Ask Go players about Go (come play Go with us)

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silvergoose: Mar 18, 2006; IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS

giogadi posted:

Apparently a pretty big game is going on now between Ke Jie and Lee Sedol for the Samsung Cup.

What's fun is that we actually have a stream with live English commentary!

Missed it, supposedly video'll be up in a few hours since it was a longass stream.

# ? Nov 3, 2015 15:33

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# ? May 27, 2024 21:22

Symbolic Butt: Mar 22, 2009; (_!_); Buglord

dirby posted:

Do you have a link?

https://code.facebook.com/posts/1478523512478471/teaching-machines-to-see-and-understand-advances-in-ai-research/
http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~cmaddis/pubs/deepgo.pdf

# ? Nov 3, 2015 15:54

Borachon: Jun 15, 2011; Whiskey Powered

Symbolic Butt posted:

https://code.facebook.com/posts/1478523512478471/teaching-machines-to-see-and-understand-advances-in-ai-research/
http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~cmaddis/pubs/deepgo.pdf

You know, there's a lot of interesting things there, but a lot that really bugs the crap about me about how the cool things that paper does are being hyped:

Their technique (CNN) is not playing at 6 dan level. The paper says it top move choice is the same move it's 6 dan second author picked 55% of the time, and that move is in it's top 5 set of moves 90% of the time. That's really good for guiding search, but not "playing at 6 dan level".
CNN beats GnuGo 97% of the time without searching. Again, that's really good, but GnuGo is hardly state of the art in computer go. CNN beats Pachi and Fuego (monte carlo search tree (MCST) systems) 10% of the time, again without searching, so again a good result, but also not yet a revolution in computer Go, either.
The paper integrates CNN evaluation with MCST, which is difficult, and the most important thing. What we need to know is if this can actually guide search well. It then compares CNN + MCST to CNN without MCST. Note that the paper doesn't compare CNN + MCST vs. just MCST, so they don't show that their CNN technique improves the play of state-of-the-art MCST systems like Pachi, Fuego, or Aya. That's a telling omission in my eyes.

EDIT: The actual paper is by a Toronto/Google team, not facebook. Unlike the Google paper, the facebook post gives not actual information about how it does, just "hey, it's strong!". My guess is that this is a fruitful research direction (MCST programs have been looking at neural nets for move evaluation for a long time), but some of this looks like a lot of unsubstantiated marketing hype, too.

EDIT2: The facebook video also looks to be against GnuGo 3.8, which was released in 2009.

Borachon fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Nov 3, 2015

# ? Nov 3, 2015 16:25

giogadi: Oct 27, 2009

silvergoose posted:

Missed it, supposedly video'll be up in a few hours since it was a longass stream.

This was the first match in a best of 3 series, so they'll be doing this again tonight. I actually really enjoyed the commentary! It's two casters: Andrew Jackson, a very strong amateur; and Munwhang (sp?) Kim, a Korean 9p. Kim had really deep insight on the board, while Andrew did it a good job of pulling his wisdom down to our level. I look forward to watching the stream tonight (7:30 pst iirc)

# ? Nov 3, 2015 16:36

dirby: Sep 21, 2004; Helping goons with math

silvergoose posted:

Missed it, supposedly video'll be up in a few hours since it was a longass stream.

I'm confused. I thought I was watching the video two hours before you made this post :confused:

# ? Nov 3, 2015 17:36

silvergoose: Mar 18, 2006; IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS

dirby posted:

I'm confused. I thought I was watching the video two hours before you made this post

Sorry. I missed the live video. The replay should be up at some point, since it is a long-rear end stream so needs time to upload.

# ? Nov 3, 2015 18:18

dirby: Sep 21, 2004; Helping goons with math

silvergoose posted:

Sorry. I missed the live video. The replay should be up at some point, since it is a long-rear end stream so needs time to upload.

In US time zones, the live video was last night, and the replay is at https://youtube.com/watch?v=quOHkhwBHWg and has been for at least 5 hours. Unless I watched the wrong video or something.

# ? Nov 3, 2015 18:39

silvergoose: Mar 18, 2006; IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS

dirby posted:

In US time zones, the live video was last night, and the replay is at https://youtube.com/watch?v=quOHkhwBHWg and has been for at least 5 hours. Unless I watched the wrong video or something.

Nope, I'm guessing that the information I was looking at was very wrong or a few hours out of date.

Thanks!!

# ? Nov 3, 2015 18:41

dirby: Sep 21, 2004; Helping goons with math

Maybe this is old news, but http://goban.org/ is an HTML5 sgf editor. If you search, you can find corresponding browser apps (chrome, opera, and firefox, I think). It won't load sgf files from my phone properly, but now you don't need anything installed on a device to discuss variations, etc.

Thread by developer on another forum is at http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=11239

dirby fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Nov 4, 2015

# ? Nov 4, 2015 17:12

Symbolic Butt: Mar 22, 2009; (_!_); Buglord

Borachon posted:

You know, there's a lot of interesting things there, but a lot that really bugs the crap about me about how the cool things that paper does are being hyped:

Their technique (CNN) is not playing at 6 dan level. The paper says it top move choice is the same move it's 6 dan second author picked 55% of the time, and that move is in it's top 5 set of moves 90% of the time. That's really good for guiding search, but not "playing at 6 dan level".

CNN beats GnuGo 97% of the time without searching. Again, that's really good, but GnuGo is hardly state of the art in computer go. CNN beats Pachi and Fuego (monte carlo search tree (MCST) systems) 10% of the time, again without searching, so again a good result, but also not yet a revolution in computer Go, either.

The paper integrates CNN evaluation with MCST, which is difficult, and the most important thing. What we need to know is if this can actually guide search well. It then compares CNN + MCST to CNN without MCST. Note that the paper doesn't compare CNN + MCST vs. just MCST, so they don't show that their CNN technique improves the play of state-of-the-art MCST systems like Pachi, Fuego, or Aya. That's a telling omission in my eyes.

EDIT: The actual paper is by a Toronto/Google team, not facebook. Unlike the Google paper, the facebook post gives not actual information about how it does, just "hey, it's strong!". My guess is that this is a fruitful research direction (MCST programs have been looking at neural nets for move evaluation for a long time), but some of this looks like a lot of unsubstantiated marketing hype, too.

EDIT2: The facebook video also looks to be against GnuGo 3.8, which was released in 2009.

Thanks for the insights, and wow I really mixed up those links, I'm sorry... I tried to find more information about facebook's thing and it's all vague.

# ? Nov 5, 2015 13:47

ashgromnies: Jun 19, 2004

Anyone have a recommendation for a good iOS app to play against a coworker over the internet? I used to use Pandanet's Go client but it's been removed from the App Store

# ? Nov 6, 2015 04:17

Borachon: Jun 15, 2011; Whiskey Powered

According to Nick Wedd on the Computer Go mailing list, the facebook program appears to be playing on KGS as darkforest and darkfores1. It doesn't play ranked, but general feeling seems to be that it's about KGS 1d or so.

# ? Nov 6, 2015 13:47

dirby: Sep 21, 2004; Helping goons with math

Did KGS just go down?

Dammit, and in the middle of a game, too!
Restarted the computer and was able to finish the game. I do not play well under the time pressure of KGS automatch's "fast game", apparently.

dirby fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Nov 7, 2015

# ? Nov 7, 2015 18:05

Whistling Asshole: Nov 18, 2005

dirby posted:

Did KGS just go down?

Dammit, and in the middle of a game, too!
Restarted the computer and was able to finish the game. I do not play well under the time pressure of KGS automatch's "fast game", apparently.

It's been down for me for 20 minutes

# ? Nov 8, 2015 00:37

Xom: Sep 2, 2008; 文化英雄; Fan of Britches

A website can be up while a game server is down.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 00:47

derp: Jan 21, 2010; when i get up all i want to do is go to bed again; Lipstick Apathy

time for everyone to relocate to the new hip and with it go server that all the kids are using

# ? Nov 8, 2015 01:04

dirby: Sep 21, 2004; Helping goons with math

Xom posted:

A website can be up while a game server is down.

But it wasn't for me. I think in my case something between me and both the site/server was having problems. When I restarted my computer I had no troubles with either and some people had no interruption.

# ? Nov 8, 2015 02:36

IMlemon: Dec 29, 2008

White to play

big hint: blacks shape at top left isn't as strong as it appears

IMlemon fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Nov 8, 2015

# ? Nov 8, 2015 18:58

AdorableStar: Jul 13, 2013

I think you can pick up a few points by attaching underneath because if B tries to kill your stone he'll just get cut and suddenly a white moyo.

# ? Nov 9, 2015 07:42

IMlemon: Dec 29, 2008

AdorableStar posted:

I think you can pick up a few points by attaching underneath because if B tries to kill your stone he'll just get cut and suddenly a white moyo.

Yep. My opponent opted for the worst variation out there, f2 e2 e4 f4 g2 e3 a3 RIP

IMlemon fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Nov 9, 2015

# ? Nov 9, 2015 23:34

ThePineapple: Oct 19, 2009

IMlemon posted:

White to play

big hint: blacks shape at top left isn't as strong as it appears

I'm not sure that f2 really deprives black of two eyes if black responds with g2. White will still be able to grab a moyo in the center, but black also gets out too.

I messed around with some variations:
http://eidogo.com/#2PquqUVUN

(let me know if I missed something!)

ThePineapple fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Nov 10, 2015

# ? Nov 10, 2015 01:13

derp: Jan 21, 2010; when i get up all i want to do is go to bed again; Lipstick Apathy

i got another golden trophy

UNGHGH YESSS IM SO GOOD AT GO

# ? Nov 11, 2015 19:56

derp: Jan 21, 2010; when i get up all i want to do is go to bed again; Lipstick Apathy

Anyone who wants to be in a go hangout group for friends on skype pm me your skype name

# ? Nov 13, 2015 02:47

dirby: Sep 21, 2004; Helping goons with math

uranus posted:

Anyone who wants to be in a go hangout group for friends on skype pm me your skype name

What would be the benefit of that over ITGO?

# ? Nov 13, 2015 04:21

derp: Jan 21, 2010; when i get up all i want to do is go to bed again; Lipstick Apathy

im always logged into skype, im not always logged into kgs. also voice chat if you want.

# ? Nov 13, 2015 04:49

derp: Jan 21, 2010; when i get up all i want to do is go to bed again; Lipstick Apathy

also i like having more skype friends

# ? Nov 13, 2015 04:49

AdorableStar: Jul 13, 2013

uranus posted:

also i like having more skype friends

Add me to the thing

# ? Nov 13, 2015 06:18

silvergoose: Mar 18, 2006; IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS

Hooray! I played the guy I always play at the once a year convention, he gave me 9 stones last year and beat me by 50-60, so his 4 kyumeans I'm probably around 20 kyu.

This year, he spotted me 9 again, and I trapped a big group in the center and he resigned. Sooooo I am probably better now? Who knows!

Also played shogi love that game. :3:

(I kinda wrecked him because we're both lovely at castling)

silvergoose fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Nov 13, 2015

# ? Nov 13, 2015 16:36

AdorableStar: Jul 13, 2013

As a 4 kyu I'm going to say I have no clue how to play against 4h, much less 5+.

# ? Nov 13, 2015 17:17

derp: Jan 21, 2010; when i get up all i want to do is go to bed again; Lipstick Apathy

you just trhow some stones around and it works itself out

# ? Nov 13, 2015 17:20

Symbolic Butt: Mar 22, 2009; (_!_); Buglord

AdorableStar posted:

As a 4 kyu I'm going to say I have no clue how to play against 4h, much less 5+.

pretend you'll get free extra moves every once in a while and badabang

# ? Nov 13, 2015 17:24

derp: Jan 21, 2010; when i get up all i want to do is go to bed again; Lipstick Apathy

wtf. why is 'the second book of go' FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS on amazon?

should.... should i sell mine??

# ? Nov 13, 2015 20:37

Xom: Sep 2, 2008; 文化英雄; Fan of Britches

http://camelcamelcamel.com/Second-Book-Beginner-Elementary-Books/product/4906574319

# ? Nov 14, 2015 04:24

silvergoose: Mar 18, 2006; IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS

AdorableStar posted:

As a 4 kyu I'm going to say I have no clue how to play against 4h, much less 5+.

Pretty much; he knows how to attack attack attack, and eventually either overplays (as in that game) or doesn't (the previous year's game). I do think I've gotten a bit better at playing solid moves, even when they're in gote, because then suddenly my shape doesn't look insanely bad and oh well I gave up one of my 9 free moves at the beginning, that's okay.

# ? Nov 14, 2015 15:02

AdorableStar: Jul 13, 2013

Can white double hane here? If so, why? Reading problems!

# ? Nov 15, 2015 05:59

AdorableStar: Jul 13, 2013

Finally finished Cho's intermediate. :toot:

# ? Nov 16, 2015 03:10

Xom: Sep 2, 2008; 文化英雄; Fan of Britches

Uncle Jam posted:

I managed to talk my way out of being banned when naming my account shiting.

Have you tried changing your name to Takeshi T.

# ? Nov 21, 2015 23:51

ashgromnies: Jun 19, 2004

There really aren't any good iOS networked Go apps?

# ? Nov 24, 2015 15:55

mycophobia: May 7, 2008

Wtf happened to pandanet

# ? Nov 24, 2015 16:06

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# ? May 27, 2024 21:22

Pappyland: Jun 17, 2004; There's no limit to your imagination!; College Slice

Posting in here to mention that SmartGo Kifu for iPad/iPhone is worth every penny.

As an aside, what's a good beginner's book for Go to give as a gift? It seems that 'The Second Book of Go' is extraordinarily expensive on Amazon.

# ? Nov 30, 2015 06:56

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