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twodot posted:I definitely agree that the absence of data is bad, but until we have data you should stop making assertions you can't support. I don't see how you can point out that you literally don't know anything relevant to your claim as something in your favor. What data have you provided to support your assertions? I supplied a report by the AP that you dismissed as only looking for data from the FBI. Its rather dull when someone constantly decries the lack of data/research of others, yet does absolutely nothing to elevate the conversation by providing some of their own.
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Nov 6, 2015 23:33
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Trabisnikof posted:What data have you provided to support your assertions? I supplied a report by the AP that you dismissed as only looking for data from the FBI. twodot fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Nov 6, 2015 |
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Nov 6, 2015 23:37
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twodot posted:What assertions have I made? You claim the data literally doesn't exist, so I'm unclear on how you expect me to elevate the conversation other than pointing out they aren't presenting data. The decision on when and how to arrest or charge someone is a legally complicated and strategic action (double jeopardy, speedy trial, right to a lawyer, et cetera), and as I'm not a member of the prosecutors' office in question, I don't really have any insight on the proper way and time to make that decision. I understand that conversation is dull, but I prefer dull over made up speculation. If by me claiming the data doesn't exist you mean the AP reporting on how the data doesn't exist then yes. But I get it, you're not making claims you're just "asking serious questions". You're correct, there are vast differences between when the police arrest other killers and when the police
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Nov 6, 2015 23:44
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Trabisnikof posted:If by me claiming the data doesn't exist you mean the AP reporting on how the data doesn't exist then yes. But I get it, you're not making claims you're just "asking serious questions".
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Nov 6, 2015 23:47
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twodot posted:The AP reported that the FBI doesn't collect data, other means to collect data exist (edit: Which again is tangential to whether arguments should be backed by data). And I'm not asking serious questions, I'm directly telling you that your arguments are garbage because they aren't backed by any data, which strangely you agree that you have no data, but still think you can make claims people should believe. Ok buddy, you've made your opinion very clear, but I'm going to keep pointing out that the police in this situation got treated better than security guards/stand-your-grounders/etc would in a situation like this. I don't have data to back up this claim, but I'm still going to stand by it because it is still true. I realize it doesn't pass muster for you, I disagree that it doesn't pass muster for anyone.
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Nov 6, 2015 23:55
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Devor posted:Your statement about rotting in jail is clearly punitive, and we can't punish him until he's been convicted. What the gently caress drugs are you defenders taking and can I have some. Putting someone in jail for murderimg a 6 year old is how everyone gets treated who isn't a cop. But please let me know how bad you feel for all the other murderers who get to sit in a jail cell because they aren't cops. If they made bail great. Too bad there hasn't even been a loving bail hearing. If you put 5 bullets in a kids head, lied multiple times as to why you had to ventilate a child's head do you seriously expect anyone but the apologists to say you don't deserve to sit in a jail awaiting your bond hearing? Or that sitting in a jail cell waiting to be charged with murder is 'punative'?
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Nov 7, 2015 00:21
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Toasticle posted:What the gently caress drugs are you defenders taking and can I have some. A minor change in facts changes this from manslaughter to a clean shoot, which is why this is harder to investigate. I think that three days of investigation isn't enough time to make sure they put the police away for 20 years vs. getting away with it. I don't think that these four officers who were negligent and shot the child are such a compelling danger that the police should start the ticking clock on charging the officers. Why do they need to be in jail on Friday, if we can instead put them in jail on Monday and maybe put them away for longer? My argument is predicated on the assumption that the prosecutor is acting in good faith, and that my feeling is that three days is an unreasonably short amount of time to figure out which of the four should be charged with the top counts. If they aren't charged in a week, I'll join you in calling for the prosecutor's scalp.
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Nov 7, 2015 00:28
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Toasticle posted:Yeah this is one of the biggest loads of poo poo. Not talking while you consult an attorney, fine, everyone gets to do that. What non cops do NOT get to do is walk around free while under investigation for blowing away a 6-year old for no reason. Non-cops get to sit in a cell, lose their job and suffer the social repercussions of being a child-murderer. Chalets the Baka posted:Exactly. This is an incredibly basic concept, and if you have to question that line of thinking then you should probably step away from civilization and do some soul-searching. Senf posted:I have a hard time believing that I would be allowed to go to work and resume a mostly normal life without being charged and released on bail immediately after I accidentally shot and killed a young child. I don't think I'd be given any leeway in how much I choose to communicate with the investigators, either. Toasticle posted:Putting someone in jail for murderimg a 6 year old is how everyone gets treated who isn't a cop. But please let me know how bad you feel for all the other murderers who get to sit in a jail cell because they aren't cops.
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Nov 7, 2015 00:35
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Devor posted:My argument is predicated on the assumption that the prosecutor is acting in good faith
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Nov 7, 2015 00:40
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ozmunkeh posted:I think I've found the issue. Prosecutors in the US have proven themselves time and time again to be mostly subhuman filth. I'd be amazed if this went beyond news reports of "a grand jury failed to indict". The more likely scenario is the departments colluding to charge the father with the murder of his son. If he's acting in bad faith, none of this matters and they'll get off without being charged regardless of anything, and it's all moot. The only way anything happens is if he's not a total piece of poo poo. So the only interesting difference in this discussion is if he's not a piece of poo poo.
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Nov 7, 2015 00:44
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Trabisnikof posted:Ok buddy, you've made your opinion very clear, but I'm going to keep pointing out that the police in this situation got treated better than security guards/stand-your-grounders/etc would in a situation like this. I don't have data to back up this claim, but I'm still going to stand by it because it is still true. I realize it doesn't pass muster for you, I disagree that it doesn't pass muster for anyone. You're literally just making poo poo up
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Nov 7, 2015 01:20
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Okay guys, I have an idea. A cop is allowed to shoot their gun one time in their career. If they shoot their gun a second time they get 5 years in prison and they can never be a cop again. I think I just solved the problem, no need to argue any further.
Internet Explorer fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Nov 7, 2015 |
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Nov 7, 2015 02:29
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in which black lives don't matter
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Nov 7, 2015 03:08
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Two of the officers in the Marksville shooting have been arrested. That's something, I suppose. At least they'll be temporarily inconvenienced for murdering a child before a stacked jury acquits them/repeatedly mistrials and they're reinstated with full back pay.
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Nov 7, 2015 05:32
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I know why it still exists, but the Garrity rule with LEOBORs in a post-Salinas world is so incredibly absurd.
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Nov 7, 2015 05:36
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Here we go:quote:Edmonson declined to discuss specifics of the State Police investigation, which he reiterated was both "complex" and ongoing. Detectives are still working to sort out how many shots were fired, and from which guns. Edmonson said authorities were able to review body camera footage from the shooting.
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Nov 7, 2015 05:46
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jfood posted:I know why it still exists, but the Garrity rule with LEOBORs in a post-Salinas world is so incredibly absurd. As much as I think the Salinas decision is hosed up, I don't think it is relevant to Garrity. Garrity holds that the government can't force its employees to file a report which would incriminate them. Salinas holds that your silence can be used against you. The department can't make the officers talk, but the prosecution can bring up their unwillingness to talk at trial, a criminal rather than administrative proceeding. (IANAL) Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 06:08 on Nov 7, 2015 |
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Nov 7, 2015 06:05
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https://www.facebook.com/OccupyDemocrats/videos/993521460740908/ Walking while black. All of this poo poo for Jaywalking.
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Nov 7, 2015 06:52
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Mandy Thompson posted:https://www.facebook.com/OccupyDemocrats/videos/993521460740908/ Here's an article about that: http://www.kvue.com/story/news/local/2015/11/06/man-in-video-of-apd-arrest-downtown-speaks-to-kvue/75338332/
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Nov 7, 2015 06:58
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Dead Reckoning posted:As much as I think the Salinas decision is hosed up, I don't think it is relevant to Garrity. Garrity holds that the government can't force its employees to file a report which would incriminate them. Salinas holds that your silence can be used against you. The department can't make the officers talk, but the prosecution can bring up their unwillingness to talk at trial, a criminal rather than administrative proceeding. (IANAL) Salinas is way, way, more narrow then that and would not apply here.
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Nov 7, 2015 07:02
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True, I over-simplified.
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Nov 7, 2015 07:08
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Mandy Thompson posted:https://www.facebook.com/OccupyDemocrats/videos/993521460740908/ This is absolutely disgusting.
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Nov 7, 2015 07:25
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The cops, instead of taking a guy down for jaywalking, choose to repeatedly punch him in the back of the head. I guess the 6 to 2 ratio of cops:people means they have to start rabbit punching people.
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Nov 7, 2015 10:17
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Life in prison on drug charges, cool. Prosecutor sounds like an enormous rear end in a top hat.
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Nov 7, 2015 11:29
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Terraplane posted:Two of the officers in the Marksville shooting have been arrested. That's something, I suppose. At least they'll be temporarily inconvenienced for murdering a child before a stacked jury acquits them/repeatedly mistrials and they're reinstated with full back pay. I'm glad these two officers have been charged with murder/attempted murder.
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Nov 7, 2015 11:57
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Terraplane posted:Two of the officers in the Marksville shooting have been arrested. That's something, I suppose. At least they'll be temporarily inconvenienced for murdering a child before a stacked jury acquits them/repeatedly mistrials and they're reinstated with full back pay. I'm highly doubtful that this arrest would have happened were it not for #blacklivesmatter.
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Nov 7, 2015 13:51
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:I'm highly doubtful that this arrest would have happened were it not for #blacklivesmatter. Or bodycams. It's fantastic that bodycam footage is finally being used against a officer.
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Nov 7, 2015 14:22
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Terraplane posted:Two of the officers in the Marksville shooting have been arrested. That's something, I suppose. At least they'll be temporarily inconvenienced for murdering a child before a stacked jury acquits them/repeatedly mistrials and they're reinstated with full back pay. I posted a link to this story and the first response I got was "the father is culpable as well". From what I understand the Father had a personal issue with one of the Marshalls, was unarmed, and the whole "put it in reverse to ram us" narrative was totally false right?
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Nov 7, 2015 17:08
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SalTheBard posted:I posted a link to this story and the first response I got was "the father is culpable as well". From what I understand the Father had a personal issue with one of the Marshalls, was unarmed, and the whole "put it in reverse to ram us" narrative was totally false right? It was. According to the state police, no warrant was present for Few and the crime scene indicates that Few didn't appear to be backing up toward the officers.
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Nov 7, 2015 17:12
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Cops probably already cried about Tarantino because of that one scene in Reservoir Dogs. They have surely incorporated that scene into their hazy concept of the dangers police face in real life.
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Nov 7, 2015 17:31
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And I'm out of this thread again.
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Nov 7, 2015 17:49
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Dead Reckoning posted:You are all wrong about his though. Charging someone with a crime is often a strategic decision on the part of the prosecutor. Just off the top of my head, Renisha McBride's killer (who was not not a police officer) was not arrested or charged until shortly before his trial. People were foaming about it at the time, using the exact same arguments except replace "is a cop" with "killed a white person." It turns out that prosecutors have no reason to start the speedy trial clock unless they are ready to file charges. In a domestic homicide with a smoking gun, it is much easier to assemble an unimpeachable case than it is in cases where self-defense or color of law can be raised as defenses. You found an outlier, gold star for you! Now let's see if we can spot the differences. On one hand you had someone who had a self defense excuse that at least luckily fell apart. On its face old white man woken up by possibly drunk black person in the middle of the night is plausible enough to investigate before deciding to charge. Then we have either one cop who emptied two clips or two cops emptying their clips into a car with a child while serving a warrant that the clerk of courts says doesn't exist. Then it was an exchange of gunfire but oops, no weapon. Then he 'tried to run them down' but oops, you shot into the driver side window so how could he be trying to run you down? So we're already at three lies. So flimsy but believable on its face self defense vs multiple lying by a cop as to why he had to shoot a child. Yes, totally comparable situations. Yes, there exist cases where if the killer has a plausible defense they may hold off arresting them. To even pretend that the rest of the time they roll up to someone who killed a kid and critically wounded the father that they wouldn't be cuffed that instant is dishonest even for you. Maybe not instantly in this case when he lied about the exchange of gunfire but when no weapon or any evidence of returned fire was found? loving please. They'd have have half the PD surrounding his house the second they found out he lied repeatedly if he wasn't a cop. Not that you'll address this but the outrage is that cops do not get treated the same way in identical situations. McBrides murderer had nothing to do with being a cop, he had a believable at the time feared for his life defense. If a process server did what these fuckers did he'd have been in the back of a car in cuffs within 2 minutes. Even if they didn't charge him that day he'd sure as poo poo still be taken in for the 48 or whatever hours they can hold you. Good luck keeping your job because you're in jail while they decide whether to charge you with murdering a 6 years old today or next week. Treat cops like non cops and maybe people will calm down?
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Nov 8, 2015 16:33
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Dead Reckoning posted:You are all wrong about his though. Charging someone with a crime is often a strategic decision on the part of the prosecutor. Just off the top of my head, Renisha McBride's killer (who was not not a police officer) was not arrested or charged until shortly before his trial. People were foaming about it at the time, using the exact same arguments except replace "is a cop" with "killed a white person." It turns out that prosecutors have no reason to start the speedy trial clock unless they are ready to file charges. In a domestic homicide with a smoking gun, it is much easier to assemble an unimpeachable case than it is in cases where self-defense or color of law can be raised as defenses. They really foamed huh, like wild beasts.
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Nov 8, 2015 16:35
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Here's the horrifying account of the shooting of Idaho rancher Jack Yantis. A car hit his bull and he was called by the Sheriff's Office to go deal with it. He arrived to a bullet riddled but still living bull, as the officers had tried to put it down but were apparently too inept to actually kill the creature and at some point they gave up trying. He got his rifle and went to kill the bull (which is, according to the account, something he's done before) but just before he shot an officer grabbed his shoulder and spun him around. The natural motion of this movement would obviously and necessarily lead to a man pointing a gun suddenly pointing said gun in the general direction of the police, and so the officers opened fire on him. His wife, a 62 year old woman, tried to help him so obviously they forced her down in the middle of the street and cuffed her. She then had a heart attack. The bullet riddled bull slowly suffocated on its own blood over the course of the next couple of hours. 
Terraplane fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Nov 8, 2015 |
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Nov 8, 2015 17:29
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Hmm, I remember that story getting spun as "Cliven Bundy-type rancher gets in shootout with police over bull." I should have known.
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Nov 8, 2015 17:35
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Terraplane posted:Here's the horrifying account of the shooting of Idaho rancher Jack Yantis. A car hit his bull and he was called by the Sheriff's Office to go deal with it. He arrived to a bullet riddled but still living bull, as the officers had tried to put it down but were apparently too inept to actually kill the creature and at some point they gave up trying. He got his rifle and went to kill the bull (which is, according to the account, something he's done before) but just before he shot an officer grabbed his shoulder and spun him around. The natural motion of this movement would obviously and necessarily lead to a man pointing a gun suddenly pointing said gun in the general direction of the police, and so the officers opened fire on him. His wife, a 62 year old woman, tried to help him so obviously they forced her down in the middle of the street and cuffed her. She then had a heart attack. The bullet riddled bull slowly suffocated on its own blood over the course of the next couple of hours. Oh poo poo, that's my uncle's neighbor. Never met him but my uncle's been talking about this for a week now.
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Nov 8, 2015 18:18
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There's a nice gymnastics display in the comments where a dude blames bad cops on liberals driving good people away from the profession with criticism.
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Nov 8, 2015 19:09
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Man what is with Austin and jaywalking, isn't that the city where that girl was jogging and they dragged her away for not having her ID, and then the chief of police said she was lucky he wasn't there because he'd have raped her? edit: Yup, found it :  pathetic little tramp fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Nov 8, 2015 |
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Nov 8, 2015 23:20
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pathetic little tramp posted:Man what is with Austin and jaywalking, isn't that the city where that girl was jogging and they dragged her away for not having her ID, and then the chief of police said she was lucky he wasn't there because he'd have raped her? You, um, do see the ellipsis, right?
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Nov 9, 2015 00:19
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Discendo Vox posted:You, um, do see the ellipsis, right? Why let the truth get in the way of an inflammatory interpretation?
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Nov 9, 2015 00:42
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