Gerund posted:How does libertarianism abide by their own collectivist view of The State as a large social construct centered around a monopoly of legitimate force, but then proclaim that their own ideal existence to solely contain individuals rather than another collective with a different view on violence and its legitimacy? Read my post a few posts up and then understand that the only things they care about are absolute freedom and privity of contract and lack of initiatory aggression. I don't fully understand your question though, so maybe expand?
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Nov 9, 2015 23:56
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Disinterested posted:Read my post a few posts up and then understand that the only things they care about are absolute freedom and privity of contract and lack of initiatory aggression. I don't fully understand your question though, so maybe expand? What I approach anarchism from (and the descendant Anarcho-Capitalist thought) is the difference between the obvious existence of violence (e.g. tackling & guns) and the legitimate violence of the state as given to them by society (e.g. society accepting tackling and guns by LEOs and being loathe to interfere because of coercive effects). Those that stray from the norm as set by the State/society aren't just acted against by the State, they also lose the ability to call for assistance from the larger society to defend against the State. The difference being in the ideal world of libertarians (as distinct from other flavors of Anarchism) is that it requires the same societal acceptance of a base level of legitimate violence to establish peace. Elsewise the resultant discord would create a cascading pattern of reprisals until the societal norm is established, only to be interrupted by another conflict.
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Nov 10, 2015 00:30
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Gerund posted:How does libertarianism abide by their own collectivist view of The State as a large social construct centered around a monopoly of legitimate force, but then proclaim that their own ideal existence to solely contain individuals rather than another collective with a different view on violence and its legitimacy? Loquaciously.
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Nov 10, 2015 00:35
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Gerund posted:What I approach anarchism from (and the descendant Anarcho-Capitalist thought) is the difference between the obvious existence of violence (e.g. tackling & guns) and the legitimate violence of the state as given to them by society (e.g. society accepting tackling and guns by LEOs and being loathe to interfere because of coercive effects). Those that stray from the norm as set by the State/society aren't just acted against by the State, they also lose the ability to call for assistance from the larger society to defend against the State. The short answer is they have no issue with violence as long as it isn't initiatory, and they have no problem with any form of social compact as a matter of rights (if they thought you could freely contract with the state they might be OK with it, though they might dispute its efficiency) that permits violence, so long as that violence is (a) non-initiatory and (b) consented to.
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Nov 10, 2015 00:37
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Of course it is important to remember that their version of force doesn't necessarily reflect the usage of the word amongst normal folks. Or their use of initiation for that matter.
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Nov 10, 2015 02:08
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Disinterested posted:The short answer is they have no issue with violence as long as it isn't initiatory, and they have no problem with any form of social compact as a matter of rights (if they thought you could freely contract with the state they might be OK with it, though they might dispute its efficiency) that permits violence, so long as that violence is (a) non-initiatory and (b) consented to. You're still requiring a societal understanding of "initiatory" violence, consent, and even the judicious use of "non-initiatory force". I find the whole canard to be an obfuscation of libertarianism's crypto-fascist underpinning, wherein the ideal society must first conduct an full and equitable culling so that the cull's survivors are all unified under a single monoculture.
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Nov 10, 2015 02:10
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Gerund posted:You're still requiring a societal understanding of "initiatory" violence, consent, and even the judicious use of "non-initiatory force". Oh you're right of course that the definition of these things is socially mediated, whether libertarians realise or accept that is another matter. They don't accept your second premise is logically necessary, but it's a personal preference for many libertarians in fact (apart from, say, Nozick, but then again he doesn't use this method/argument).
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Nov 10, 2015 02:15
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Ron Paul is a huge racist
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Nov 10, 2015 09:51
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QuarkJets posted:Ron Paul is a huge racist Ron Paul is a huge racist?
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Nov 10, 2015 14:24
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QuarkJets posted:Ron Paul is a huge racist  guess I'm gonna end up ethnically cleansing the fremen
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Nov 10, 2015 14:35
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:
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Nov 10, 2015 14:49
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Ron Paul is a huge racist? Google Ron Paul is a huge racist.
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Nov 10, 2015 16:32
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Cantorsdust posted:Google Ron Paul is a huge racist. Who the hell is Google Ron Paul? I thought there was only one Ron Paul. Did he have more children then we thought? Is this some weird bastard child that is going to claim legitimacy in 20 years and accuse Rand Paul of being an imposter?
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Nov 10, 2015 18:47
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Who the hell is Google Ron Paul? I thought there was only one Ron Paul. Did he have more children then we thought? Is this some weird bastard child that is going to claim legitimacy in 20 years and accuse Rand Paul of being an imposter? He is the Free Market manifested in human form. The Free Market (pbuh) wished that a saviour would come along, and it is a representation of the two purest adherents to it: Google (being the pure logical praexological being that it is) and Ron Paul (being the one pure voice of reason in government).
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Nov 10, 2015 18:49
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Google "Google Ron Paul"
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Nov 10, 2015 18:49
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Who the hell is Google Ron Paul? 
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Nov 10, 2015 18:55
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I once met Ron Paul, we joked around a bit about the Fed and then he went on a tirade about how black people are really only suitable for picking cotton and stealing white women. He had an idea where he was going to breed "the squinty-eyed hard-working chinaman" with "the brutish negroids" in order to combine the physical strength of black people with the work ethic of the Chinese. This was how he was going to reduce welfare expenditures
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Nov 10, 2015 20:20
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QuarkJets posted:I once met Ron Paul, we joked around a bit about the Fed and then he went on a tirade about how black people are really only suitable for picking cotton and stealing white women. He had an idea where he was going to breed "the squinty-eyed hard-working chinaman" with "the brutish negroids" in order to combine the physical strength of black people with the work ethic of the Chinese. This was how he was going to reduce welfare expenditures The Uruk-Hai of slave labour.
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Nov 10, 2015 20:31
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QuarkJets posted:I once met Ron Paul, we joked around a bit about the Fed and then he went on a tirade about how black people are really only suitable for picking cotton and stealing white women. He had an idea where he was going to breed "the squinty-eyed hard-working chinaman" with "the brutish negroids" in order to combine the physical strength of black people with the work ethic of the Chinese. This was how he was going to reduce welfare expenditures I would not be surprised if this actually happened
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Nov 10, 2015 21:00
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Twerkteam Pizza posted:I would not be surprised if this actually happened Good news, I, several other people, and one public notary all saw it happen.
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Nov 10, 2015 21:03
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Who What Now posted:Good news, I, several other people, and one public notary all saw it happen. How have you found time to post here during the busy campaign, Dr. Carson?
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Nov 10, 2015 21:15
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Who What Now posted:Good news, I, several other people, and one public notary all saw it happen. And that notary's name was Albert Einstein.
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Nov 10, 2015 21:21
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Nolanar posted:And that notary's name was Albert Einstein. Well I wasn't gonna be so gauche as to name-drop him
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Nov 10, 2015 23:12
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Yeah come on show some respect, dick Anyway, the moral of the story is that Ron Paul is a huge unapologetic racist and so are all of the other libertarians
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Nov 11, 2015 02:32
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Nolanar posted:And that notary's name was Albert Einstein. Normally I'd ask to see the stamp, but as a (former) notary myself, I say this checks out.
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Nov 11, 2015 02:33
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Notaries are evil statist aggression towards totally real and  stories that are not in any way false, please do not agress against me or any other poster by bringing them up. Thanks.
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Nov 11, 2015 15:53
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Malleum posted:Notaries are evil statist aggression towards totally real and
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Nov 11, 2015 16:12
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Halloween Jack posted:Sovereign citizens loving love notaries, though. Why? Shouldn't they let the free market determine what's been witnessed?
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Nov 11, 2015 16:18
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Sovereign Citizens are a different kind of crazy then Libertarians.
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Nov 11, 2015 16:24
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Dr Pepper posted:Sovereign Citizens are a different kind of crazy then Libertarians. 
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Nov 11, 2015 17:03
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They are in fact cut from the same gold-fringed cloth
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Nov 11, 2015 17:32
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mojo1701a posted:Why? Shouldn't they let the free market determine what's been witnessed? Sovcits/freemen are libertarians to the extent that they believe the state is not legitimate, everything is a contract, and that they shouldn't be subject to any contracts they didn't explicitly accept. But they wouldn't be happy in Libertopia. Remember, these related movements mostly got started as scams--not on the government or the banks, but on the people who buy into the movement. Granted, with some notable exceptions they tend to appeal to white, rural, paranoid conservatives, but we're still talking about a lot of people who are less ideological than they are desperate enough to try anything to get them out of a bill they can't pay. An almost universal concept among OPCA movements is that there's a difference between a human being and their "legal person," a legal fiction created by the government, which is just a corporation anyway. The goal of their nonsense filings is to claim all their income, property, and the benefits of citizenship, but dump all their debts and obligations on their "legal person," which they then disavow. They don't just use this tactic to protest taxes and court-ordered debt like fines and child support, but also to try to nullify private debts like mortgages and car loans. Another cornerstone of their beliefs is that the government is really just a corporation, hence all the bizarre behaviour and nonsense filings to avoid what they think are hidden procedural "traps" that constitute consent to a contract. So in a Libertopian future, they'd still be practicing pseudolegal witchcraft, but targeted at their DRO instead of the state judicial system. What libertarians and OPCA types have in common are an obsession with contracts, a hazy paranoid fear of all government, and apparently, popularity among paleoconservative radicals and the mentally ill.
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Nov 11, 2015 18:36
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Private property is the bedrock of any wealthy country. There's a book called the Mystery of Capital by Hernando De Soto, where he goes into more detail about the subject. You can go to Youtube and type: John Stossel - Property Rights and Prosperity, He is on the show, if you want to hear him. Sound currency and a stable political system is also important...should we care..YES!
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Nov 12, 2015 03:12
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LibertarianGuy posted:Private property is the bedrock of any wealthy country. There's a book called the Mystery of Capital by Hernando De Soto, where he goes into more detail about the subject. You can go to Youtube and type: John Stossel - Property Rights and Prosperity, He is on the show, if you want to hear him. Sound currency and a stable political system is also important...should we care..YES! John Stossel is a tool and a moron "Libertarian Guy," I could try to teach this to you but instead I'll post this for my own satisfaction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0q44ALM7jo
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Nov 12, 2015 03:14
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The federal government is completely gridlocked, doesn't get much more stable than that.
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Nov 12, 2015 03:21
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LibertarianGuy posted:Private property is the bedrock of any wealthy country. There's a book called the Mystery of Capital by Hernando De Soto, where he goes into more detail about the subject. You can go to Youtube and type: John Stossel - Property Rights and Prosperity, He is on the show, if you want to hear him. Sound currency and a stable political system is also important...should we care..YES! 0.00 posts per day ...lurk more
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Nov 12, 2015 03:23
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Is it actually possible to establish a currency system that protects itself? The Roman emperors had no trouble I can remember when they deemed it necessary to mint debased coins.
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Nov 12, 2015 03:33
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Halloween Jack posted:Is it actually possible to establish a currency system that protects itself? The Roman emperors had no trouble I can remember when they deemed it necessary to mint debased coins. did somebody say ＢＬＯＣＫＣＨＡＩＮ ?
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Nov 12, 2015 03:35
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LibertarianGuy posted:Private property is the bedrock of any wealthy country. There's a book called the Mystery of Capital by Hernando De Soto, where he goes into more detail about the subject. You can go to Youtube and type: John Stossel - Property Rights and Prosperity, He is on the show, if you want to hear him. Sound currency and a stable political system is also important...should we care..YES! Do any of the countries De Soto mentions as good examples of prosperity manage to enforce property rights without compelling everyone to recognize them and accept official adjudication thereof using a government monopoly of force backed by coercive taxation?
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Nov 12, 2015 03:53
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LibertarianGuy posted:Private property is the bedrock of any wealthy country. There's a book called the Mystery of Capital by Hernando De Soto, where he goes into more detail about the subject. You can go to Youtube and type: John Stossel - Property Rights and Prosperity, He is on the show, if you want to hear him. Sound currency and a stable political system is also important...should we care..YES! john stossel should be beaten up and stuffed in a locker every day, hes a fuckin rear end in a top hat and an idiot
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Nov 12, 2015 03:58
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