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a shameful boehner posted:Democrats are bad at messaging because nuance and fact are critical to complex, society-wide proposals that take time to explain and comprehend. I think that it's better to say that Democrats are at a disadvantage in messaging rather than they're bad at it - like you're saying, certain policies are just harder to message than others. It's not like if you swapped the people doing messaging between the parties Democrats would start winning. They might be better at it because of having to deal with messaging nuance instead of black and white, just not good enough to overcome the natural handicap. I think for something like this you have to break up the tax hikes into smaller pieces spread around places: it's the one tax that everyone pays tripling that's such a problem. People will pay for heath care, but 300% tax increase sounds way higher than baking smaller percentage increases into various sections of the tax code. It may simply be that there's not a good way to do it on a state level without needing a significant growth in the size of the state government - and its tax base - and that it just needs to be a federal program. I'd like to see it succeed but I'm not sure that it can be done politically yet.
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Nov 12, 2015 23:18
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Radbot posted:I disagree, because if there's anything people hate as much as taxes, it's healthcare premiums. "XXX DOLLARS OUT OF YOUR POCKET" could be countered by "XXX DOLLARS IN YOUR POCKET, AND gently caress YOUR INSURANCE COMPANY TOO". I'm no messaging genius, but you aren't either. people think they hate taxes and healthcare premiums but they actually hate the byzantine systems behind both of those things far more than the thing itself. People freak out about getting audited or overpaying because they don't know about X loophole and they freak out about coverage that you can't know if a specific doctor will work with your policy until you've already bought that policy. I think there's a lot of ground to be had with emphasizing how easy poo poo is with single payer. Apple has gone from pathetic has-been to suffering a 100 billion dollar loss and still being twice as large as the second largest publicly traded company by betting that people would pay double for a product you didn't have to fiddle with, and I think there's a lot to be had there.
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Nov 12, 2015 23:22
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Bushiz posted:people think they hate taxes and healthcare premiums but they actually hate the byzantine systems behind both of those things far more than the thing itself. People freak out about getting audited or overpaying because they don't know about X loophole and they freak out about coverage that you can't know if a specific doctor will work with your policy until you've already bought that policy. Here's the paperwork you need to file under the proposed Colorado health plan (less paperwork) Here's what you need to do to get reimbursed by your insurance (show someone bitching with a private insurer) Here's what you need to do to get reinbursed under the proposed Colorado health plan (show someone making a single, quick phone call)
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Nov 12, 2015 23:26
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Bushiz posted:people think they hate taxes and healthcare premiums but they actually hate the byzantine systems behind both of those things far more than the thing itself. People freak out about getting audited or overpaying because they don't know about X loophole and they freak out about coverage that you can't know if a specific doctor will work with your policy until you've already bought that policy. Haha, it would be amazing if the people behind this drove the message that it was easier by playing it against the state ombamacare health exchange. "Hey, remember how every year you have to put up with a bunch of bullshit because your premiums change/ insurance company goes bust /coverage changes/ etc because of Obamacare? Well with single payer it just gets deducted from your paycheck like social security. No paperwork, no changes, no hassle."
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Nov 12, 2015 23:27
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Greatbacon posted:Haha, it would be amazing if the people behind this drove the message that it was easier by playing it against the state ombamacare health exchange. That's actually a brilliant idea. I can see that convincing enough Suicide Republicans and you'd obviously have Democrats on board with it. Again, we return to messaging.
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Nov 12, 2015 23:31
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BetterToRuleInHell posted:More Mizzou hijinks: That's a shame that they're removing them so quickly regarding the confrontation, it's reinforcing the perceived notion that a single mistake should lead to termination of employment that many have been rallying against, when it should just lead to some sort of training and a commitment to improve from that point. Most companies operate using the latter, and if this trend keeps going, it doesn't bode well for workers rights in academia.
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Nov 12, 2015 23:31
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BetterToRuleInHell posted:More Mizzou hijinks: I've heard multiple times that "black people can't be racist since we don't stand to benefit from such a system." Defining racism posted:ADL: Racism is the belief that a particular race is superior or inferior to another, that a person’s social and moral traits are predetermined by his or her inborn biological characteristics. It seems to me that if a black person stereotypes another person based on their race (especially if it is negatively), they are being racist. I totally agree that racism perpetuated by black people is not institutional and has nowhere near the effects that other types do, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. Why do people keep saying this poo poo? Blowdryer fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Nov 12, 2015 |
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Nov 12, 2015 23:33
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evilweasel posted:Nope. Not least because it's not always true so when the media says "who's right" the Republicans will be right and you will be "well, it depends". The Republican argument will be clear, concice, and easy to show: "look, this is the current tax rate, this is the proposed tax rate, that is XXX DOLLARS OUT OF YOUR POCKET", while you have to go "well, thats true, but if you bear with me lets do some math..." And it won't just be the Republicans saying that. The insurance industry, pharma, and hospitals will run a media campaign against this plan. Again, I hope Colorado succeeds, but know from recent experience how hard it will be. Vermont's effort ended with a Democratic governor only winning re-election because the Libertarian candidate siphoned votes from his Republican challenger, who was an awful candidate that opened his debate remarks with "Hi I'm Scott Milne. I'm a lifelong Vermonter... actually, no, I was born in Brooklyn."
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Nov 12, 2015 23:36
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Control Volume posted:That's a shame that they're removing them so quickly regarding the confrontation, it's reinforcing the perceived notion that a single mistake should lead to termination of employment that many have been rallying against, when it should just lead to some sort of training and a commitment to improve from that point. Most companies operate using the latter, and if this trend keeps going, it doesn't bode well for workers rights in academia. Physical assault against students by faculty is a bit more than a "whoopsie".
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Nov 12, 2015 23:37
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a shameful boehner posted:I'm not sure what you're arguing? It's not like Cory Gardner or Mike Coffman are suddenly going to see the light and say "oh, yeah, let's throw our support behind this". I'm arguing that it's probably not a good idea to go on a rant about Democratic messaging when there's, like, one politician (a state legislator at that) in that party that is supporting it.
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Nov 12, 2015 23:38
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Blowdryer posted:I've heard multiple times that "black people can't be racist since we don't stand to benefit from such a system." Why are you not listening to the smart, cool, white progressives telling you that you can't be racist? You're ruining my theories about intersectionality! 
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Nov 12, 2015 23:38
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Blowdryer posted:I've heard multiple times that "black people can't be racist since we don't stand to benefit from such a system." It probably stems from racism from the group in power (commonly accepted to be white people) against disadvantaged minorities having much more of a harmful impact than the other way around. This leads to more of an acceptance of, say, black people making jokes about white people than vice versa as it doesn't carry the same destructive weight. Then all it takes is someone radicalizing the phrase "less impact" to "no racism at all" and extend it to racism even in the case of other minorities. I highly doubt even a significant percentage of black people think this way but the controversial idiots tend to get the most attention and airtime these days. Control Volume fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Nov 12, 2015 |
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Nov 12, 2015 23:38
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Radbot posted:I'm arguing that it's probably not a good idea to go on a rant about Democratic messaging when there's, like, one politician (a state legislator at that) in that party that is supporting it. It's not really ranting to say that "Democrats are bad at messaging" which is objectively true, even if there aren't really any (currently) supporting the ballot initiative. It's admittedly putting the cart before the horse without getting Democrats on board with the proposal, but I can't imagine that it would be difficult, particularly given the pressure they'll face from their constituencies along the front range.
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Nov 12, 2015 23:42
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Vhak lord of hate posted:Physical assault against students by faculty is a bit more than a "whoopsie". The last job I worked was in manufacturing where two people got in an actual fight. The company response was to send them home for the night and chew them out the day after. Neither one was fired. The situation was defused by putting them in different areas of the company, and the two people generally didn't like each other after that (well the one telling the story didn't hold much of a grudge), but the company solved the issue without letting the place slip into being a hostile work environment. It's only one example, but you are seriously underestimating the power companies have to resolve these situations without resorting to termination.
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Nov 12, 2015 23:47
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Blowdryer posted:I've heard multiple times that "black people can't be racist since we don't stand to benefit from such a system." Yeah, when's the last time you heard a black person stating that black people were superior and actually being convincing? That's because our entire society stands on the conception of the inferiority of african americans, and its baked in from birth. Kids know it, and adults know it too. Whenever a white person is racist, they're not just talking with their own voice, but an entire system centered around the immutability of that fact. That's the difference, and why your post is nonsense.
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Nov 12, 2015 23:51
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a shameful boehner posted:It's not really ranting to say that "Democrats are bad at messaging" which is objectively true, even if there aren't really any (currently) supporting the ballot initiative. I'd say what evilweasel posted constitutes a rant, yeah, especially since it was aggressive and completely irrelevant (since there is no official Democratic support behind the initiative beyond one state legislator). a shameful boehner posted:It's admittedly putting the cart before the horse without getting Democrats on board with the proposal, but I can't imagine that it would be difficult, particularly given the pressure they'll face from their constituencies along the front range. I'm gonna say it will be tougher than you think, considering that there were many Democratic politicians in the state against legalization as well (including our Governor).
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Nov 12, 2015 23:55
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a shameful boehner posted:That's actually a brilliant idea. I can see that convincing enough Suicide Republicans and you'd obviously have Democrats on board with it. Yeah, most of what I'm reading is trying to frame it like that - a "state-based solution to get rid of the federal system/Washington DC" and as an Obamacare replacement. That's exactly the tack I've thought would work best so here's hoping it's effective.
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Nov 12, 2015 23:56
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The Phlegmatist posted:Oh, and they specifically excluded chiropractic care from coverage. B-b-but it totally helped me you guys!  Control Volume posted:The last job I worked was in manufacturing where two people got in an actual fight. The company response was to send them home for the night and chew them out the day after. Neither one was fired. The situation was defused by putting them in different areas of the company, and the two people generally didn't like each other after that (well the one telling the story didn't hold much of a grudge), but the company solved the issue without letting the place slip into being a hostile work environment. Blue collar workers fighting with each other is not the same thing as a student being attacked by a teacher. If two teachers got in a fight (or two students) they'd be disciplined and probably not fired/expelled. If either of your coworkers had attacked a client/customer they would've been fired at the very least and the employer would be doing whatever they could to avoid being sued.
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Nov 12, 2015 23:58
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Radbot posted:I'd say what evilweasel posted constitutes a rant, yeah, especially since it was aggressive and completely irrelevant (since there is no official Democratic support behind the initiative beyond one state legislator). I don't really care about bothering to draw a distinction between who, precisely, supports the measure when it's not relevant to my point. The idea that everyone is a messaging expert is common and annoying and gets in the way of any sensible discussion because it's just people reciting what resonates with them.
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Nov 12, 2015 23:59
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Radbot posted:I'm gonna say it will be tougher than you think, considering that there were many Democratic politicians in the state against legalization as well (including our Governor). You're probably right, but universal healthcare is a vastly different topic that has broad support - depending on how it's phrased in the asking, of course. To me universal healthcare seems way less controversial than "first state in the world to completely legalize marijuana!!" but then, this is America in 2015, and Donald Trump is still leading the Republican primary polling, so what do I know?
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Nov 13, 2015 00:02
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Joementum posted:And it won't just be the Republicans saying that. The insurance industry, pharma, and hospitals will run a media campaign against this plan. Wow you weren't kidding, also I need to watch the next Vermont governor debates. http://www.businessinsider.com/vermont-gubernatorial-debate-highlights-2014-10 quote:All seven of the people running for governor in Vermont faced off last week and it was far from your typical political debate. The event featured interesting apparel and a heated discussion of a wide variety of topics including; aluminum nanoparticles, the "Zionist regime," bathrooms at highway rest areas, and a potential nuclear disaster near the city of Burlington. And it just gets better from there!
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Nov 13, 2015 00:04
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Shageletic posted:Yeah, when's the last time you heard a black person stating that black people were superior and actually being convincing? That's because our entire society stands on the conception of the inferiority of african americans, and its baked in from birth. Kids know it, and adults know it too. Of course black people are not taking part in a society-wide effort to paint other races as inferior and that it comes from a different source. I am also clearly not trying to minimize discrimination against black people by being like "SEE THEY DO IT TOO". I am not saying racism from black people is a big issue (e; or even an issue at all), nor am I trying to deflect or detract the significance of racism against them. I understand the difference. I am simply making the point that an individual black person can indeed be racist towards another person. Saying black people can be racist does not mean black people aren't subjected to how our hosed up society treats and views them. e; I guess my gripe is that people saying poo poo like that when they mean something else is going to turn people away. But it's definitely not going to turn me away from caring because obviously the protests are valid. So maybe it shouldn't matter because perhaps the only ones who will be turned away are people who don't actually care about the significant things and are dumb enough to be distracted by that or by rioting or by holding away a photographer or whatever else the media is trying to distract people with. Still, I don't necessarily feel wrong for having that bother me. Blowdryer fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Nov 13, 2015 |
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Nov 13, 2015 00:04
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In further campus protest news, students successfully got Claremont-McKenna's Dean of Students to resign for not supporting marginalized students enough:quote:KPCC I guess this movement in picking up momentum? Maybe it's going to spread to other schools? Who even knows at this point?
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Nov 13, 2015 00:06
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evilweasel posted:I don't really care about bothering to draw a distinction between who, precisely, supports the measure when it's not relevant to my point. The idea that everyone is a messaging expert is common and annoying and gets in the way of any sensible discussion because it's just people reciting what resonates with them. Yes, me suggesting a line that could be used to counter a certain idea is proclaiming I'm a messaging expert. Sure thing. Who, "precisely", supports the measure is pretty important in this context, especially when the level of precision you're talking about is "Democrats". Which you were wrong about.
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Nov 13, 2015 00:07
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evilweasel posted:Wow you weren't kidding, also I need to watch the next Vermont governor debates. Pete Diamondstone, the revolutionary socialist who wore jorts to that debate and called on the workers at the IBM plant in Burlington to rise up and seize the means of production, is an old friend of Bernie Sanders. They founded the Liberty Union Party together in the 70s. Diamondstone still runs the party and has run for office in 24 straight elections, often for multiple posts. Sanders left the party after Pete accused him of being insufficiently committed to the cause. But, yes, always watch the Vermont gubernatorial debates. They are fun. 
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Nov 13, 2015 00:09
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evilweasel posted:Wow you weren't kidding, also I need to watch the next Vermont governor debates. I just want to confirm this debate is real, did occur and not some sort of comedy routine on a TV show?
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Nov 13, 2015 00:09
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Blowdryer posted:Of course black people are not taking part in a society-wide effort to paint other races as inferior and that it comes from a different source. I am also clearly not trying to minimize discrimination against black people by being like "SEE THEY DO IT TOO". I am not saying racism from black people is a big issue, nor am I trying to deflect or detract the significance of racism against them. I understand the difference. Some people consider racism to be "prejudice plus power" in that if a black guy treats a white guy badly, it's prejudice because in terms of race, whites have always been socially ahead. I think it's a good way to separate the two trains of thought. Tell that definition to a bunch of brogressive reddit readers, and you'll get a bunch of "nuh uh! You can't have it that way!" because they so desperately want to not be in the "racist" category, and the only way to do that is to deflect and say "blacks can be racist too."
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Nov 13, 2015 00:21
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I didn't want to cause a derail in the GOP Primary thread but I did want to ask a question that I was reminded of there. Is there a good reason why inert gas is off the table for executions, or is it really just a bloodlust thing? It comes up from time to time in industrial accidents/Darwin Award nominees and it seems like a whole bunch of nitrogen just makes you stop living without realizing it or feeling any pain.
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Nov 13, 2015 00:22
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Epic High Five posted:I didn't want to cause a derail in the GOP Primary thread but I did want to ask a question that I was reminded of there. Is there a good reason why inert gas is off the table for executions, or is it really just a bloodlust thing? It comes up from time to time in industrial accidents/Darwin Award nominees and it seems like a whole bunch of nitrogen just makes you stop living without realizing it or feeling any pain. it is by far the most effective, cheapest, painless, nontoxic, best all around way to end someone's life. which is why it's a nonstarter for vengeance-based punishments administered by a heartless bureaucracy
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Nov 13, 2015 00:25
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Epic High Five posted:I didn't want to cause a derail in the GOP Primary thread but I did want to ask a question that I was reminded of there. Is there a good reason why inert gas is off the table for executions, or is it really just a bloodlust thing? It comes up from time to time in industrial accidents/Darwin Award nominees and it seems like a whole bunch of nitrogen just makes you stop living without realizing it or feeling any pain. That's Oklahoma's backup plan. I recommend people watch the truly great Errol Morris documentary Mr. Death about the guy who developed the three stage injection system. He then branched out and started designing gas chambers, leading him to take a few trips to Poland where he decided the holocaust never happened because the chambers he saw were too shoddy.
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Nov 13, 2015 00:26
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Mayor Dave posted:In further campus protest news, students successfully got Claremont-McKenna's Dean of Students to resign for not supporting marginalized students enough: Since this is Claremont-McKenna, this feels appropriate (I had removed it earlier): quote:Students at a “safe space” at Claremont McKenna College in California shut down an Asian woman who was describing racial harassment by a black man, booing her when she declared, “black people can be racist.”
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Nov 13, 2015 00:28
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Mayor Dave posted:In further campus protest news, students successfully got Claremont-McKenna's Dean of Students to resign for not supporting marginalized students enough: I hope it does. But I'm also afraid it's going to culminate in yet another massive school shooting. Howard University got a threat of one today (on 4chan) basically stating that at 10am the dude's going to start shooting any and all minority (specifically black students though) students he sees. Reddit's take, as usual, is to mostly ignore it and what little attention is paid to the situation is 100% "It's just uppity blacks trying to paint white people as racist".
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Nov 13, 2015 00:29
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Epic High Five posted:I didn't want to cause a derail in the GOP Primary thread but I did want to ask a question that I was reminded of there. Is there a good reason why inert gas is off the table for executions, or is it really just a bloodlust thing? It comes up from time to time in industrial accidents/Darwin Award nominees and it seems like a whole bunch of nitrogen just makes you stop living without realizing it or feeling any pain. States don't like to experiment with execution procedures because it leads to more difficult court challenges. Also, anything that can fairly be described as a "gas chamber" has obvious PR problems no matter how humane it is.
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Nov 13, 2015 00:30
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Ezekiel_980 posted:I just want to confirm this debate is real, did occur and not some sort of comedy routine on a TV show? Yes, yes, and definitely. The debates were televised, after all.
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Nov 13, 2015 00:30
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evilweasel posted:Wow you weren't kidding, also I need to watch the next Vermont governor debates. This is amazing.
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Nov 13, 2015 00:34
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evilweasel posted:States don't like to experiment with execution procedures because it leads to more difficult court challenges. Also, anything that can fairly be described as a "gas chamber" has obvious PR problems no matter how humane it is. I thought gas chamber was just the public face of it. The more specific term is nitrogen asphyxiation. Not that Kansas wouldn't stretch this to let them execute people using mustard gas or anything. Doesn't it have a precedent of being used that can be called on? Personally, I'm in favor of no executions but the realist in me wants them to at least be painless. Yeah I can see how it would be a dicey issue to anybody who doesn't work at OSHA or in industry that has to deal with how scary this stuff can be in regards to killing you before you realize you're being killed edit - maybe just pull a trick out of Big Pharma's playbook and package it with hydrochlorothiazide and submit it for a patent as Justice Fog Popular Thug Drink posted:it is by far the most effective, cheapest, painless, nontoxic, best all around way to end someone's life. which is why it's a nonstarter for vengeance-based punishments administered by a heartless bureaucracy This is what I was afraid the answer would be, but I was hoping there was some more specific "it's actually not as perfect as it seems" thing I was overlooking  Joementum posted:That's Oklahoma's backup plan. PLEASE tell me that was after that series of botched executions where people writhed and pulled at their restraints for like an hour Epic High Five fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Nov 13, 2015 |
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Nov 13, 2015 00:35
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Evil Fluffy posted:B-b-but it totally helped me you guys! This is just bringing up that it's context sensitive, though. Which is true, but the context here is a heated verbal exchange, and a teacher stupidly trying to act like a bouncer in a protest is a world of difference from getting in an actual fight. The last sentence is exactly the problem because it's all just a PR circus and it's in a case where the student in question doesn't even want to press charges. A lot of this conversation is stemming from dislike of trying to terminate employment in a high-profile case like this, because it's less losing a job and more ending an entire career as other institutions won't even touch her if it'll marginally hurt PR, which is an incredibly disproportionate punishment for what actually happened.
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Nov 13, 2015 00:39
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Crain posted:I hope it does. But I'm also afraid it's going to culminate in yet another massive school shooting. I think it's going to get farther along first, but I agree that at some point in the near future we're going to get another Nazi manifesto and school shooting targeting black people. The vitriol about this online is staggering.
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Nov 13, 2015 01:11
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Luigi Thirty posted:I think it's going to get farther along first, but I agree that at some point in the near future we're going to get another Nazi manifesto and school shooting targeting black people. The vitriol about this online is staggering. If you really wanna hate yourself, check out the Mizzou subreddit. Last I checked, it was basically /r/stormfront.
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Nov 13, 2015 01:27
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PUGGERNAUT posted:If you really wanna hate yourself, check out the Mizzou subreddit. Last I checked, it was basically /r/stormfront. clicked on a thread about the swastika and the top comment is saying that the protestors shouldn't be offended because a poo poo swastika is only offensive to nazis, because it's made of poo poo. yep that's pretty bad
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Nov 13, 2015 01:38
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