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Giving guard to the blitzers is inefficient. Best to have guard/stand firm on the strongest players so they get the enemy team blocks. A 3 str player with guard is not that scary because you can hit that player first with a 4 str player and get 2 dice.
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Nov 9, 2015 02:58
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Hryme posted:A 3 str player with guard is not that scary because you can hit that player first with a 4 str player and get 2 dice. no player with guard is 'scary', guard is not 'scary' in and of itself. guard is most effective when more people have it, which is precisely why orcs are a grand punching team until claws start coming out; their skill access and starting skill distribution means that on most TVs, they will have more guard than the other guy. and when compared to lizards it's a LOT more.
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Nov 9, 2015 03:04
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Orks can also attempt the throwing game if you really fancy it. If you get stuck against a team you can't outbash you have a chance of at least throwing a decent pass.
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Nov 9, 2015 03:05
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Hryme posted:Well the problem with Orcs is that if you get outbashed you don't really have that many more options. So when I meet a team that is stronger than me the games usually become a huge struggle. Examples are Lizardmen with Kroxigor and Chaos with the Minotaur. Thats why I like to have a troll with guard in addition to my 4 black orcs with guard so there is very few teams that is stronger. The troll basically is there to give assists and he is always the last one to block, and in many turns there is no targets left for him to block when the rest of the team is done. I have tried running orc teams without the troll quite a few times, but getting outbashed as Orcs is really not something I enjoy. You are backwards, if you are playing against a big guy you just mark it with a skillless 50k lineman and then go back to whatever you are doing (even better one with block and watch his big guy get hosed). If you are getting out-bashed because of a big guy then you need to try a different approach. Your orc lineman also has a great path to advancement and is going to live forever with AV9 and a block/guard lineman is waaayyyy less TV than a troll, which also happens to be the worst of the bad big guys. Washout fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Nov 9, 2015 |
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Nov 9, 2015 03:06
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I guess you are correct. Still some players need tackle and mighty blow as their first two skills. With no tackle on the team losses against elves/skaven are very hard to avoid.
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Nov 9, 2015 03:07
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So when I said that it can't just be that Big Guys are defined by being poo poo, I guess I was wrong - Big Guys that aren't poo poo (due to lack of Bonehead, Wild Animal et al) aren't Big Guys, they're good players.Coolguye posted:no player with guard is 'scary', guard is not 'scary' in and of itself. guard is most effective when more people have it, which is precisely why orcs are a grand punching team until claws start coming out; their skill access and starting skill distribution means that on most TVs, they will have more guard than the other guy. and when compared to lizards it's a LOT more. The way I see Guard is similar to Shadowing and Diving Tackle, in that it's at its most potent when your opponent forgets who has it. Now, it's not as noticeable as with Shadowing and Diving Tackle, but there are some moments where you've got like five Guard players in a big clusterfuck, and your opponent tries to set up a punching chain, and then all of a sudden it turns out that the 2DB he thought he had is actually a 1DB because he forgot about that one Guard player in the middle of the clusterfuck, and he can't get to him because there's other players with Guard around him and it all turns into a big mess for him. To that end, having a lot of Guard on your team is a good idea if you're the punchy type, because it can make your punching so much easier and their punching so much harder. Then you get Stand Firm and it's even more annoying.
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Nov 9, 2015 03:12
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Hryme posted:I guess you are correct. Still some players need tackle and mighty blow as their first two skills. With no tackle on the team losses against elves/skaven are very hard to avoid. Nah, do the 2/1 grind. If they go first, let them score early and then punch them as much as you can, before running it in as late as it is safe to. 2nd half just apply step two. If you get the ball first its just the above in reverse. dogstile fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Nov 9, 2015 |
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Nov 9, 2015 03:13
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Hmm. so you are saying you are able to do that almost every match against a competent elf team that screens well in columns of 2? A good elf player will not score fast but wait until he has to because of pressure on the ball carrier. You make it sound like it is a formality.
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Nov 9, 2015 03:20
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I posted a game where I did that on this very thread. It happened on the last page. And yes, I do this regularly. Occasionally the dice don't roll my way and I can't keep the ball covered, occasionally every punch I throw kills an elf, its the way of the game.
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Nov 9, 2015 03:22
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I have done it too, doesn't mean I would recommend getting no tackle on a team because "just doing the 2-1 grind" is a great plan.
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Nov 9, 2015 03:23
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Hryme posted:I guess you are correct. Still some players need tackle and mighty blow as their first two skills. With no tackle on the team losses against elves/skaven are very hard to avoid. Tackle/frenzy on the blitzers, lineman all should probably get block/guard, not fast enough to blitz and catch elves. If you are playing against someone who lets you punch all his elves with your extra tackle all over the place then he's a bad and you didn't need the extra tackle in the first place. Washout fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Nov 9, 2015 |
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Nov 9, 2015 03:24
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Hryme posted:I have done it too, doesn't mean I would recommend getting no tackle on a team because "just doing the 2-1 grind" is a great plan. I'd actually recommend skipping the mighty blow for some utility skills. You seem like you're really focused on the "bash them dead" side, which won't always work. E: In fact, it seems like you want a team that will outbash everyone yet still able to catch elves. This isn't going to happen at all. dogstile fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Nov 9, 2015 |
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Nov 9, 2015 03:25
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Washout posted:Tackle/frenzy on the blitzers, lineman all should probably get block/guard, not fast enough to blitz and catch elves neway. LInemen need double for guard
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Nov 9, 2015 03:26
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Hryme posted:LInemen need double for guard I still don't like taking a lot of tackle. I prefer one or two and a few frenzy instead. But yeah totally right. If I was going to develop a hyper TV efficient orc team for an open league I'd want to maximize the amount of guard asap, I'd make one blitzer dedicated to killing elves with tackle/frenzy/MB, but the rest would get guard first and the blorcs would all get guard second after block. Then you can spread out with a few more utility skills later and start picking up MB and PO. Maybe get one more block/tackle/frenzy lineorc for emergencies, but you need all the guard you can get, especially in an open league where you are a lot less likely to face fragile teams and your specialized elf killer will get a lot of work done. In this kind of case you don't even want a thrower or you fire the thrower once you are able to give a lineorc leader instead but that's pretty inefficient too. Washout fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Nov 9, 2015 |
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Nov 9, 2015 03:29
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I only take 2 blitzers with tackle. And I like stand firm a lot, probably more than what is really wise so I tend to have stand firm as an early skill on all my blitzers. I would normally not consider guard on blitzers before the 3rd skill, which is why I like to include the Troll. But I can see that my way of doing that is maybe not the best way.
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Nov 9, 2015 03:35
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Hryme posted:I only take 2 blitzers with tackle. And I like stand firm a lot, probably more than what is really wise so I tend to have stand firm as an early skill on all my blitzers. I would normally not consider guard on blitzers before the 3rd skill, which is why I like to include the Troll. But I can see that my way of doing that is maybe not the best way. I'd take stand firm on a block/dodge/guard dude but probably not in any other circumstance. It's probably the whole reason you are having problems. But hey my favorite team I ever saw was a gimmick lizard team called "the shadowing" even his krox had shadow. An orc team named "don't back down" with shitloads of stand firm would be amazing tho.
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Nov 9, 2015 03:42
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i actually like block -> frenzy on blorcs. blorcs have poo poo MA so they're not gonna move much beyond blocking, might as well give them frenzy so they can shove their way into the middle of a fight. it's where they belong anyway.
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Nov 9, 2015 03:43
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Coolguye posted:i actually like block -> frenzy on blorcs. blorcs have poo poo MA so they're not gonna move much beyond blocking, might as well give them frenzy so they can shove their way into the middle of a fight. it's where they belong anyway. It's taken as a 5th or 6th skill on them generally (either before or after pro or tackle depending), if you are doing it before block/guard/mb/po then uhhhh. Although you might make a case for building one as block/guard/stand firm/frenzy, but that seems pretty terrible in my eyes when you could have block/guard/mb/po instead. If I got +STR on any orc I'd probably give it frenzy next level up though. Washout fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Nov 9, 2015 |
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Nov 9, 2015 03:48
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Btw i take guard before block on the black orcs. Their job and the trolls job is to be assist machines. I would not wait until the 2nd skill to get guards on the black orcs because that would take forever. In that case I would have to have guard on one or two of my blitzers early. Anyway I think this is mosty a difference in preference. I think the trolls unreliability is acceptable for the benefit of having another str 5 body on the field with guard while I guess more sane people do not.
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Nov 9, 2015 03:53
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Hryme posted:I only take 2 blitzers with tackle. And I like stand firm a lot, probably more than what is really wise so I tend to have stand firm as an early skill on all my blitzers. I would normally not consider guard on blitzers before the 3rd skill, which is why I like to include the Troll. But I can see that my way of doing that is maybe not the best way. Stand Firm is a really useful complement to Guard and amazingly obnoxious if that Guard piece is also a Blodger, but on its own it's applications are much more niche. Sure, your guy can't get pushed out of position, but if he isn't radiating negative assists with Guard then it probably doesn't matter that much. Guard is probably the most important skill in the game for winning Bash wars and being able to have eight dudes with it as their first or second skills is a big part of what makes Orcs a competitive bash team. Prioritizing Stand Firm over staple bash skills like Guard is indeed likely to be the source of many of your problems with Orcs. Hryme posted:Btw i take guard before block on the black orcs. Their job and the trolls job is to be assist machines. I would not wait until the 2nd skill to get guards on the black orcs because that would take forever. In that case I would have to have guard on one or two of my blitzers early. Anyway I think this is mosty a difference in preference. I think the trolls unreliability is acceptable for the benefit of having another str 5 body on the field with guard while I guess more sane people do not. I honestly don't like to get all tryhard  over games that were clearly meant to be played with a beer in one hand, but the issue with the Troll isn't just that he's unreliable; it's that he represents a big bloat in TV, and Orcs are a team that falls apart at high TV so paying attention to TV efficiency is something of a necessary evil. A Troll with Guard is 130k TV, which could be replaced for equal TV by a lino and then Guard on four of your other players.You probably want to get Block over Guard on your Black Orcs unless you desperately need the skill for your next match or something. Block is a stupendously good skill for anyone who plans to spend time throwing and receiving punches, and being able to throw safe 2dbs will let your Blorcs level up to their second skill much more quickly. Voyager I fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Nov 9, 2015 |
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Nov 9, 2015 03:57
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Hryme posted:Btw i take guard before block on the black orcs. Their job and the trolls job is to be assist machines. I would not wait until the 2nd skill to get guards on the black orcs because that would take forever. In that case I would have to have guard on one or two of my blitzers early. Anyway I think this is mosty a difference in preference. I think the trolls unreliability is acceptable for the benefit of having another str 5 body on the field with guard while I guess more sane people do not. Block is better. Objectively and mathematically. Guard is great but a 3 die without Block is more likely to result in failure than a 2 die with Block and being a strength 4 piece with lots of strong friends makes a 2 die block easy to get for Black Orcs. Block is the best bash skill in the game followed by Guard. Get Block before Guard and you'll probably have a much better time. Block first also helps them get casualties faster than Guard which helps them level up and solve the other problem you mention.
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Nov 9, 2015 04:06
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Dear cyanide. Please stop disabling my blitz because I tried a different move path. It's really fuckin annoying.
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Nov 9, 2015 04:19
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FoolyCharged posted:Dear cyanide. Please stop disabling my blitz because I tried a different move path. It's really fuckin annoying. All 3 games should have an undo button as long as no dice have been rolled yet for that move.
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Nov 9, 2015 04:27
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Voyager I posted:Stand Firm is a really useful complement to Guard and amazingly obnoxious if that Guard piece is also a Blodger, but on its own it's applications are much more niche. Sure, your guy can't get pushed out of position, but if he isn't radiating negative assists with Guard then it probably doesn't matter that much. Guard is probably the most important skill in the game for winning Bash wars and being able to have eight dudes with it as their first or second skills is a big part of what makes Orcs a competitive bash team. Being able to cover the sidelines with a guy with stand firm so there is no fear of him being pushed out I find to be a great strategical advantage. But getting more than two early I agree is probably overkill. EthanSteele posted:Block is better. Objectively and mathematically. Guard is great but a 3 die without Block is more likely to result in failure than a 2 die with Block and being a strength 4 piece with lots of strong friends makes a 2 die block easy to get for Black Orcs. Block is the best bash skill in the game followed by Guard. Get Block before Guard and you'll probably have a much better time. Block first also helps them get casualties faster than Guard which helps them level up and solve the other problem you mention. When you are taking your turn it is correct, however what you are underestimating is how hard it is for people to find good blocks against you in their turn when you have a frontline of high str players with guard. Especially when they have almost none themselves which often happens when I take guard first. Many teams have problems finding more than one block per turn with more than 1 die. And in many games even bashy teams take a look at my line of scrimmage consisting of 2 black orcs with guard and a troll with guard and decide it is not worth it so they avoid it. I also place one guy one step diagonally behind the line so they can't just get an extra assist by moving one more piece to the side of the line unless he has guard. Of course this is slightly risky if they get quick snap. My defensive record with orcs is very good so I do think this is a big reason for it. However I have no real scientific evidence of course. I would just like to say that I have no problems with my orc teams. It is the team I am most successful with. I have a very positive win score with all my orc teams. You guys seem to think I am losing with them which is not the case at all.
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Nov 9, 2015 04:31
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Block is also one of the best defensive skills in the game, since it removes one of the dice results that can result in your player being knocked down.
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Nov 9, 2015 05:47
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Hryme posted:Being able to cover the sidelines with a guy with stand firm so there is no fear of him being pushed out I find to be a great strategical advantage. But getting more than two early I agree is probably overkill. But do whatever you want, that's why this game is awesome. I've been playing vampires for a long time and still never have gotten one with str5, even though that's the reason I started playing them in the first place. I want my str 5 super vampire dammit! But don't think that your terrible team is good, and that build is winning you games, because it's really not, because even the average terrible BB goon like myself is miles better than those pubbies. Hell just playing optimized order of operations will probably win you 75% of your games in that open league. On defense you put the troll and two blorcs on the line? You should be putting the troll and two linemen, especially against any bash team and certainly vs. chaos. Washout fucked around with this message at 06:46 on Nov 9, 2015 |
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Nov 9, 2015 06:39
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dogstile posted:My Krox has block, gently caress the haters. My krox has + str and +av. Just need block on him then he gets to punch all other big guy, always.
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Nov 9, 2015 07:35
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I wish I could virtually Bench a player, make him unable to play and thus not count towards TV, as if he was "misses next match". That way I could already level up an additional player or try some more variations on the team. My 3 Brettonian Blitzers all hit lvl 6 today. 170+ SPP for lvl 7, that will take a while hah. Blitzer 1 : Leader/Dodge/Sure Hands/AGI/STR (4/4 Blitzer? Hell Yeah) Blitzer 2 : Dodge/Tackle/STR/Pro/??? Blitzer 3 : MV/Tackle/Frenzy/Pro/Shadowing Haven't yet decided what last General/Passing Blitzer 2 will get, not that many usefull stuff to take anyway. PS : I inflicted a -AGI injury on a Kroxi in my last game, will that put him at 0AGI or is 1 the minimum?
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Nov 9, 2015 08:31
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1 is minimum so it was basically a miss next game injury
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Nov 9, 2015 08:35
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Evernoob posted:I wish I could virtually Bench a player, make him unable to play and thus not count towards TV, as if he was "misses next match". Frenzy for sure on that dude, for even more chances to knock people over, especially with str and pro already. You could just say gently caress it and pray to nuffle and buy the 4th and play with the bloated TV. Just let nuffle sort your team out for you. Your not like amazon where it's instant death above 1500tv, you have a lot of armor and defensive skills. I learned a lot about TV bloat playing vampires and bretts seem pretty similar in a few respects, especially since you actually have a vamp player (4/4)! I don't know why you took shadowing on the +mv guy though, that is kind of weird, should have taken dodge or maybe sprint in case you roll +mv at level 7 a ottd blitzer would rule. Washout fucked around with this message at 10:09 on Nov 9, 2015 |
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Nov 9, 2015 10:01
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Washout posted:I don't know why you took shadowing on the +mv guy though, that is kind of weird, should have taken dodge or maybe sprint in case you roll +mv at level 7 a ottd blitzer would rule. I was surprised about it too, but shadowing is actually a General skill, not an Agility skill. I didn't roll a double, or I would definately have taken Dodge. I had never played with Shadowing before and as this particular blitzer is the one that never rolled a double (only a +MV) he is the first one I would fire/replace so I wanted to test it out. It's rather cool honestly. About Frenzy on my other +STR blitzer, no. Don't get me wrong, Frenzy is awesome and I use it a lot with my other Blitzer. But it is also mandatory to use and I very often find myself blocking without following up in a blitz, to change direction after. I try to protect my Blitzers and try to never end my turn with them next to a non-prone opponent.
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Nov 9, 2015 10:21
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Stand firm blodger with +str then. Also best big guy is clearly the Warpstone Troll. Get tentacles Block and Guard, tie up three linemen at the beginning of the half and then don't do anything for the rest of the half.
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Nov 9, 2015 11:08
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Unless it's Elves three linos are probably less TV than a leveled troll!
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Nov 9, 2015 11:10
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I was going to say that Tents and Guard would push the 110k Troll to 150k, aka 3 average linos, but then I noticed Tea included Block in his lups, and I guess ya, Big Guys are pretty good with Block. But lol if you can't see the advantage of tying 3 guys up with 1 guy, even if they're on TV parity.
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Nov 9, 2015 11:16
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All this talk about TV bloat of a Big Guy only actually matters in a NAF-style perpetual league. Would you on the other hand stay away from these same Big Guys in a closed league with, let's say 10 teams playing eachother twice (home-away) with a top 4 cut single elimination play-off?
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Nov 9, 2015 11:18
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Mental TV shaving matters less in closed leagues because inducements aren't as good as all that, but I would say the majority of BB played atm is Perpetual, in one way or another. In tornys, the question of Big Guys isn't of TV bloat, but having 1 guy on the pitch who you cant trust to do what he's told. If you can trust yourself not to ask him to do essential things, then problem solved!
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Nov 9, 2015 11:23
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Evernoob posted:All this talk about TV bloat of a Big Guy only actually matters in a NAF-style perpetual league. Speaking from my experience adminning the most recent Goonbowl, it's really variable. I know that Nurgle, both Lizards and Goblins all took their big guys. Norse, both Orc teams and I believe both Skaven teams didn't. Basically, on teams where your Big guy is really good (Nurgle) and on teams where your linemen are terrible at being cannon fodder (Lizards and Goblins) the Big Guy makes sense as a piece that's unlikely to be removed from the Board. Comparatively on teams where your linemen actually do work it just makes sense to get more of them and fill out your roster that way.
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Nov 9, 2015 11:35
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I consider Wild Animal less of a liability compared to Bone Headed or Really Stupid as it doesn't actually negate the Tackle Zone and Guard. As I said earlier I would definitely take Guard as a first skill for a Big Guy (unless a double is rolled for block obviously), followed by Tentacles on a Chaos Minotaur. The passive presence on the pitch can still make it a usefull player. However. I must admit I love opposing Big guys when I play my Brets, as not only I can mark them with one 40k peasant, but with Fend I also nullify their Frenzy or Follow-Up. So when I get up I even have the choice to either move away or mark them again. One game I managed to lock an enemy Rat Ogre on the side line for 5 turns before I decided to crowdsurf him.
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Nov 9, 2015 12:20
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Yorkshire Tea posted:Speaking from my experience adminning the most recent Goonbowl, it's really variable. I know that Nurgle, both Lizards and Goblins all took their big guys. Norse, both Orc teams and I believe both Skaven teams didn't. I took a Rogre on my rats in Goonbowl. But then he died and I went "meh" and didn't replace him so I guess that's still a point in the 'gently caress big guys' column. I like Big Guys in leagues because having a Strength 5 player to start, regardless of negatrait drawbacks, is very appealing when you don't have the luxury of grooming up your team over a bunch of inconsequential games.
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Nov 9, 2015 18:15
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Some day soon we will all embrace the Khmeri life
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Nov 9, 2015 18:19
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