USPOL Nov: I would've preferred Huckabee have said nothing at all

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > USPOL Nov: I would've preferred Huckabee have said nothing at all

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hobbesmaster: Jan 28, 2008

I thought they were doing a race reversed casting like Patrick Stewart's Othello which... actually wouldn't have been any better.

# ? Nov 13, 2015 16:14

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# ? May 23, 2024 21:22

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

They should make a race-reversed White Man's Burden

makes u think

# ? Nov 13, 2015 16:17

haveblue: Aug 15, 2005; Toilet Rascal

hobbesmaster posted:

I thought they were doing a race reversed casting like Patrick Stewart's Othello which... actually wouldn't have been any better.

It would be more defensible as there is a surprising amount of historical nuance and contextual complexity behind Othello's use of race and skin color, as you would expect of a 400-year-old work.

But yeah, you really shouldn't do it with a character based on a man that a huge number of people can remember meeting in real life.

# ? Nov 13, 2015 16:23

mdemone: Mar 14, 2001

haveblue posted:

It would be more defensible as there is a surprising amount of historical nuance and contextual complexity behind Othello's use of race and skin color, as you would expect of a 400-year-old work.

But yeah, you really shouldn't do it with a character based on a man that a huge number of people can remember meeting in real life.

If you're going to do it, it has to be done with a stage script that explicitly was designed to do it that way (which obviously this one was not), in order to really flesh out the contrast the director was aiming for here. Basically the play has to be very self-aware that it stars a character played by multiple races, and it has to treat that aspect very carefully.

# ? Nov 13, 2015 16:31

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007; Can't post for 6 hours!

Typical Pubbie posted:

Shouldn't that make it easier to implement single-payer from a cost control standpoint? If the federal government is covering old people and wounded vets then the healthiest cohorts only have to pay for themselves. I think the biggest obstacle for single-payer at a state level is the absence of fiscal and monetary tools necessary to weather economic downturns while continuing to fund the healthcare system. If the federal government needs to pay for something during an economic crash it can print money and/or borrow as much as it needs. States don't have that kind of flexibility.

e: I forgot to refresh

The biggest obstacle to single payer at the state level is the massive amounts of revenue immediately needed to implement it, regardless of how the economy is doing

quote:

Lunge, Gov. Peter Shumlin's director of health reform, had spent weeks trying to make the math work for a public health insurance plan that would cover all Vermonters. Since Thanksgiving, she had been sending numbers off to M.I.T. economist Jonathan Gruber (yes, that Jonathan Gruber) and Wakely Consulting, an actuarial firm.

The models Gruber was running were meant to project the cost of Vermont's plan under different scenarios. What if the health plan covered 80 percent of the typical Vermonter's health care costs? What about 94 percent? But as the numbers got more concrete � as they closed in on the plan the governor actually wanted � the financial foundation began to crack. Lunge knew by that Friday that the single-payer system Vermont wanted to build would require about $2.5 billion in additional revenue in its first year.

In Vermont, this is massive: the state only raises $2.7 billion in taxes a year for every program it funds. Early estimates said that Vermont's single-payer plan might need $1.6 billion in additional funds � a huge lift. But $2.5 billion was impossible.

http://www.vox.com/2014/12/22/7427117/single-payer-vermont-shumlin

This makes instituting it at the state level, as in gaining enough support to do so, nearly impossible. Other countries that moved over to single payer were doing away with dysfunctional or non-existent health care schemes. Our system has hid its costs well enough that people will fight to keep it, and asking for additional sacrifices for even bigger benefits down the road is unrealistic at best.

# ? Nov 13, 2015 16:31

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

Shageletic posted:

The biggest obstacle to single payer at the state level is the massive amounts of revenue immediately needed to implement it, regardless of how the economy is doing

http://www.vox.com/2014/12/22/7427117/single-payer-vermont-shumlin

This makes instituting it at the state level, as in gaining enough support to do so, nearly impossible. Other countries that moved over to single payer were doing away with dysfunctional or non-existent health care schemes. Our system has hid its costs well enough that people will fight to keep it, and asking for additional sacrifices for even bigger benefits down the road is unrealistic at best.

This is more of an issue for small states, with larger states you begin to kick in economies of scale.

# ? Nov 13, 2015 16:33

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007; Can't post for 6 hours!

computer parts posted:

This is more of an issue for small states, with larger states you begin to kick in economies of scale.

We'll see! I don't see how there won't be a need for immediate extra revenue though, regardless of how big a state is.

EDIT: There might be a drop in administrative costs and premiums for average folk under UHC, but those benefits will only occur AFTER the immediate injection of funds, which almost inevitably necessitates a higher tax burden. And higher tax burdens is the most losing issue in the post World War II era.

Shageletic fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Nov 13, 2015

# ? Nov 13, 2015 16:42

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

Shageletic posted:

We'll see! I don't see how there won't be a need for immediate extra revenue though, regardless of how big a state is.

EDIT: There might be a drop in administrative costs and premiums for average folk under UHC, but those benefits will only occur AFTER the immediate injection of funds, which almost inevitably necessitates a higher tax burden. And higher tax burdens is the most losing issue in the post World War II era.

There will be a need, but it won't be as large of an impact (i.e., literally doubling the amount of taxes they need as in Vermont).

# ? Nov 13, 2015 16:45

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

What's the total premiums paid by Vermont residents though?

# ? Nov 13, 2015 16:49

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

$2.5 B is like $4600 a person, which is like $383 a month, which isn't unreasonable for a zero deductible plan

# ? Nov 13, 2015 16:51

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007; Can't post for 6 hours!

computer parts posted:

There will be a need, but it won't be as large of an impact (i.e., literally doubling the amount of taxes they need as in Vermont).

According to California's Legislative Analysis Office, California would need to bridge a revenue gap of 46 billion dollars to institute single payer in the state. Of course, this was generated in 2008, before the ACA. And even Vermont's analysis factored in the federal government pitching in and continuing to handle medicare and medicaid, but that did not still cover their own revenue gap.

Now I'm not saying that a single payer system is not the advisable route for health care in this country. I think its pretty clear that it would be preferable to how things currently work. What I am saying that their is a large and substantial cost to taxpayers at its outset, and any advocate for it needs to keep that in the forefront of their mind, and be honest about it.

# ? Nov 13, 2015 16:55

trilobite terror: Oct 20, 2007; BUT MY LIVELIHOOD DEPENDS ON THE FORUMS!

mdemone posted:

If you're going to do it, it has to be done with a stage script that explicitly was designed to do it that way (which obviously this one was not), in order to really flesh out the contrast the director was aiming for here. Basically the play has to be very self-aware that it stars a character played by multiple races, and it has to treat that aspect very carefully.

Which is why 99.9% of the time it's done with a play that everyone knows.

# ? Nov 13, 2015 16:57

happyhippy: Feb 21, 2005; Playing games, watching movies, owning goons. 'sup; Pillbug

The US health system has a lot of 'fake' costs though.

For example you get charged $30-$50 dollars for use of some paper towels or whatever.
When the price of them is like 5 cents.

In a universal healthcare system this rip off inflation would stop as the governing agency can ask for justification for the prices.

# ? Nov 13, 2015 16:57

Typical Pubbie: May 10, 2011

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_mcie4Nasw

# ? Nov 13, 2015 16:58

FAUXTON: Jun 2, 2005; spero che tu stia bene

WhiskeyJuvenile posted:

They should make a race-reversed White Man's Burden

makes u think

It's incumbent on members of the black race to drag the white race out of its primitive state and toward the light of civilization.

That's what a lot of black activists have been trying to do for like ever.

# ? Nov 13, 2015 17:03

Typical Pubbie: May 10, 2011

FAUXTON posted:

It's incumbent on members of the black race to drag the white race out of its primitive state and toward the light of civilization.

That's what a lot of black activists have been trying to do for like ever.

# ? Nov 13, 2015 17:05

Fried Chicken: Jan 9, 2011; Don't fry me, I'm no chicken!

Let's stumble down to Louisiana and take a gander at the state of the race

Democrat John Bel Edwards has raised a respectable 1.5 million since November 2nd

Republican David Vitter has raised 130,000

Well then

# ? Nov 13, 2015 17:13

OAquinas: Jan 27, 2008; Biden has sat immobile on the Iron Throne of America. He is the Master of Malarkey by the will of the gods, and master of a million votes by the might of his inexhaustible calamari.

Fried Chicken posted:

Let's stumble down to Louisiana and take a gander at the state of the race

Democrat John Bel Edwards has raised a respectable 1.5 million since November 2nd

Republican David Vitter has raised 130,000

Well then

So he might have a remote chance of winning, unless Louisiana is full of stereotypical low-info republican voters.

# ? Nov 13, 2015 17:15

mdemone: Mar 14, 2001

OAquinas posted:

So he might have a remote chance of winning, unless Louisiana is full of stereotypical low-info republican voters.

Louisiana is full of stereotypical low-info republican voters.

# ? Nov 13, 2015 17:17

Typical Pubbie: May 10, 2011

http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2015/11/uno_poll_governors_race.html

Edwards is leading Vitter by 22 points in the latest poll. Hopefully Louisiana voters will elect him so he can pass the Medicaid expansion. Then they can oust him in the next election for passing the Medicaid expansion.

# ? Nov 13, 2015 17:20

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007; Can't post for 6 hours!

Typical Pubbie posted:

http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2015/11/uno_poll_governors_race.html

Edwards is leading Vitter by 22 points in the latest poll. Hopefully Louisiana voters will elect him so he can pass the Medicaid expansion. Then they can oust him in the next election for passing the Medicaid expansion.

What does the Louisiana legislature look like then? Is there just a guarantee of deadlock?

# ? Nov 13, 2015 17:30

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

Shageletic posted:

What does the Louisiana legislature look like then? Is there just a guarantee of deadlock?

without doing an ounce of research I can assure you it's heavily Repubican

# ? Nov 13, 2015 17:36

Joementum: May 23, 2004; jesus christ

Quote of the morning, �There�s new speech talk � it�s like,safe space, or something like that? I mean, come on." ~ Jeb!

# ? Nov 13, 2015 17:39

Silly Burrito: Nov 27, 2007; SET A COURSE FOR
THE FLAVOR QUADRANT

evilweasel posted:

without doing an ounce of research I can assure you it's heavily Repubican

Ding ding! You win a red jellybean!

Here's a story of how Vitter helped create that Republican majority.

http://theadvocate.com/news/acadiana/13961917-84/david-vitter-helped-create-the

quote:

Vitter was the main legislative sponsor of the 1995 term limits measure that forced slightly more than half of all Louisiana House members in 2007 to relinquish their seats. Most of them were Democrats.

Vitter also created a super PAC that supported at least two dozen Republicans who won legislative races in the 2007 and 2011 elections and that paved the way for the party to gain control of the Legislature for the first time since the post-Civil War Reconstruction era. At least 20 of the Republicans who won office in those two elections are serving in either the Louisiana House or the state Senate.

The GOP takeover prompted many Republicans to throw bouquets his way.

�David Vitter did everything he could for us to eventually build a majority,� Jim Tucker, who headed the Republican House delegation leading up to the 2007 elections, said in an interview two years ago. �We wouldn�t have taken the majority then without Vitter.�

# ? Nov 13, 2015 17:42

Joementum: May 23, 2004; jesus christ

Paining by Elizabeth Roskam, wife of House Ways & Means Chairman Peter Roskam (R-IL6), who you'll remember as the guy from the Benghazi hearing who kept asking Clinton why we attacked Libya, titled Chaotic Dome.

# ? Nov 13, 2015 17:44

DaveWoo: Aug 14, 2004; Fun Shoe

Joementum posted:

Quote of the morning, �There�s new speech talk � it�s like,safe space, or something like that? I mean, come on." ~ Jeb!

"But enough about the last Republican debate..."

# ? Nov 13, 2015 17:47

Typical Pubbie: May 10, 2011

evilweasel posted:

without doing an ounce of research I can assure you it's heavily Repubican

But... but... executive fiat? :negative:

# ? Nov 13, 2015 17:47

Cheesus: Oct 17, 2002; Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.; Yam Slacker

Dapper_Swindler posted:

seems to me like they should just give into their base and take the election loss, then blame the nutjobs after said loss and try to purge the party of unusable nutters.

The Kentucky elections are barely a week behind us we still think that there's no way, zero-chance, never-in-a-million-years that the American people won't vote for Trump, Carson, or a half-empty box of cereal over Clinton/Sanders?

# ? Nov 13, 2015 17:50

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Cheesus posted:

The Kentucky elections are barely a week behind us we still think that there's no way, zero-chance, never-in-a-million-years that the American people won't vote for Trump, Carson, or a half-empty box of cereal over Clinton/Sanders?

Off-year elections are different from Presidential elections, so yes.

# ? Nov 13, 2015 17:54

DaveWoo: Aug 14, 2004; Fun Shoe

Cheesus posted:

The Kentucky elections are barely a week behind us we still think that there's no way, zero-chance, never-in-a-million-years that the American people won't vote for Trump, Carson, or a half-empty box of cereal over Clinton/Sanders?

Kentucky voting for a Republican governor wasn't exactly an unexpected outcome. Disappointing, yes, but not unexpected.

# ? Nov 13, 2015 17:55

Chokes McGee: Aug 7, 2008; This is Urotsuki.

Mr Interweb posted:

Nooooo! This is terrible news. I want his dumbass to stay in the race as long as possible. He can't flame out so soon.

You have zero to worry about and all the time in the world to laugh about people saying this is the nail in the coffin. Trump has been doing this all election and reaping ~~huge~~ yooj benefits. This will, in fact, be the interview that reinvigorates his sagging poll numbers.

Trump's gonna Trump and there's not a drat thing anyone can do about it. :getin:

# ? Nov 13, 2015 17:57

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007; Can't post for 6 hours!

evilweasel posted:

without doing an ounce of research I can assure you it's heavily Repubican

With a little bit of research, looks like at least the Senate is just barely so

quote:

The Republicans gained control of the chamber in 2011 after a special election in District 26 brought victory to their nominee, Jonathan W. Perry. Previously the Democratic Party held a majority in the Senate. The Senate President is a Democrat-turned-Republican, John Alario from Westwego.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_State_Senate

This little bit of research turned to a goddamned deep dive of course, thank you internet. I found this particularily dispiriting article on the effects of Superpacs on downticket elections somewhow.

quote:

Not all states, cities and municipalities hold elections on even-numbered years. On Nov. 3, voters in Kentucky and Mississippi will hold gubernatorial and legislative elections, and voters in New Jersey and Virginia will vote on legislative candidates. Louisiana held its pre-runoff election for governor and many other down-ballot races on Oct. 24, and will hold a runoff on Nov. 21. Many other cities and municipalities have held or will hold elections this year, including Chicago, Philadelphia, Nashville and Dallas, among many others.

Super PACs and nonprofits -- in some cases connected to a single candidate -- have taken on a dominant role in many of these elections. Super PAC spending on state and local elections often has more of a direct influence on government than spending on the more talked-about 2016 presidential election. In many cases, donations to these unlimited money groups come from developers, contractors and special interest groups looking to gain special favors from their local government.

�When you look at smaller races, the relative importance of outside spending increases, both in terms of outcome of election and influencing policy,� said Rick Hasen, a University of California, Irvine law professor and author of the forthcoming Plutocrats United: Campaign Money, the Supreme Court, and the Distortion of American Elections.

quote:

Super PACs injected nearly $1 million into the mayoral election in Nashville, Tennessee, that saw the election of Megan Barry on Sept. 10. Citizen Super PAC, which backed Barry�s opponent, David Fox, received more than $800,000 from Fox�s brother, George Fox.

A debate over the development of a toll road in Dallas led businessmen involved in city council races to create opposing super PACs. Wealthy businessmen including billionaire Harlan Crow, oilman Ray Hunt and investor Al Hill Jr. made five-figure donations to For Our Community, the pro-toll road super PAC. Coalition for a New Dallas, the anti-toll road super PAC, received $150,000 from Trammell Crow Jr.

quote:

The group stated that all of its funding came from America�s Future First, a 527 group registered with the Internal Revenue Service. That confusion was cleared up when America�s Future First disclosed that its donors were Fairview Insurance Agency and Adams, Rehmann & Heggan Associates. Both companies held contracts with the city�s government, and the council members they opposed were critical of the contracts.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/2015-elections-super-pac_5633d165e4b0c66bae5c7bbb

The whole article is worth a read.

# ? Nov 13, 2015 17:58

Sulphagnist: Oct 10, 2006; WARNING! INTRUDERS DETECTED

Joementum posted:

Paining by Elizabeth Roskam, wife of House Ways & Means Chairman Peter Roskam (R-IL6), who you'll remember as the guy from the Benghazi hearing who kept asking Clinton why we attacked Libya, titled Chaotic Dome.

I actually remember Peter Roskam from this. His surname does sound like an ancient Sumerian spell.

# ? Nov 13, 2015 17:58

hobbesmaster: Jan 28, 2008

DaveWoo posted:

Kentucky voting for a Republican governor wasn't exactly an unexpected outcome. Disappointing, yes, but not unexpected.

Actually it was rather unexpected.

# ? Nov 13, 2015 18:01

James Garfield: May 5, 2012; Am I a manipulative abuser in real life, or do I just roleplay one on the Internet for fun? You decide!

Cheesus posted:

The Kentucky elections are barely a week behind us we still think that there's no way, zero-chance, never-in-a-million-years that the American people won't vote for Trump, Carson, or a half-empty box of cereal over Clinton/Sanders?

The presidential election isn't held only in Kentucky with 30 percent turnout.
The Democrats aren't guaranteed to win by any means, but the paths to a Republican president don't involve Trump or Carson winning the nomination.

# ? Nov 13, 2015 18:02

Crain: Jun 27, 2007; I had a beer once with Stephen Miller and now I like him.

I also tried to ban someone from a Discord for pointing out what an unrelenting shithead I am! I'm even dumb enough to think it worked!

So Howard University's "deadline" of 10am given in the threat on 4chan has come and gone, however there's still a large police presence on campus.

Additionally Bowie State University has had their own swastika drawn on a student center named after MLK.

This Washington Post Piece goes into a decent fresher on what's been going on around the country in regards to what seems to be turning into a student movement across the country.

# ? Nov 13, 2015 18:05

BI NOW GAY LATER: Jan 17, 2008; So people stop asking, the "Bi" in my username is a reference to my love for the two greatest collegiate sports programs in the world, the Virginia Tech Hokies and the Marshall Thundering Herd.

Cheesus posted:

The Kentucky elections are barely a week behind us we still think that there's no way, zero-chance, never-in-a-million-years that the American people won't vote for Trump, Carson, or a half-empty box of cereal over Clinton/Sanders?

Ah yes, Kentucky, which last voted for a Democrat in a national election in...1996

# ? Nov 13, 2015 18:06

Maarek: Jun 9, 2002; Your silence only incriminates you further.

Cheesus posted:

The Kentucky elections are barely a week behind us we still think that there's no way, zero-chance, never-in-a-million-years that the American people won't vote for Trump, Carson, or a half-empty box of cereal over Clinton/Sanders?

There are a lot of people who follow politics who seem to overestimate the Democratic party's demographic advantage in the Presidential race. This leads to ridiculous things like the annual pronouncement of the death of the GOP by armchair pundits even as they take over more state legislatures and statehouses. I don't think Trump can win as a general election candidate but I also believe someone with his pseudo-fascist platform could most definitely win if they were smarter and had better political acumen than he does.

I'm just going to go ahead and say that anyone who thinks there's absolutely no chance of someone like Rubio winning this election is delusional or engaging in wishful thinking.

# ? Nov 13, 2015 18:08

BI NOW GAY LATER: Jan 17, 2008; So people stop asking, the "Bi" in my username is a reference to my love for the two greatest collegiate sports programs in the world, the Virginia Tech Hokies and the Marshall Thundering Herd.

Maarek posted:

There are a lot of people who follow politics who seem to overestimate the Democratic party's demographic advantage in the Presidential race. This leads to ridiculous things like the annual pronouncement of the death of the GOP by armchair pundits even as they take over more state legislatures and statehouses. I don't think Trump can win as a general election candidate but I also believe someone with his pseudo-fascist platform could most definitely win if they were smarter and had better political acumen than he does.

I'm just going to go ahead and say that anyone who thinks there's absolutely no chance of someone like Rubio winning this election is delusional or engaging in wishful thinking.

I don't think there's a zero-chance of Rubio winning, but I would not put his odds very high because of the demographic and turnout advantages that Democrats have in presidential elections. Rubio would possibly win Florida, but I don't see him being particularly able to mobilize support in states that Romney lost Obama otherwise. The problem for Rubio (and really any Republican) is that their margin of error is extremely slim. He basically has to win 5 out of 6 of NV, FL, VA, CO, OH, and IA.

BI NOW GAY LATER fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Nov 13, 2015

# ? Nov 13, 2015 18:15

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# ? May 23, 2024 21:22

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

Shageletic posted:

With a little bit of research, looks like at least the Senate is just barely so

Your link says it's 26-13, that's a Republican supermajority.

# ? Nov 13, 2015 18:16

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > USPOL Nov: I would've preferred Huckabee have said nothing at all

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