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GreyPowerVan posted:Maybe increased separatism or spawns larger rebel stacks. What about an NI that doubles revanchism bonuses instead? Same problem of only coming into play once a country is beaten though, so maybe not much of a deterrent.
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Nov 3, 2015 13:50
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Larry Parrish posted:The only thing it deters me from is playing in North Africa really, so there's two big nations I never ever play because it's godawful spending all your ADM on conquest early game This. I have frequently conquered North Africa as everything from the Ottos, to Italians, to Scandinavians and everything in between. That I have to set up a vassal to eat through it once I have finished Admin and Influence isn't really an obstacle. It just means conquering it directly early on is a no-go unless I abuse the distant overseas coring discount.
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Nov 3, 2015 14:00
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PittTheElder posted:Can you see the decision in the list at all? That at least tells you what half of the conditions you need to be checking. But the conditions to see the decision are pretty straightforward: Be Hanoverian or Hessian primary culture, have your capital in the Westphalian region, don't be any of the other German formables, don't have custom nations on. Really you should be able to see it from the very first day you start the game. Just started a fresh game a Cologne and changed their capital to Westfalen. Doesn't load on my decision list. Tried with both normal and historical nations set. 
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Nov 3, 2015 14:15
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Wiz posted:The question you need to ask yourself is "would this be any kind of deterrence to me, as a player?". Maybe find a way to make the actual wars against them more costly, not the after war part. Give them a discipline bonus or attrition/fort defense bonus or whatever the AI and the player actually take into account. A bigger galley cost/power bonus might move it from a land war to a naval war. Right now the only thing to do with North Africa is to feed it to Aragon and then get the cores for free at Admin 10. Sadly there's no such clutch workaround for the poison cores in India and other regions. If I am the Ottomans, I ignore the penalty too because it's distant overseas and I have silly bonuses anyway. Basically, we as players sometimes get around your bandaid fix, the AI never will. What happens is that Castile simply ignores the penalty, goes to war, cores everything and then falls behind in admin tech. The good thing is, it doesn't matter that much because Castile usually has little use for admin points (they hardly ever conquer in europe where coring costs are an issue). What I am saying Wiz, you're current solution is, in my opinion, unfun and not working correctly. I am not saying I have the ultimate fix for this, but it would be cool if you could come up with a fun solution for this.
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Nov 3, 2015 15:01
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Details are escaping me but wasn't this update supposed to include a more fleshed out version of the region mechanics? I'd like to see something like that being used to push the AI away from blobbing in places it probably shouldn't blob. So Iberian nations may grab the odd Maghreb province (as actually happened) but will be a little less inclined to try and work that into a total conquest of Morocco because it's not in their native region. Not sure exactly what malus you would get to make it reasonable to not conquer much outside your region though, which kind of brings it back around to the original problem.
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Nov 3, 2015 15:13
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Maybe increased rebel support efficiency if it's your own culture group's rebels, and incentivizing the AI to use that? I know if they don't have a huge foothold there yet, when I support rebels in North Africa they often do pretty well. And/or make the provinces never tick down autonomy on their own? And maybe even increased unrest for lowering it. I guess that's not so useful for North Africa since it's overseas anyway, but it might be for other places.
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Nov 3, 2015 15:14
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Maybe armies fighting distant overseas should get some negative modifiers so it's harder for people to just stomp them? Or the increased coring cost could be replaced with large bonus' to fighting in their own culture provinces, making invading them difficult but them weaker at invading/better at reclaiming lost provinces?
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Nov 3, 2015 15:27
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The absolute worst is when North African nations are successful and start expanding overseas and spreading their toxic cores to other places. In my Britain game atm Tunis has been very successful and taken Corsica/Sardinia, Malta, Sicily, and just took Rome  . I even considered a no-CB war (too far away to fabricate a claim atm) to take Rome back before they get a core on it, because it's going to take like 500 ADM to core every time someone else takes it.e: if anything Increased Core Cost imo should only apply to dominant culture/same culture group provinces. So taking North African provinces would be expensive, but really I don't see any reason why Tunis holding onto Rome for a few years should make it way more expensive for everyone else to conquer for the next 150 years, unless Tunis actually converts Roman culture as well. vyelkin fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Nov 3, 2015 |
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Nov 3, 2015 15:40
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Wiz posted:The question you need to ask yourself is "would this be any kind of deterrence to me, as a player?". Theswarms posted:Maybe armies fighting distant overseas should get some negative modifiers so it's harder for people to just stomp them? Or the increased coring cost could be replaced with large bonus' to fighting in their own culture provinces, making invading them difficult but them weaker at invading/better at reclaiming lost provinces? Tahirovic posted:Maybe find a way to make the actual wars against them more costly, not the after war part. Give them a discipline bonus or attrition/fort defense bonus or whatever the AI and the player actually take into account. A bigger galley cost/power bonus might move it from a land war to a naval war. These other penalties go away once you're big. Toxic cores stay toxic forever. If you don't like it, make a client state or a vassal. Everyone can vassalize the Muslim tech group. Even the Ottomans essentially vassalized them.
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Nov 3, 2015 15:47
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In my last game the mamluks had expanded into northern africa. I took all their egyptian stuff for myself then force-vassalized & forcefed them all of the berber provinces. Problem solved.
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Nov 3, 2015 16:03
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vyelkin posted:The absolute worst is when North African nations are successful and start expanding overseas and spreading their toxic cores to other places. In my Britain game atm Tunis has been very successful and taken Corsica/Sardinia, Malta, Sicily, and just took Rome I think nations lose cores on provinces not of their culture if they're forced to release nations or return cores.
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Nov 3, 2015 18:04
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double nine posted:In my last game the mamluks had expanded into northern africa. I took all their egyptian stuff for myself then force-vassalized & forcefed them all of the berber provinces. Problem solved. You will stay pay for that, but in diplo points. I am pretty sure increased coring cost applies to diplo annexation. This is why the Iberian Wedding event and the Spain decision are so hilarious, you feed Aragon all that toxic poo poo land then press a button and get the cores for free. So as a Castile player I don't give a poo poo about the core cost, I use my Admin to core France and Italy. And no, nerfing the form nation decisions is not the way to solve this.
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Nov 3, 2015 18:18
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Tahirovic posted:And no, nerfing the form nation decisions is not the way to solve this. It totally is. You should only inherit+core the parts of Aragon that are inside of the Spanish region.
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Nov 3, 2015 18:19
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Tahirovic posted:You will stay pay for that, but in diplo points. I am pretty sure increased coring cost applies to diplo annexation. mamluks aren't berber. Don't have the +coring costs.
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Nov 3, 2015 18:20
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Hmm, you should not be able to give land to a country you are in personal union with unless they have a core on it sounds like a good fix to me.
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Nov 3, 2015 18:21
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What's wrong with that increased warscore cost for provinces idea someone posted earlier? That one sounded pretty reasonable to me. Makes it meaningfully harder to gobble them up, without the tears and agony of increased coring cost. Maybe increased coring time, either as a separate idea or in addition. Have them contribute to overextension longer. Though that one has the same kind of problem of only helping once you've already lost. Strudel Man fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Nov 3, 2015 |
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Nov 3, 2015 20:42
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How about give them a increased peace cost and overextension weight instead? Same coring cost, but you can't take as much development points in each war.
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Nov 3, 2015 20:52
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Maybe increase coring time instead? I'd be hesitant to conquer anything that stuck me with 10 years of overextension.
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Nov 3, 2015 21:09
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God drat, when the commonwealth forms, they are always such a gorilla. Stick a 120-strong stack on a siege in 1643 and laugh off the 5% attrition, why don't you.
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Nov 3, 2015 21:34
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My current Venice -> Byz game produced one of the weirdest Europes I've ever seen in this game. I had nothing to do with any of that, except for the Balkans obviously.
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Nov 3, 2015 21:38
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It's too small for me to tell -- did Austria PU and integrate france, or is that france up near brittany?
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Nov 3, 2015 21:46
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I don't know, maybe I'm just bad at the game (I am bad at the game), but the whole lucky nation mechanic just feels terribly unfair if you start as anyone other than one of the major players. I like starting small, but in EU4, that always means the midgame involves bumping up against countries who are both significantly larger than you and get strong global bonuses on top. God help you if you start outside of Europe, and your first contact is with a giant hugely technologically superior nation with magic bonuses who wants your land.
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Nov 3, 2015 21:47
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My Japan game went great, I colonized all the unclaimed land in se Asia, gobbled up Brunei and the southern coast of china, and westernized by 1630. Now it's boring though, if I push harder into china they coalition me to death and I am not big or strong enough to take on Europe. Thinking of starting a new game while I wait for fallout 4 to come out, and I would like to play a land power since I am tired of managing fleets. I'd like something not already all powerful like the Ottomans to avoid boredness from roflstomping everybody, but not so small that I can easily be gobbled up.. Any thoughts?
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Nov 3, 2015 21:48
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Strudel Man posted:I don't know, maybe I'm just bad at the game (I am bad at the game), but the whole lucky nation mechanic just feels terribly unfair if you start as anyone other than one of the major players. I like starting small, but in EU4, that always means the midgame involves bumping up against countries who are both significantly larger than you and get strong global bonuses on top. God help you if you start outside of Europe, and your first contact is with a giant hugely technologically superior nation with magic bonuses who wants your land. Lucky nations can be turned off, you know. But they really aren't that big of a deal -- just stay a little further away for them or wait on playing small nations until you have a better grasp of the game.
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Nov 3, 2015 21:50
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GreyPowerVan posted:Lucky nations can be turned off, you know. Staying away doesn't really work, because they're good at eating their neighbors, so they always make their way to my border eventually. And even if I avoid direct conflict, there's alliances that get me dragged in. And of course, I have to expand in their direction as well, or else I'm just weaker than I'd otherwise be when the borders finally meet. Strudel Man fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Nov 3, 2015 |
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Nov 3, 2015 21:52
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GreyPowerVan posted:It's too small for me to tell -- did Austria PU and integrate france, or is that france up near brittany? They got them into a PU in 1493, finally integrated in about 1720. The bit in the north is still Brittany. Denmark is the Hansa, and Scandinavia is the Teutonic Order. Burgundy still exists, Holland is extending toward Austria and already at Hessen, Russia never formed because Lithuania took Ryazan, Catalonia was punched out of Spain and Naples is independent and owning almost all of Italy.
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Nov 3, 2015 21:54
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Strudel Man posted:I don't know, maybe I'm just bad at the game (I am bad at the game), but the whole lucky nation mechanic just feels terribly unfair if you start as anyone other than one of the major players. I like starting small, but in EU4, that always means the midgame involves bumping up against countries who are both significantly larger than you and get strong global bonuses on top. God help you if you start outside of Europe, and your first contact is with a giant hugely technologically superior nation with magic bonuses who wants your land. Lucky Nations are there just like missions and AI preset Idea groups so that the game generally flows somewhat historically. If you knock out any of the primary colonizers early in the game, for example, the New World starts looking really weird cause you end up with like Scottish Nova Scotia rubbing borders with Dutch Nova Hollandia.
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Nov 3, 2015 22:12
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Eej posted:Lucky Nations are there just like missions and AI preset Idea groups so that the game generally flows somewhat historically. If you knock out any of the primary colonizers early in the game, for example, the New World starts looking really weird cause you end up with like Scottish Nova Scotia rubbing borders with Dutch Nova Hollandia.
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Nov 3, 2015 22:26
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Even with the Lucky Nation bonuses, really weird poo poo can happen in a simulation like this and it's not uncommon to see France split in two by Burgundy, England crushed into constituent nations by Scotland, Castille broken apart by Aragon, etc.
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Nov 3, 2015 22:30
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Wiz posted:What kind of bonus will prevent North Africa from being all Iberian all the time? A) It already does become Iberian, hostile core creation does nothing significant to stop this. B) A potent military bonus in the early game, something like +Leader Shock or -33% Heavy Ship cost as a tradition to make it possible that the North Africans actually defend their coastlines through military means. Wiz posted:The question you need to ask yourself is "would this be any kind of deterrence to me, as a player?". Maybe I dont understand the distinction the same way you do, but you shouldn't seem to want to 'deter' the player from conquering a given region so much as 'challenge' the player. And as is there is nothing at all challenging about conquering North Africa currently, it's just that people who want to optimize will eternally ignore it because any other target gives more reward for the same or less effort.
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Nov 4, 2015 00:39
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There's an existing modifier that reduces years of Separatism. What if instead of a coring cost increase, they had more/longer Separatism? +10-15 Years of Separatism would be a pretty potent deterrent in the early game where you probably don't have the Missionary Strength to convert quickly and can't really spare the manpower to put down revolts.
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Nov 4, 2015 00:51
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Strudel Man posted:Sure, but they're given to the nations that are in the best position anyway even absent luck bonuses, so it seems a little unnecessary. You'd think so, but if you turn lucky nation bonuses off, the major AI nations just collapse more often than not.
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Nov 4, 2015 00:53
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Pellisworth posted:There's an existing modifier that reduces years of Separatism. What if instead of a coring cost increase, they had more/longer Separatism? That still has the problem of being something that only helps a nation after they've lost vast swathes of land. At least the idea someone brought up earlier that they would spawn more rebels would be more likely to knock the land out of foreign hands. Instead of making the rebels last longer make them punch harder.
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Nov 4, 2015 01:02
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derkaiser posted:My current Venice -> Byz game produced one of the weirdest Europes I've ever seen in this game. I had nothing to do with any of that, except for the Balkans obviously. You can't post this and not explain how the bloody hell did the Teutonic Order migrate to Scandinavia.
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Nov 4, 2015 01:10
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420 Gank Mid posted:That still has the problem of being something that only helps a nation after they've lost vast swathes of land. At least the idea someone brought up earlier that they would spawn more rebels would be more likely to knock the land out of foreign hands. Instead of making the rebels last longer make them punch harder. Rebels lasting longer and hitting harder makes them more likely to overthrow their conquerors, especially in the early game where manpower is precious. Also it would mean a Berber player would actually benefit since they could get their land back by supporting rebels and then using the intervention CB. This would also add the first real reason to support rebels other than farming out the cheevo for it. My real opposition to hcc is a desire to make Tunis more than an Ottoman buffer state. Of course the paradox response to any complaints is a tear stained middle finger so none of this matters. Acute Grill fucked around with this message at 06:24 on Nov 4, 2015 |
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Nov 4, 2015 01:13
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I really like the idea of higher rebellion chance/harder hitting rebels. It does a much better job of simulating a hostile and restless population.
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Nov 4, 2015 01:22
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I've seen Morocco survive combined Iberian invasions in multiple playthroughs because a stack of Noble Pretenders parked themselves on top of Tangiers right before war broke out and it severely disrupted anything they landed in North Africa. It would definitely make it easier for players to take back cores in North Africa too.
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Nov 4, 2015 01:25
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PittTheElder posted:You'd think so, but if you turn lucky nation bonuses off, the major AI nations just collapse more often than not.
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Nov 4, 2015 01:26
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 It's "successful", and the sentence doesn't make much sense to begin with. I don't know what that "lately have given" is doing there, but it's preventing me from playing any further! Fix it, or I'll rebel flag you guys so hard! 
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Nov 4, 2015 01:28
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Oh yeah, the "Agressive Expander" achievement needs two g's too, that's been bothering me for a while since it's like my most recent unlocked and I see it every time I launch the game.
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Nov 4, 2015 01:31
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