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Xenomrph posted:It really isn't, at least not in the same way Terminator/T2 is. The Powerload fight is paralleled by the spacesuit scene. However beyond the obvious context differences the major change there is that Ripley is not terrified and afraid and stripped down to her underthings but confident and capable of facing the literal personification of her fears. She is repeating something she did before but in a different way. The Hive Ambush is the death of Brett. The alien is hidden within the hive and emerges in secret. There is even a marine who is grabbed from behind and yanked upwards. However again this is a case where the context changes the tone. Beyond the fact that it is massively different in scale and tone, Ripley is aware of what is going on. The entire scene from the entry into the hive to chestburster emerging to Ripley busting in is effectively her reliving Alien in fast forward. What changes is that Ripley charges in and subverts it. It is supposed to parallel that but the fact that Ripley changes it is important to the story. Dallas is actually paralleled by Bishop going into the vents, but like everything else it's thematically different. He survives and is in fact proof to Ripley that just because something happened once it doesn't happen again. (Bishop turns out to be trustworthy and is not killed when he goes alone into the vents. The death of Dallas was not an inevitable cycle but just a thing that happened.) This is also why "Ripley's life is all about the Alien' is stupid because even when Ripley is facing the Alien again the plot specifically emphasizes that she is not repeating the same story and she doesn't have to. However that sort of is the point. You can draw parallels but that is intentional. You're supposed to draw parallels. Aliens is a nightmare version of an already nightmarish event. It doesn't mean the plot structure is identical except in broad strokes. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Nov 6, 2015 |
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Nov 6, 2015 20:59
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I feel you put a lot more thought into finding parallels that Cameron did into actually writing the movie.
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Nov 6, 2015 21:01
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oldpainless posted:I feel you put a lot more thought into finding parallels that Cameron did into actually writing the movie. ImpAtom posted:The Powerload fight is paralleled by the spacesuit scene. However beyond the obvious context differences the major change there is that Ripley is not terrified and afraid and stripped down to her underthings but confident and capable of facing the literal personification of her fears. She is repeating something she did before but in a different way. It's a far cry from T1/T2, where the repeating story beats are the point.
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Nov 6, 2015 21:05
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oldpainless posted:I feel you put a lot more thought into finding parallels that Cameron did into actually writing the movie. I doubt it. Even if I didn't have the exact same thought process as him there's a lot of care and effort put into tiny details in Aliens, he probably put more thought into tiny poo poo than anyone on the internet can!
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Nov 6, 2015 21:05
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I just saw Aliens for the first time ever even though I've seen Alien a few times. I've never seen the next 2 sequels but I've read their synopsis. Why after all the poo poo Ripley goes through to protect Newt and bond with her did the writers decide to unceremoniously murder her at the start of the 3rd movie?
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Nov 6, 2015 22:43
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:I just saw Aliens for the first time ever even though I've seen Alien a few times. I've never seen the next 2 sequels but I've read their synopsis. Why after all the poo poo Ripley goes through to protect Newt and bond with her did the writers decide to unceremoniously murder her at the start of the 3rd movie? Space is a horrible lovely unforgiving place. She then needs to personally do an autopsy on Newt afterwards. poo poo is hosed up, no happy endings in the alien franchise. Watch 3, make sure it's the assembly cut as the thread title says.
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Nov 6, 2015 22:49
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:I just saw Aliens for the first time ever even though I've seen Alien a few times. I've never seen the next 2 sequels but I've read their synopsis. Why after all the poo poo Ripley goes through to protect Newt and bond with her did the writers decide to unceremoniously murder her at the start of the 3rd movie? From a thematic perspective: It is because Alien 3 is a largely nihilistic film. This isn't an inherently negative or positive trait it just is. It is one of the rare films I can think of where the ending unambiguously states that suicide is the answer to emotional trauma because you'll never be able to escape it. In order to foster this mood Ripley has to lose the safety and comfort she gained at the end of Aliens and be thrust into a situation where she has lost everything. From a writing perspective: Because it gives a good excuse to throw Ripley back into an uncomfortable unfamiliar situation with no assistance or help and to foreshadow her eventual death as well. It also minimized the number of actors they had to hire back. (Though Hicks' actor got the last laugh there IIRC.)
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Nov 6, 2015 22:50
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Yes, Michael Biehn famously got more money for Alien 3 using a grainy, low-res monochrome headshot of him than he did for starring in Aliens. I don't remember which of the story iterations that Hicks/Newt first die in. They are very much in the Gibson script. I guess it must have been the Vincent Ward wooden planet but I thought she was alone when she landed in that one.
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Nov 6, 2015 23:07
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ImpAtom posted:From a thematic perspective:
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Nov 6, 2015 23:24
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Ripley died for our greedy corporate sins. One day the kingdom of god will be established and we will all live in peaceful space socialism with zero corporate machinations.
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Nov 6, 2015 23:35
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"What does the powerloader fight correspond to in 'Alien'?" Ripley putting on the space-suit and turning the shuttle itself into a weapon "What scene in Alien parallels the hive ambush? What scene in Aliens parallels [...] Brett looking for the cat and getting mugged?" You just answered your own question. "What scene in Aliens parallels Dallas' happy jaunt in the airvent[?]" The siege, after the power is cut.
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Nov 6, 2015 23:42
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Xenomrph posted:She isn't killing herself to escape her problems, she's sacrificing herself to kill the Alien Queen inside her and, by extension, save humanity. Thematically it plays into the religion angle, Ripley dies to save humanity from its sins. She even does the spread eagle crucifixion pose when she initially falls backward into the furnace. The Alien is a symbolic creature. It always has been. She is literally killing herself to destroy the alien queen but what is the alien queen in terms of the film's themes? I mean Alien 3 is not very subtle. It is a film where she is the only woman in a prison full of men who are then symbolically overcome by a penis monster. Religion is certainly an aspect of it but not the only one. If anything I'd argue it has pretty nasty things to say about religion too. Remember that in the original version of the film the Chestburster emerges from her and she literally holds it to her, with imagery implying strangling it, as she falls into the fire. I mean there is Christ imagery for certain but it is twisted and inverted. It is an image of a horrific virgin birth being strangled as the mother falls into the fires of hell.
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Nov 6, 2015 23:43
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:I just saw Aliens for the first time ever even though I've seen Alien a few times. I've never seen the next 2 sequels but I've read their synopsis. Why after all the poo poo Ripley goes through to protect Newt and bond with her did the writers decide to unceremoniously murder her at the start of the 3rd movie? Michael Beihn got paid the same amount of money for the low resolution digital picture of him shown for like one second in Alien 3's theatrical opening credits as he got paid to have a major role in Aliens. 
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Nov 6, 2015 23:52
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ImpAtom posted:The Alien is a symbolic creature. It always has been. She is literally killing herself to destroy the alien queen but what is the alien queen in terms of the film's themes? I mean Alien 3 is not very subtle. It is a film where she is the only woman in a prison full of men who are then symbolically overcome by a penis monster. Religion is certainly an aspect of it but not the only one. If anything I'd argue it has pretty nasty things to say about religion too. Remember that in the original version of the film the Chestburster emerges from her and she literally holds it to her, with imagery implying strangling it, as she falls into the fire. And just like with Jesus, the sacrifice is meaningless, because mankind still continues to sin and destroy itself even after his sacrifice. So is it with Ripley, because the Company outlives her sacrifice, and will surely find new ways to cause misery and suffering, etc. But none of that is a message of "the world sucks and you can't do anything about it, best kill yourself to escape" like you were suggesting before. Ripley briefly considers selfish suicide when she asks Dillon to kill her with the axe, but he convinced her that a more meaningful death would be to eliminate the Alien (both the adult, and the baby inside her) and save humanity before she checks out. SuperMechagodzilla posted:"What does the powerloader fight correspond to in 'Alien'?"
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Nov 6, 2015 23:58
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Xenomrph posted:And just like with Jesus, the sacrifice is meaningless, because mankind still continues to sin and destroy itself even after his sacrifice. If I were you I'd stick with film criticism.
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Nov 7, 2015 04:45
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Alien, 5 letters. Jesus, five letters. COINCIDENCE?!?!
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Nov 7, 2015 04:48
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Schwarzwald posted:If I were you I'd stick with film criticism. 
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Nov 7, 2015 04:49
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Lurdiak posted:There's no reason to assume they can't have such discussions in their own language. Xenomrph posted:And just like with Jesus, the sacrifice is meaningless, because mankind still continues to sin and destroy itself even after his sacrifice. I bet you two look even more autistic IRL than the Newborn did in Alien Resurrection. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 7, 2015 05:57
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autistic people don't look like dripping skeletons with huge digitally erased dicks though.
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Nov 7, 2015 06:30
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I just watched Prometheus with an open and accepting mind and an attempt to explain or give the benefit of the doubt to every stupid or odd thing that happens in the movie. It's not great. It's pretty, lots of it are good, but overall it's not a great film. A lot of people's complaints are nit-picking, or have potential explanations, or are actually fairly obviously explained in the actual movie, but there's still so much left that is just... very questionable. It's no Alien 3.
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Nov 7, 2015 07:39
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Baronjutter posted:I just watched Prometheus with an open and accepting mind and an attempt to explain or give the benefit of the doubt to every stupid or odd thing that happens in the movie. It's not great. It's pretty, lots of it are good, but overall it's not a great film. A lot of people's complaints are nit-picking, or have potential explanations, or are actually fairly obviously explained in the actual movie, but there's still so much left that is just... very questionable. I know right, alien 3 was good.
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Nov 7, 2015 08:37
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CelticPredator posted:autistic people don't look like dripping skeletons with huge digitally erased dicks though.  For those who don't know what we're talking about, here's an image of the original Newborn prop.
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Nov 7, 2015 16:37
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Baronjutter posted:I just watched Prometheus with an open and accepting mind and an attempt to explain or give the benefit of the doubt to every stupid or odd thing that happens in the movie. It's not great. It's pretty, lots of it are good, but overall it's not a great film. A lot of people's complaints are nit-picking, or have potential explanations, or are actually fairly obviously explained in the actual movie, but there's still so much left that is just... very questionable. On the contrary, I felt it's excellent cinematography, ambition and interesting themes and subtext more than made up for it's alleged shortcomings. A lot of the complaints about Prometheus come from dullards who probably hold directors like Joss Whedon in high regard.
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Nov 7, 2015 18:19
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Prometheus. People went in expecting a good movie but got a poo poo movie. Woah, genius filmaking. Please make more lovely movies for SMG, Hollywood.
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Nov 7, 2015 18:23
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I wasn't paying much attention to the internet reaction when Prometheus came out but was it always such a lightning rod for simps like the person above?
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Nov 7, 2015 18:37
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Yaws posted:I wasn't paying much attention to the internet reaction when Prometheus came out but was it always such a lightning rod for simps like the person above?
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Nov 7, 2015 18:46
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Yaws posted:On the contrary, I felt it's excellent cinematography, ambition and interesting themes and subtext more than made up for it's alleged shortcomings. A lot of the complaints about Prometheus come from dullards who probably hold directors like Joss Whedon in high regard. Yaws posted:I wasn't paying much attention to the internet reaction when Prometheus came out but was it always such a lightning rod for simps like the person above? I have no idea if you're serious or not.
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Nov 7, 2015 18:50
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Yaws posted:A lot of the complaints about Prometheus come from dullards who probably hold directors like Joss Whedon in high regard. The complaints I notice come from people who like Ridley Scott. GRINDCORE MEGGIDO fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Nov 7, 2015 |
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Nov 7, 2015 20:07
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Everything that's great about a typical Ridley Scott film is there in Prometheus, its got his fingerprints all over it.
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Nov 7, 2015 20:30
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Xenomrph posted:God I totally forgot that they removed that from the Newborn's original design. Good God.
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Nov 7, 2015 22:04
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Prometheus raises a ton of questions, and if you give Scott the benefit of the doubt that a lot of the strange things that don't seem logical or make sense could be explained and are actually on purpose not just bad writing it's not a terrible movie. I'm just so used to things like Lost or BSG or countless other movies and TV shows where the sense of mystery and "what the gently caress" is just cheap bad writing rather than an actual thought out and cool mystery. But even giving all the things in the movie that don't make sense the absolute maximum benefit of the doubt I think the movie still had a lot of flaws and poor choices that added nothing to the movie. I'm still glad I saw it and enjoyed it. I usually get REALLY ANGRY and shout at the screen when characters are not acting in their best interests or doing something unbelievably dumb, but other than a couple scenes everyone's dumbness seemed a believable part of their dumb characters rather than poor writing. It's not like you need to listen to the director's commentary special edition and read script notes to learn the crew are not the best of the best, they're the absolute dregs of their field. The movie is very explicit in that fact. Theron's character didn't believe in the mission, she was just going through the motions to fulfill her obligations to her father with horrible makeup. David put the black poo poo in excited idiot's coffee because Bad Makeup told him too. He's a desperate crazy old man who doesn't have time for weeks or months worth of testing, he wants David to see what this poo poo does to a human. Does it make people immortal? Does it kill them? Could it unlock any secrets that might give him more life or a better makeup budget? It makes perfect sense to me anyways, David's just following orders. Why he needed to pretend to be dead though I have no idea. Why couldn't he have led the mission him self and given it a bigger budget and a better crew? No time? Would create a scandal back home? People were trying to kill him? Weyland could have been expanded on, as could his daughter and their relationship. My problems with Prometheus isn't that it was a bad movie, it just could have been a much much better movie. I also found Shaw mildly annoying but mostly boring. Such a big deal is made out of her being a christian and believing in things. Also why didn't she tell anyone about her squid baby or her suspicions that David had something to do with it or seemed to know about it??? I guess the pain drugs made her hosed up for the rest of the movie. Also maybe I missed something but why was the huge expensive auto-doc machine set up only for men, why does it even have gender configurations? Could it not fit a female medical database on the 500mb USB stick it has for a hard drive or something? Also isn't it the private medical bay for a woman?? I feel like I must have missed something important here because otherwise it doesn't make any sense at all.
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Nov 7, 2015 22:31
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MrMojok posted:Good God. It was never implemented on the actual creature but in the script a flowing but veiny and gross head of long hair with blood visibly flowing and pulsing through it adorns it also.
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Nov 7, 2015 22:35
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The autodoc was specifically for Weyland but his presence on the ship was a secret, so they said it was for Vickers.
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Nov 7, 2015 22:40
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Am I the only one who wasn't bothered by Weyland's makeup? It seems to be a common complaint. He has obviously gone through every anti-aging technique known to future mankind so of course he looks unnatural.
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Nov 7, 2015 22:48
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Baronjutter posted:Why he needed to pretend to be dead though I have no idea. FutureSteveJobs would rather run off to pursue this quackery in secret than tarnish his legacy by revealing that his is not, in fact, the capitalist TED-talking messiah (from the movie's prerelease special features), but rather is just a desperate old tycoon jealously clinging to life.
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Nov 7, 2015 23:52
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Yaws posted:A lot of the complaints about Prometheus come from dullards who probably hold directors like Joss Whedon in high regard. Basebf555 posted:Everything that's great about a typical Ridley Scott film is there in Prometheus, its got his fingerprints all over it. Like, Ridley Scott's movies have a pretty wide range (and it's not like he has a perfect track record), so I can see why people might have certain expectations that aren't met. Like, the movie was advertised as Alien 0, but then didn't have a lot of the things people latched onto from 'Alien' (and I don't even mean the creature itself). 'Alien' is, aside from Ash, 100% blue-collar pragmatic working-class people and while Prometheus does have a couple of those (Janek and his 2 copilots) and otherwise interesting characters (David, Vickers), it's also plagued by a lot of redshirts. 'Alien' also had this very tactile, lived-in aesthetic, and Prometheus is a little too shiny, clean, new, and CGI-polished (even the Engineer ship, tech, suits, etc, when compared to the Derelict and Space Jockey from 'Alien'). It isn't just a complaint of "it's different from 'Alien' and that's bad!", because that isn't the case. It's different from Ridley Scott's other sci-fi masterpiece Blade Runner as well, which has a similar tactile, lived-in feel, and at no point do any of the characters in Blade Runner feel like redshirts just there to crank up the body count, and the characters have an interesting depth and range that just isn't there in Prometheus outside of a couple characters. Even people like the noodle chef or the "eye doctor" feel like organic parts of the world in ways that the Prometheus side characters don't. So when Prometheus is billed as "Ridley Scott's triumphant return to sci-fi!", I can understand when people might read that as "Ridley Scott's triumphant return to sci-fi... of the same filmmaking style and caliber as 'Alien' and 'Blade Runner'", and it very clearly isn't. That isn't necessarily a bad thing on Prometheus' part, and it's probably not fair to the movie on its own merits, but I completely understand it even if I don't entirely agree with it. It really doesn't do Prometheus any favors when it was advertised as Alien 0, that just begs for people to make such comparisons rather than engage the filmmaking on its own terms. It's just another reason why I wish Prometheus had severed all ties with 'Alien' and tried to do its own thing, I think it would have had a better chance to make its own identity.
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Nov 8, 2015 01:13
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Yaws posted:On the contrary, I felt it's excellent cinematography, ambition and interesting themes and subtext more than made up for it's alleged shortcomings. A lot of the complaints about Prometheus come from dullards who probably hold directors like Joss Whedon in high regard. You just used the word dullard unironically.
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Nov 8, 2015 01:15
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Party Boat posted:The autodoc was specifically for Weyland but his presence on the ship was a secret, so they said it was for Vickers. I'll buy it. Still seems weird that it even needs to be exclusively configured. Why not just include both databases or what ever? But wasn't Vickers in the dark about her father being onboard as well? He seemed surprised to see her personally there. If she was in the dark wouldn't she have noticed her personal medical machine not set for her half the population? And I guess he looks so hosed up and fake because he's "had work". I'll buy that too. Horrible over-use of plastic surgery ends up making a person look like they're wearing terrible makeup.
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Nov 8, 2015 01:20
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No one seems to talk that they also snuck in an entire security team for weyland. And his plan was to train a robot to speak languages to talk to aliens.
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Nov 8, 2015 02:24
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Baronjutter posted:But wasn't Vickers in the dark about her father being onboard as well? He seemed surprised to see her personally there. If she was in the dark wouldn't she have noticed her personal medical machine not set for her half the population? Vickers definitely knew he was on board; we don't get the "try harder" scene otherwise. Weyland knew that someone from the company would be there to assist David and himself. He didn't expect it to be her because she was one of the biggest detractors of his plans in the first place. Tenzarin posted:No one seems to talk that they also snuck in an entire security team for weyland. And his plan was to train a robot to speak languages to talk to aliens. Was the security team snuck on? They suited up with the rest of the crew during the initial expedition, and only one of them went with Weyland to see the Engineer. They're no more there for Weyland than anybody else is.
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Nov 8, 2015 03:15
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