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Kaz asking "What about him?" was a dream like when Paz fell out of the chopper without the bomb inside of her.
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Nov 3, 2015 17:17
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AnxiousApatosaurus posted:Doesn't Zero straight up tell Kaz the plan over the phone in the Truth tapes? I remember him telling him the code to enact the plan is 'V has come to'. I thought this was the source of all of his 'never be whole' talk because he felt Big Boss betrayed him. It seems safe to say that Miller didn't know the "Big Boss" he was running interference for in Afghanistan was Venom, and that the real Big Boss was already awake. His capture and maiming are the direct result of the delay from the switch, which is at least part of the reason he says "Now I have lost everything" and "What was it all for?" when he's told the truth. Also he wouldn't need to be told the truth by Ocelot if Zero had already told him. The only things that Kaz learns in that tape are that Big Boss is alive and coming back (sort of true, but not the way Kaz thinks) and that Zero claims the destruction of MSF was done by someone else (Skull Face, which is also true).
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Nov 3, 2015 17:17
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Did they just run out of time when designing mother base? For all it's expanse, there's very little actual content- command platform has a few posters, medical platform has the Paz hallucinations, R&D platform lets you see Huey working on battle gear, and then the quarantine platform stuff. But there are very few interior areas, the other main characters aren't around to visit directly if you just want to hang out with them. Going back to Mother Base is kind of pointless side from morale, showers, or specific missions. For an open world game, Mother Base ended up being an oversized jungle gym more than anything 
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Nov 3, 2015 17:51
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Wasn't it implied that Miller was in on it from the get go in how he gave himself up for capture to provide a distraction from the hospital escape? He must have had some limited knowledge of what was going on even if he didn't put it together. e: it's probably incorrect to say that he gave himself up, but whatever offensive he was on with the diamond dogs that got them wiped out by skulls.
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Nov 3, 2015 18:19
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Slightly Toasted posted:Wasn't it implied that Miller was in on it from the get go in how he gave himself up for capture to provide a distraction from the hospital escape? He must have had some limited knowledge of what was going on even if he didn't put it together. Not quite. One of the jobs he was doing to keep busy/track Cipher was to help the CIA train the Mujahideen.
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Nov 3, 2015 18:31
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The first thing that Venom says to Kaz when he rescues him is "Did they do something to your eyes?" If it really was a genetic thing or something he's had for awhile, that's when the jig was up. Big Boss would have known about it when he captured him a decade back.
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Nov 3, 2015 18:47
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He was told that he'd be informed when Big Boss woke up, and that he'd need to provide a distraction (the mission where he strays into Afghan territory and gets captured) to draw Cipher/Skull Face's attention away so they don't just overwhelm the Cyprus hospital or something. What Miller doesn't know at that time is that Big Boss has been awake for a while and could've slipped away already but they're waiting on his double to be ready to go and the delay is what gets the hospital attacked by Cipher and what gets Miller captured and makes him lose his arm and leg. Big Boss choosing to go through with the body double plan and waiting for Venom to wake up so he can do the switcheroo is the direct cause of Miller's maiming and the deaths of everyone in the hospital, and he knows this (Ocelot reminds him the patients and doctors will be his shield and get killed for his sake). He had the opportunity to escape and spare all those people's lives and possibly could've prevented Kaz's injuries as well by letting him know he was up and away. He sacrificed Kaz and a bunch of innocent people just to pull off his swap.
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Nov 3, 2015 18:51
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I get the feeling that you guys put in about 10x the effort that Kojima did analysing this really bad plot.
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Nov 3, 2015 18:57
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notZaar posted:I get the feeling that you guys put in about 10x the effort that Kojima did analysing this really bad plot. This is true which is why it's dumb to say that only dweebs care about plot holes. A question I just thought of: if XOF and the Volgin/Mantis team were both sent to kill Big Boss at Cyprus, why were they fighting among themselves? Shouldn't XOF have been informed that Volgin/Mantis would be there and to stay out of their way?
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Nov 3, 2015 19:31
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Venom controls Mantis several times and Volgin might be controlling Mantis himself at that point, so XOF might not have control of him. You can't rely on Mantis to stay on your side anyway because he mimics whoever has the most anger and desire for revenge, as Skull Face eventually learns when Eli's teen angst overpowers his own.
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Nov 3, 2015 19:35
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Elephant Ambush posted:A question I just thought of: if XOF and the Volgin/Mantis team were both sent to kill Big Boss at Cyprus, why were they fighting among themselves? Shouldn't XOF have been informed that Volgin/Mantis would be there and to stay out of their way? They weren't working together at that point. The tapes claim that Mantis' plane crash allowed Skull Face to figure out where Big Boss was hidden in Cyprus. Skull Face then sent XOF to assault the hopsital but Volgin and Mantis showed up as well and clashed with XOF. It was only after Cyprus that Skull Face bound Mantis and Volgin to him with his lust for revenge.
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Nov 3, 2015 19:38
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What's the story on the physical truth tapes? How does Venom get them?
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Nov 3, 2015 19:58
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Shaocaholica posted:What's the story on the physical truth tapes? How does Venom get them? there is none. those are for you, the player. they have like no bearing on anything and how they even get obtained is like "it's a videogame" logic so whatever
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Nov 3, 2015 20:02
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MinibarMatchman posted:there is none. those are for you, the player. they have like no bearing on anything and how they even get obtained is like "it's a videogame" logic so whatever That's odd I guess. I mean its Venom that pushes play on the iDroid. Usually that kind of MGS poo poo is audio over a black screen. 'For the player only'. Sigh.
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Nov 3, 2015 20:08
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Shaocaholica posted:That's odd I guess. I mean its Venom that pushes play on the iDroid. Usually that kind of MGS poo poo is audio over a black screen. 'For the player only'. Sigh. at the end of the day it's just a videogame and this was really the most last minute thing ever they could gift to us in regards to explaining everything. I love the game to death but the amount of unfinished poo poo is staggering so with those Truth tapes, you take what you can get. I suppose there's the offchance they are "real" in-game but I have no idea how that would ever play out since once the ending plays, you get put right back on Mother Base even after the N313 tape scene.
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Nov 3, 2015 20:11
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Shaocaholica posted:What's the story on the physical truth tapes? How does Venom get them? But look man Venom gets cassette tapes from his own subconscious, having access to secret meetings between Big Boss and Ocelot is at least a thing that actually happened as opposed to that time Venom imagined he was listening to a tape where ghost-Paz called him insane.
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Nov 3, 2015 20:47
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Venom is the player 
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Nov 3, 2015 21:21
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Slightly Toasted posted:Venom is the player I just realized that's literally the mechanism through which they gave Venom all of Big Boss's memories. Because you've played the other games.
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Nov 3, 2015 21:30
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Snak posted:I just realized that's literally the mechanism through which they gave Venom all of Big Boss's memories. Because you've played the other games. Yeah that's pretty brilliant even if there's a lot of other stuff in this game that's dumb as heck.
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Nov 3, 2015 23:06
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Snak posted:I just realized that's literally the mechanism through which they gave Venom all of Big Boss's memories. Because you've played the other games. Huh, that's a nice connection
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Nov 3, 2015 23:12
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notZaar posted:I get the feeling that you guys put in about 10x the effort that Kojima did analysing this really bad plot. Hmm.
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Nov 3, 2015 23:33
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Snak posted:I just realized that's literally the mechanism through which they gave Venom all of Big Boss's memories. Because you've played the other games. Wow, I never realized that. Does that imply that in MGS3, PW and GZ (and PoOps, I guess) you don't actually play Big Boss through his adventures but rather you're being hypnotized (or however they implanted Medic/Venom with BBs memories) to believe that you're going through all these things?
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Nov 3, 2015 23:35
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You guys are full of BBS.
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Nov 3, 2015 23:40
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Jack Trades posted:Wow, I never realized that. no, it's implying that you, the player, are the memories implanted in venom, and there isn't an in-game version of it. Like how there's no in-game explanation for "look on the back of the game's case" and "plug into controller port 2"
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Nov 3, 2015 23:43
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Jack Trades posted:Wow, I never realized that. It's almost like... VR training!
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Nov 4, 2015 00:00
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So wait does that mean I also know the future? Do I know that I get blown up by Solid Snake with a rocket launcher while the real Big Boss gets to smoke a cigar at Arlington after murdering an invalid and hugging his gross microwaved son and die peacefully? And also everything else that's going to happen in MGS1/2/4?
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Nov 4, 2015 00:16
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How exactly does BB get infected with the Foxdie virus again?
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Nov 4, 2015 00:33
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By being in close proximity to Solid Snake. I assume him breathing allows FOXDIE to spread through the air.
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Nov 4, 2015 00:37
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I will say, despite the twist of Venom not being Big Boss, Kojima didn't take an out many writers would have, deciding to use this as a grand cosmic retcon so Big Boss was never the boss of Foxhound and the like, a dumping ground for all his evil deeds. Instead, no, Big Boss is still an rear end in a top hat who misunderstood the Boss's will and probably got a lot of innocent people killed.
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Nov 4, 2015 00:39
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Jack Trades posted:Wow, I never realized that. Bushiz posted:no, it's implying that you, the player, are the memories implanted in venom, and there isn't an in-game version of it. Like how there's no in-game explanation for "look on the back of the game's case" and "plug into controller port 2" Elephant Ambush posted:It's almost like... VR training! Nakar posted:So wait does that mean I also know the future? Do I know that I get blown up by Solid Snake with a rocket launcher while the real Big Boss gets to smoke a cigar at Arlington after murdering an invalid and hugging his gross microwaved son and die peacefully? And also everything else that's going to happen in MGS1/2/4?
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Nov 4, 2015 00:44
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the grand twist is that the player is a Snatcher
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Nov 4, 2015 00:46
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You can't assume Kaz knew the exact extent of all the injured msf soliders along with him in that room, especially the nameless solider 2 beds over. He wasn't a doctor treating them, he's not going to have a detailed analysis. And since they were all in an explosion, collided with another helicopter, and crashed into the ocean, they probably all suffered from shrapnel. A vauge comment from a doctor isn't going to mean anything in a hectic moment like that, and won't have any longevity. He's also always on the field, and has probably seen countless injuries and wounds, more than he can keep track of. And it had been 9 years. It's really not a plothole.
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Nov 4, 2015 01:26
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Ausmund posted:You can't assume Kaz knew the exact extent of all the injured msf soliders along with him in that room, especially the nameless solider 2 beds over. He wasn't a doctor treating them, he's not going to have a detailed analysis. And since they were all in an explosion, collided with another helicopter, and crashed into the ocean, they probably all suffered from shrapnel. A vauge comment from a doctor isn't going to mean anything in a hectic moment like that, and won't have any longevity. He's also always on the field, and has probably seen countless injuries and wounds, more than he can keep track of. And it had been 9 years. no let me rewrite the entire game because
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Nov 4, 2015 01:28
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Ausmund posted:You can't assume Kaz knew the exact extent of all the injured msf soliders along with him in that room, especially the nameless solider 2 beds over. He wasn't a doctor treating them, he's not going to have a detailed analysis. And since they were all in an explosion, collided with another helicopter, and crashed into the ocean, they probably all suffered from shrapnel. A vauge comment from a doctor isn't going to mean anything in a hectic moment like that, and won't have any longevity. He's also always on the field, and has probably seen countless injuries and wounds, more than he can keep track of. And it had been 9 years. But yeah Kaz just forgot, I mean who would remember inconsequential little things like "did Snake get a big-rear end forehead horn in the crash nine years ago."
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Nov 4, 2015 01:36
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I said it before in the thread, they refer to you as Big Boss's best man. You're player 2 from Peace Walker, the best soldier you could've kidnapped. You are in a picture with Kaz, Morpho, Big Boss, and you. You guys know each other but you don't really have a name other than the one given to you after the surgery, which was Ahab to make the "Ishmael Hallucination/Bodyguard" thing work. Also, in the truth tapes during the conversation between Kaz and Zero, Kaz kept saying the doctors wouldn't stop putting him under, he was probably being hysterical over losing his entire future, and hearing his best bud go in a coma in seconds. Safe to assume he would forget a thing like the number two guy having shrapnel in his head. Or maybe he didn't forget and he refused to believe they would do such a hosed up thing, and he kept on believing Big Boss was back, like in the mother base tapes. Just like me, the player, who refused to believe the Venom snake dupe and was big boss and wanted to get revenge. Fargin Icehole fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Nov 4, 2015 |
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Nov 4, 2015 01:54
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Big Boss's best man is Kaz thoNakar posted:Kaz loving sees the guy two beds over, who was in the helicopter with them and presumably the only other survivor, asks "What about him?" and gets told the guy took shrapnel to the head. He also is right next to Big Boss and can see pretty clearly that Big Boss does not have shrapnel in his head. Nine years later Big Boss has shrapnel in his head. It's also literally the first thing in the first real trailer.
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Nov 4, 2015 01:56
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Onmi posted:I will say, despite the twist of Venom not being Big Boss, Kojima didn't take an out many writers would have, deciding to use this as a grand cosmic retcon so Big Boss was never the boss of Foxhound and the like, a dumping ground for all his evil deeds. Instead, no, Big Boss is still an rear end in a top hat who misunderstood the Boss's will and probably got a lot of innocent people killed. I like that too, BB is still a lovely person, just in a different way. It also makes alot of the stuff you do PP hollow, but i am pretty sure thats the point. revenge isn't some wonderful super fulfilling thing. the Skullface death scene shows it perfectly. sure it feels great when V and Kaz basicaly gently caress him up and leave him to die. but then huey comes along makes it all look hallow with his "revenge". it shows it for exactly what it is, torturing and executing a helpless, defeated and mortally wounded enemie. Sure, skullface was an evil piece of poo poo and probably deserved it. But its still hosed up and wrong. Huey shatters the illiusion that what your doing is justice. tltr, gently caress huey.
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Nov 4, 2015 02:47
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It also shows how far they were willing to take their revenge, until it just got a bit sickening. They've tortured Skull Face, they've ruined his plans (as far as they know), he's crippled and begging for death. And Kaz just wants to be super cool and say "Do it yourself" knowing full well that he can't. You got your revenge man, finish him off. And then Huey does what a decent person would've done but for all the wrong reasons because he's a complete shitbag and the whole scene deflates.
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Nov 4, 2015 02:59
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Dapper_Swindler posted:I like that too, BB is still a lovely person, just in a different way. It also makes alot of the stuff you do PP hollow, but i am pretty sure thats the point. revenge isn't some wonderful super fulfilling thing. the Skullface death scene shows it perfectly. sure it feels great when V and Kaz basicaly gently caress him up and leave him to die. but then huey comes along makes it all look hallow with his "revenge". it shows it for exactly what it is, torturing and executing a helpless, defeated and mortally wounded enemie. Sure, skullface was an evil piece of poo poo and probably deserved it. But its still hosed up and wrong. Huey shatters the illiusion that what your doing is justice. Even if Skullface had some really bad ideas for world domination, he did have an extremely destructive virus, and an incomplete and ambitious robot powered somehow by an unlikely ally, as well as being able to arm and disarm his nukes at will. He did have to be stopped. Especially because even if he did get demoted for kinda almost killing Zero and giving him alzheimers, he climbed back and was pretending to be working under cipher's orders or something Fargin Icehole fucked around with this message at 03:05 on Nov 4, 2015 |
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Nov 4, 2015 03:01
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They did stop him, it's more that they wanted him to die in agony that makes the whole thing seem hosed up and empty. They knew Skull Face had some parasites keeping him alive so he could've taken forever to die. They'd won at that point, defeated Sahelanthropus and destroyed the English strain (other than Mantis jacking one). The fact that they torture him rather than just pop him in the dome and head home cheapens the heroic things they actually did to save the world. I mean that's completely intentional, but it's interesting that what Venom does is pretty unabashedly heroic but being driven by vengeance sours any justification at least somewhat. "I want to save the world from a nukes-and-bioweapons-packing madman" is reason enough, tacking on "and then gently caress him right up for everything he's done to me" doesn't add, it detracts.
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Nov 4, 2015 03:09
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