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SirKibbles posted:Praise be to spare ribs, use not garbage non mustard based sauces You fool, that triggers saucechat! You'll kill us all!
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Nov 14, 2015 17:53
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Joementum posted:Here's a thread for tonight's debate: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3751485
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Nov 14, 2015 17:53
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evilweasel posted:Sure. But it's not like we've found the dining hall serving a meatless meal for no reason and we're wondering if it's because vegetarians pushed for meat to be removed. We are discussing a case where that was the entire point. Actually, if we look at what was posted: Electric Bugaloo posted:When I was a student a few years ago, my college tried to institute a bimonthly "Meatless Monday" at one dining hall (of two) on campus as a carbon footprint experiment. Within about 12 hours, a collective of white dudes had counter-protests going. People's property got defaced with raw meat and somebody scrawled racial and sexual epithets on one of the organizers' (female of color) door. By the end of the week, some of these guys had been interviewed by the WSJ and (I believe) FOX News and some radio stations as a textbook example of college liberalism run amok and oppressing rights (did I mention that meat was still amply on the menu everywhere but in that one dining hall?). By that point, the school folded and decided that the negative attention wasn't worth it. it seems that the official impetus wasn't vegetarianism, but environmentalism.
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Nov 14, 2015 17:55
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The dining hall wasn't trying to convince people to become vegetarian, they were trying to indicate that meat is a carbon emissions intensive product. If they had said "we're not serving meat in one of the halls a couple days a month due to budgetary concerns" no one would have given a poo poo. That is exactly what they were doing, just they were budgeting for carbon emissions instead of $$$.
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Nov 14, 2015 17:57
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stinkles1112 posted:In what way is it different Vegetarian is a meal type, meat is murder is an opinion. Now this may be hard to realize if you're not a god drat moron but vegetarian day is the exact same as tex mex day, or chinese food day, or loving breakfast for dinner day. evilweasel posted:It's an attempt to push your ideology and trying to justify it by saying that you can go out of your way to avoid it. It's precisely on point: it is more obvious, but that's the point of a comparison - to draw out the issues that are being obscured. The "difference" here is you're fine with one but the other one (because I selected it to be) irritates you. That's the point of the comparison: to swap the ideology that you support with the one you oppose. (Meat based false equivalence pun) farraday fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Nov 14, 2015 |
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Nov 14, 2015 17:57
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SirKibbles posted:He's a goon face it we're the weirdos here. Meat is a commandment and bacon is it's prophet here. You know his point isn't actually about meat, right?
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Nov 14, 2015 17:58
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Actually, if we look at what was posted: Yeah but come on, nobody then believed that and I don't believe it now.
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Nov 14, 2015 17:59
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ein reich ein volk ein bacon
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Nov 14, 2015 17:59
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evilweasel posted:Yeah but come on, nobody then believed that and I don't believe it now. Are you seriously going down the "they're coming for our 
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Nov 14, 2015 18:03
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FlamingLiberal posted:I guess at least it's not a GOP debate after all the insanity yesterday? I'm just afraid Hillary is going to rush headlong into Hawk mode after this. My first response was to groan as I imagined how bad the GOP field were gonna be just a day after the Paris attacks. Then I clicked the thread and remembered that the Dems have debates too and breathed a sigh of relief.  I mean, there might be a dip into Hawk territory, but Clinton at her Hawkiest is a dove compared to anyone on the GOP side.
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Nov 14, 2015 18:04
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Goons are fat and terrible. But it's fascinating to see how little it takes to get goons railing against "oppression" in the same way right-wingers railed against Michelle Obama. Eat healthy???? gently caress YOUUUUUUUUUUU *shoves bacon into gaping maw*
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Nov 14, 2015 18:06
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MickeyFinn posted:You know his point isn't actually about meat, right? You know what this evilweasel would mock anyone making his argument if it was any other topic, but meat is sacred and goons goons never change. WhiskeyJuvenile posted:ein reich ein volk ein bacon Ich bin ein meat eater
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Nov 14, 2015 18:07
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Are you seriously going down the "they're coming for our I'm saying that I assume "meatless monday" was actually a vegetarian thing, and that everyone also understood it to be, not an environmental thing. Looking through trivially obvious facades isn't anywhere close to tinfoil ranting that we must stop this meatless monday or soon meat will be banned. It's saying "come on, nobody actually believed this was an environmental thing instead of a vegetarian thing". I really do not get how people are having such difficulty with the idea that something can be annoying. This is not a case where it's an outrage, it's a case where it's annoying and people will be right to be annoyed. Annoyed isn't ranting about how they're coming to take your meat and ranting about the meat-grabbers, its "this is annoying, stop it". People seem unable to grasp that there's a level between "nobody reasonable can be unhappy about this" and "moral outrage".
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Nov 14, 2015 18:10
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Are you seriously going down the "they're coming for our Got in on the ground floor of Obama's Vegetable Conspiracy, looks like the rest of you flesh eaters will be first against the wall. 
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Nov 14, 2015 18:10
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evilweasel posted:I'm saying that I assume "meatless monday" was actually a vegetarian thing, and that everyone also understood it to be, not an environmental thing. Looking through trivially obvious facades isn't anywhere close to tinfoil ranting that we must stop this meatless monday or soon meat will be banned. It's saying "come on, nobody actually believed this was an environmental thing instead of a vegetarian thing". evil remember the christian parents demanding yoga be thrown out of the schools because it was indoctrinating children away from jesus? That is you, but with bacon.
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Nov 14, 2015 18:11
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Time for some bleed-over from the Paris Attacks thread (in so far as it relates to USPOL): Conservatives now have yet another tool in their belt to use to dismissively wave away any discussion about Mizzou. A Syrian passport was found near the body of one of the terrorists, and was identified as belonging to someone who may have been a refugee who entered Europe through Greece. So you can expect that to become a talking-point/question for the various presidential candidates (for seriousness of said candidate on terrorism, for closing the Mexican border, etc.)
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Nov 14, 2015 18:11
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Are you seriously going down the "they're coming for our When I'm cramming taco bell down my gullet as I'm idling in my hummer the first thing I'm thinking about is how this impacts my carbon footprint
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Nov 14, 2015 18:12
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Precambrian posted:I went to a Jesuit University, so Fridays in Lent were partially meatless. And it wasn't even fully meatless, there were a ton of ways to get meat from dining services, just that the usual entrees were fish entrees, plus a rice and beans dish as part of a sustainability challenge-thing. Going to a religious school is a little different - if you attend Brigham Young University you know up-front there's going to be some religious stuff involved. That's a little different from Random Liberal Arts College. evilweasel posted:Yeah but come on, nobody then believed that and I don't believe it now. Meatless Mondays are explicitly not about environmental reasons. quote:There's a movement afoot aimed at changing the way we eat one day a week. Beef and lamb are by far the worst offender as far as environmental impact. The impact of someone who eats pork, chicken, or fish is basically the same as a vegetarian. White meats and fish are also much healthier than red meats. I love fish and I wish it was cheaper. 
Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Nov 14, 2015 |
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Nov 14, 2015 18:14
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evilweasel posted:I'm saying that I assume "meatless monday" was actually a vegetarian thing, and that everyone also understood it to be, not an environmental thing. Looking through trivially obvious facades isn't anywhere close to tinfoil ranting that we must stop this meatless monday or soon meat will be banned. It's saying "come on, nobody actually believed this was an environmental thing instead of a vegetarian thing". You could assume whatever you want, or you could go to the website promoting Meatless Mondays and look for yourself. It's about reducing consumption of meat for environmental and health reasons, not about vegetarianism (which is about eliminating all meat for usually moral reasons) or veganism (which is about eliminating all animal products for usually moral reasons). So no, it's not a logical reaction, it's an irrational hysterical reaction the likes of which you would mock when it comes to guns. quote:I really do not get how people are having such difficulty with the idea that something can be annoying. This is not a case where it's an outrage, it's a case where it's annoying and people will be right to be annoyed. Annoyed isn't ranting about how they're coming to take your meat and ranting about the meat-grabbers, its "this is annoying, stop it". People seem unable to grasp that there's a level between "nobody reasonable can be unhappy about this" and "moral outrage". The response that is being discussed was not "people being annoyed" (as people are probably constantly at the lovely food dining halls usually have), but outrage including property damage and threatening behavior towards individuals, to the point where one dining hall not serving meat on a Monday every couple of weeks was canceled in fear. Basically: farraday posted:evil remember the christian parents demanding yoga be thrown out of the schools because it was indoctrinating children away from jesus? That is you, but with bacon.
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Nov 14, 2015 18:16
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After a quick search for reactions against meatless mondays and finding only one news story about a uni in Nebraska, I've reached the conclusion that the problem is white people.
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Nov 14, 2015 18:17
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farraday posted:For two Mondays a month? One of my dining halls had lovely theme dinners roughly that often, was I being coerced into Tacos? Actually the trend nowadays is towards dining halls that offer multiple different types of cusine. The company my father-in-law works for is currently working on this: quote:Nine distinct venues in the dining room will allow guests to select from Asian cuisine, home-style classics, pizza or pasta choices, Latin dishes, deli sandwiches and wraps, breakfast fare, a full grill menu, salad bar with fresh cut fruit, and a full dessert station specializing in crepes. Pretty sure they already upgraded another cafeteria there to something similar a couple years ago. Even your old crappy 60s-vintage cafeterias typically have a mainline, a salad bar, a sandwich counter, and a grill. So no, the main line serving tacos is not coercive in the same fashion as the whole cafeteria not serving meat of any kind. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Nov 14, 2015 |
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Nov 14, 2015 18:20
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Tarezax posted:After a quick search for reactions against meatless mondays and finding only one news story about a uni in Nebraska, I've reached the conclusion that the problem is white people. A smart and correct conclusion. loving Gaul barbarians attacking Africa and Persia I tell ya old habits die hard.
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Nov 14, 2015 18:20
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Absurd Alhazred posted:The response that is being discussed was not "people being annoyed" (as people are probably constantly at the lovely food dining halls usually have), but outrage including property damage and threatening behavior towards individuals, to the point where one dining hall not serving meat on a Monday every couple of weeks was canceled in fear. No it's not. Nobody is justifying or even discussing that response, because it's unjustifiable. What I was discussing when I started this line of discussion was: evilweasel posted:Something like that is going to get a reaction because it's imposing your ideology on people in a tangible way that they don't like. People aren't upset 'meatless monday' is an option, they're upset someone's trying to mandate it. Doesn't justify racial epithets or the like but it's definitely something that you can expect a pushback on and frankly the pushback is correct. What I am discussing is that people will be annoyed, and why they'll be annoyed. As I said, I do not understand what the difficulty is in understanding there is a spectrum between "there is no reasonable objection to this" and "moral outrage", but the only arguments people are able to make on your side are precisely trying to pretend there's nothing in between and that I must be morally outraged at the idea. If you want to compare this to guns you need me ranting about how this is just one step in a plot to take all my meat, which again, is not something I've said or could be inferred from my posts. It's just baffling inability to understand anything between zero and pitchforks.
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Nov 14, 2015 18:22
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Paul MaudDib posted:Actually the trend nowadays is towards dining halls that offer multiple different types of cusine. The company my father-in-law works for is currently working on this: One dining hall out two is not coercive, then. Students could just go to the other one, instead of throwing raw meat at people's cars, etc.
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Nov 14, 2015 18:22
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Absurd Alhazred posted:One dining hall out two is not coercive, then. Students could just go to the other one, instead of throwing raw meat at people's cars, etc. Making the entire dining hall meatless is coercive, yes. This is another thing that has levels, it's not binary. It's not heavily coercive but the distinction is if people are trying to "convince" people or "coerce" them. There's not any convincing going on with this - there's coercion. It is mild coercion but the main point is that it is not an attempt to convince people. You can use all sorts of words instead of coercion, but the basic point is that you're not trying to suggest to people they should do this by making it more attractive or explaining the benefits or whatever, you're trying to make any option other than doing it harder. Students should not express their displeasure by throwing meat or anything else like that, but they are allowed to express displeasure over it rather than just going out of their way - through complaining to the school and asking them to cancel it, expressing displeasure when asked, etc. Again, there's things between compliance and throwing meat/shouting epithets/going on fox.
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Nov 14, 2015 18:26
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evilweasel posted:No it's not. Nobody is justifying or even discussing that response, because it's unjustifiable. What I was discussing when I started this line of discussion was: It's funny that you're claiming nuance when you're seriously saying having a vegetarian day si the same thing as being forced to listen to a baptist while you eat. I'm not noticing a lot of nuance in your argument. It's like reading comments on Reason.
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Nov 14, 2015 18:27
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Do you guys also feel that the 99% of time when the dining hall was serving bacon and burgers and poo poo on prominent display was 'coercing' people who don't eat meat, or does this insane outrage only apply to when your food of choice involves walking a few extra yards to get one day.
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Nov 14, 2015 18:27
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Absurd Alhazred posted:One dining hall out two is not coercive, then. Students could just go to the other one, instead of throwing raw meat at people's cars, etc. "Closing some of the abortion clinics isn't coercive. You can always drive to another one instead of getting histronic."
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Nov 14, 2015 18:28
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Paul MaudDib posted:"Closing some of the abortion clinics isn't coercive. You can always drive to another one instead of getting histronic." Yea these are exactly the same situations
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Nov 14, 2015 18:28
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farraday posted:It's funny that you're claiming nuance when you're seriously saying having a vegetarian day si the same thing as being forced to listen to a baptist while you eat. I'm not noticing a lot of nuance in your argument. I am well aware that you're not noticing a lot of nuance in my argument, but that's not because it's not there.
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Nov 14, 2015 18:29
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Yea these are exactly the same situations You just don't understand the nuance. evilweasel posted:I am well aware that you're not noticing a lot of nuance in my argument, but that's not because it's not there. Or you've backed yourself into a corner with a stupid argument and are trying to claim nuance instead of ever admitting in any way you might be wrong. farraday fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Nov 14, 2015 |
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Nov 14, 2015 18:29
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Do you guys also feel that the 99% of time when the dining hall was serving bacon and burgers and poo poo on prominent display was 'coercing' people who don't eat meat, or does this insane outrage only apply to when your food of choice involves walking a few extra yards to get one day. No because the cafeteria also has vegetarian options. Why is this so hard for you to get?
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Nov 14, 2015 18:29
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Paul MaudDib posted:"Closing some of the abortion clinics isn't coercive. You can always drive to another one instead of getting histronic." This comparison only works if there is one dining hall in the whole state and you need a three-day waiting period to order your pasta
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Nov 14, 2015 18:29
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When I was at college, a ham sandwich was always my fallback option for lunch/dinner I would have been pretty pissed if I couldn't have had my sandwich if I wanted one SirKibbles posted:He's a goon face it we're the weirdos here. Meat is a commandment and bacon is it's prophet here. Mustard sauces are garbage
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Nov 14, 2015 18:29
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Do you guys also feel that the 99% of time when the dining hall was serving bacon and burgers and poo poo on prominent display was 'coercing' people who don't eat meat, or does this insane outrage only apply to when your food of choice involves walking a few extra yards to get one day. I would agree with vegetarian students who were annoyed if one dining hall deliberately had no vegetarian options, yes.
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Nov 14, 2015 18:30
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Christ guys I like meat too but this is 100% worse than even the most smug veagans ever can be. Comparing yourself to someone being denied an abortion in her city or being forced to listen to religious conversion attempts because one building out of others within walking distance didn't have hamburgers one day?
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Nov 14, 2015 18:30
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Yea these are exactly the same situations But you're not going to elaborate how they're different? It's the same approach - choices deemed inappropriate are cracked down upon by making it more difficult to access them.
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Nov 14, 2015 18:32
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So are people entitled to have the institutions around them serve the kind of food that they desire specifically? If so, I've been coerced for decades into eating white people food. Better get the hatchet out and start collecting scalps in response this injustice. Reminds me of when our favorite university closed down the greasy spoon serving patty melts and other favorites and reopened it as an ala carte asian place with pho and spring rolls. People lost their poo poo at this attempt of liberal PC coercion.
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Nov 14, 2015 18:33
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evilweasel posted:Making the entire dining hall meatless is coercive, yes. This is another thing that has levels, it's not binary. If people just didn't eat the meat then it would be wasted, because the dining hall would still be offering it. What you're suggesting is that maybe they should have had some kind of a feedback process before setting up this experiment, except I'm guessing there was one. Even if there wasn't, it was an experiment, so if people were so annoyed they could have provided feedback afterwards and this could have ended without raw meat on people's cars and going to Fox News crying about those drat liberals. I again don't see the difference between this and any other limitation on the variety of food in dining halls, which is usually unsatisfactory, and if anything provides little to no possibility for vegetarians. I doubt that this annoyance would get as flattering an overview by Fox News or whatever. It seems very clear that some people's annoyance is more equal than others`, which is the real point of the original post.
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Nov 14, 2015 18:34
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Absurd Alhazred posted:One dining hall out two is not coercive, then. Students could just go to the other one, instead of throwing raw meat at people's cars, etc. You know how you can get so collectivist and for the common good that you stop thinking about individual people? America's real close to the end of the other end of that spectrum. I mean sure writing racial and sexist slurs being seen as a valid response to what is at best an annoyance is totally going to cause major problems later but what did you expect people to walk 100 or so feet to the nearest food place or the other food hall,why should I have to do that it's literally the same as forcing me to sit through a religious sermon because both if these things inconvenience me. What do you mean one of those seems way worse gently caress you jackboot. DOOP posted:Mustard sauces are garbage Now I'm going to be a nice and assume you mean a properly cooked meat doesn't need sauce because otherwise 
SirKibbles fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Nov 14, 2015 |
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Nov 14, 2015 18:34
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