed to hint at the fact that there was something else going on. The cliffhanger shouldn't have been: "How does the Doctor escape from the evil terrorists?" It should have been: "You were wrong about the Zygon invasion, but what is actually going on?". As it is, there is no moment of doubt. And More fucked around with this message at 11:06 on Nov 2, 2015 |
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Nov 2, 2015 11:04
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I feel bad for the director of this episode, cause he did a great job with what he had, where everyone else sort of just said gently caress it
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Nov 2, 2015 11:45
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CobiWann posted:That's where I have major problems with this episode. I agree the migrant crisis is horrifying, that it's being mishandled, and groups like ISIS are in play today because of the poor decisions of the West to do a lot of carpet bombing. But the way the message is delivered, one could also take the opposite view - "I'm from Beunos Aries and I say kill them all!" If you're going to use such a sensative topic in today's media environment, the message delivery has to be clear, concise, and with very little ambiguity. We don't know what the message is because the last half is still missing. Maybe nothing changes next week, who knows, but I would wait before calling it xenophobic or racist. I'm actually looking forward to the next episode because I'm curious what is going happen.
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Nov 2, 2015 12:24
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saucerman posted:We don't know what the message is because the last half is still missing. Maybe nothing changes next week, who knows, but I would wait before calling it xenophobic or racist. Whatever happens in the second part doesnt just erase the first half by default. Even if it was revealed they're all Zygons on both sides all along, they still did those acts to other people/Zygons just for being different or holding different beliefs.
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Nov 2, 2015 12:33
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