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Sucrose posted:How can a whole country's dominant political force be a regional group? Bosniaks are just a plurality, not majority, in Bosnia. There is a large amount of Serbs and Croats in the country as well, and the country itself has a federal structure. Here's the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina:  The Federation of Bosnia & Herzegovina is dominated by Bosniaks and Croats (who make up approx. 48% and 17% of the total population of the Republic), whereas the Republica Srpska by Serbs (who make up ~37% of the total population). Republica Srpska is essentially what you get when you have Serb nationalists being mad that the Greater Serbia project didn't pan out all that well and start a civil war over it. As for the Brčko District... quote:The Brčko District (pronounced [br̩̂t͡ʃkɔː]; Serbo-Croatian: Brčko distrikt/Брчко дистрикт) in northeastern Bosnia and Herzegovina is a neutral, self-governing administrative unit, under the sovereignty of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It is formally part of both entities of Bosnia and Herzegovina: the Republika Srpska and the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Wikipedia has ethnic maps of Bosnia, but they are from 1991 data and so rather outdated:  Because of this weird-rear end set-up Bosnia also does not have a singular head of state, but the Bosniaks, Serbs, and Croats each elect a president, whose combined term is 4 years, and the chairmanship rotates between them every 8 months... 
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Nov 14, 2015 12:27
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YF-23 posted:Republica Srpska is essentially what you get when you have Serb nationalists being mad that the Greater Serbia project didn't pan out all that well and start a civil war over it. I am just going to say that I disagree with this statement.
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Nov 14, 2015 12:31
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I only know so much, and I'm no expert so I may well have gotten things wrong. Feel free to correct me or give more details.
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Nov 14, 2015 12:38
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YF-23 posted:I only know so much, and I'm no expert so I may well have gotten things wrong. Feel free to correct me or give more details. The thing is that, there's grains of truth in what you said. Our nutjob nationalism did have a significant part in the poo poo that happened in Bosnia. Thanks to the fact that Serbian forces had access to more heavy weaponry than others, it was even able to punch above its weight in terms of atrocities comitted. Yet for all the poo poo Greater Serbia fantasy caused, it's not the cause of the civil war. It's one of the fuels for that fire, including Croatian and Bosniak nationalism and religious fundamentalism (Notable example of the kind of poo poo that nobody cares about now, Serb Muslims got horribly hosed over thanks to a mix of Serbian Orthodox Islamophobia, Bosniak nationalism, and Croatian hate double down - most of them either eventually converted to Orthodoxy or started calling themselves Bosniak), problems caused by communist rule, and many other factors. What started it is the intermixed society of Bosnia suddenly being forced to draw the lines of a new state not everyone wanted to be a part of, and nobody wanted to end up on the wrong side of the line. Calling Republika Srpska the result of Serbian nationalism rather than calling the entire current structure of Bosnia and Herzegovina a compromise made to stop violence is a really, really bad thing to do. As for the teritorry ratios, this isn't a boardgame. Some land is capable of supporting more people and has a bigger population density. 50-50 is probably bullshit, but not nearly as much as you might think. The real bullshit is the mass ethnic cleansing that happened and a crystalization of sorts that happened to the population in Bosnia. I mean, it went from being a map-maker's nightmare to fairly neat, clean, and pretty bordered, at the mere cost of untold thousands of human lives. my dad fucked around with this message at 13:01 on Nov 14, 2015 |
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Nov 14, 2015 12:53
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Based on the rhetoric on refugees I've seen, I'm not sure that Sweden is accurate.
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Nov 14, 2015 14:05
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computer parts posted:Based on the rhetoric on refugees I've seen, I'm not sure that Sweden is accurate. It's probably one of those mostly empty places...
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Nov 14, 2015 14:15
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YF-23 posted:Because of this weird-rear end set-up Bosnia also does not have a singular head of state, but the Bosniaks, Serbs, and Croats each elect a president, whose combined term is 4 years, and the chairmanship rotates between them every 8 months... Doesn't even matter because the highest official position is a foreign appointed dictator. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Representative_for_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina
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Nov 14, 2015 14:19
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Paedophile cult isn't a region, though.
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Nov 14, 2015 15:39
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Jerry Cotton posted:Paedophile cult isn't a region, though. 
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Nov 14, 2015 15:50
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ayyyy
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Nov 14, 2015 18:31
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my dad posted:Notable example of the kind of poo poo that nobody cares about now, Serb Muslims got horribly hosed over thanks to a mix of Serbian Orthodox Islamophobia, Bosniak nationalism, and Croatian hate double down - most of them either eventually converted to Orthodoxy or started calling themselves Bosniak Can you explain Serb Muslims? I find it really hard to understand Balkan ethnicities if they go beyond Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs being Muslim, Catholic and Orthodox Yugoslavs respectively.
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Nov 14, 2015 20:38
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Right, it seems to me that the entire reason for there being a distinction at all between the three groups is almost exclusively due to religion, so I'm not sure how Bosniaks differ from Serb muslims. I imagine it has something to do with geographical and historical reasons.
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Nov 14, 2015 20:42
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Phlegmish posted:Right, it seems to me that the entire reason for there being a distinction at all between the three groups is almost exclusively due to religion, so I'm not sure how Bosniaks differ from Serb muslims. Parents 
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Nov 14, 2015 20:45
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Bloodnose posted:Can you explain Serb Muslims? I find it really hard to understand Balkan ethnicities if they go beyond Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs being Muslim, Catholic and Orthodox Yugoslavs respectively. A simple example I know of, my parents' neighbor is a Muslim Serb woman. A notable example would be the writer Meša Selimović, who wrote "Death and the Dervish", a pretty good critique of communist totalitarianism masqueraded as a novel about injustice of the Ottoman rule. A full explanation would be looooooooooong because the situation is a clusterfuck, and Yugoslav war politicking changed many things about the situation (except the clusterfuck part), but the short and only moderately incorrect version would be that Bosniaks are descendants of people who considered their identity as Muslims more important than their non-religious identities at some point in the past, and kept that going culturally. I'm not a fan of the word Bosniak since it carries the implication that Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats are somehow less Bosnian than Bosniaks (while the main distinction in reality is what their respective ancestors did during Ottoman times), and the implication that Bosniaks in Serbia are somehow tied to the state of Bosnia, but what's done is done. That identity exists, whatever it's called, and denying it is bullshit, especially in light of atheist Bosniaks and the like. For an example of a non-Bosniak Slavic Muslim population, you have Goranci, who are right now being forced by Albanians on Kosovo to get "You are Bosniak" education. Most of them have fled Kosovo by now, and many are converting to Orthodox Christianity thanks to the "friendly" actions of other Muslims and a wish to more easily fit in Serbian communities. Basically, if you think we're all Yugoslavs, you're correct. If you don't, and think we're Serbs, Croats, and Bosniaks, that's also fine, but you're incorrect in thinking that it's just a religion based divide, or that it is clear cut in any way. Though the war went a long way to making things "nice and clean", and you still have the Orthodox Church denying the Serbhood of non-Orthodox, the Catholic Church reburrying dead Orthodox Croats as Catholics, and poo poo like that. A surprisingly decent tl;dr version of this would be: Zudgemud posted:Parents
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Nov 14, 2015 21:29
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Bloodnose posted:Can you explain Serb Muslims? I find it really hard to understand Balkan ethnicities if they go beyond Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs being Muslim, Catholic and Orthodox Yugoslavs respectively. I'd like to know about this too. Up to this point I've thought that a Balkan muslim who speaks Serbo-Croatian is a Bosniak. edit: lol of course it gets answered while i was writing my question Hogge Wild fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Nov 14, 2015 |
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Nov 14, 2015 21:31
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Ask yourself this: If a Bavarian (who are noted German Catholics) converts to Protestantism, would he automatically become Saxon (who are noted German Protestants)? Would his Protestant children be Saxon? EDIT: my dad posted:Basically, if you think we're all Yugoslavs, you're correct. If you don't, and think we're Serbs, Croats, and Bosniaks, that's also fine, but you're incorrect in thinking that it's just a religion based divide, or that it is clear cut in any way. Though the war went a long way to making things "nice and clean", and you still have the Orthodox Church denying the Serbhood of non-Orthodox, the Catholic Church reburrying dead Orthodox Croats as Catholics, and poo poo like that. Yeah, this. Nationality is much more complicated than just religion and religious Background, but it would be 99% true in the case of South Slavs. Good enough for a simple answer to a foreigner, but not 100% so don't base any academic papers on it. fuck off Batman fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Nov 14, 2015 |
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Nov 14, 2015 21:34
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Bloodnose posted:Can you explain Serb Muslims? I find it really hard to understand Balkan ethnicities if they go beyond Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs being Muslim, Catholic and Orthodox Yugoslavs respectively. I know a Serbian Muslim, but I never pried into it. The Serbian flag made me rather hesitant.
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Nov 14, 2015 21:53
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Disco Infiva posted:Ask yourself this: If a Bavarian (who are noted German Catholics) converts to Protestantism, would he automatically become Saxon (who are noted German Protestants)? Would his Protestant children be Saxon?
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Nov 14, 2015 22:23
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A Buttery Pastry posted:If he truly embraced the Protestant Ethic, yes.
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Nov 14, 2015 22:35
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Bavaria is a concept that predates the Reformation and did not arise as a result of it. But I'm gathering from my dad's response that Serb muslims are simply South Slavs who converted to Islam at a different time, in a different context and/or with a different emphasis on the respective elements of their identity, so that they're not necessarily the same as 'Bosniaks'. Makes sense.
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Nov 14, 2015 22:42
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Guavanaut posted:Does 'embraced the Protestant Ethic' mean 'moved to Saxony'?
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Nov 14, 2015 22:46
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A Buttery Pastry posted:It means embracing a spirit of thrift, frugality, and hard work. Sounds awful, can I switch to Catholic?
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Nov 14, 2015 22:52
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Byzantine posted:Sounds awful, can I switch to Catholic? Pray 100 Rosaries and we'll talk about it.
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Nov 14, 2015 22:57
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Phlegmish posted:Bavaria is a concept that predates the Reformation and did not arise as a result of it. Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia are concepts that predates Catholic/Orthodox split and did not arise as a result of it. And they definitely predate Ottoman invasion. Byzantine posted:Sounds awful, can I switch to Catholic? If you do you must start worshiping the Pope, it's in the Bible (or so I'm told).
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Nov 14, 2015 22:58
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Disco Infiva posted:Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia are concepts that predates Catholic/Orthodox split and did not arise as a result of it. And they definitely predate Ottoman invasion. Yeah, Serbia and Croatia are among the earliest states in medieval Europe. Bosnia is also distinct, it's just that Bosnians today are called Bosnian Serbs, Bosnian Croats, and (Bosnian) Bosniaks thanks to silly details like over a thousand years of history between then and now. All spoke the exact same loving language even back then, though.
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Nov 14, 2015 23:03
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Byzantine posted:Sounds awful, can I switch to Catholic? Respeccing costs 30 gold I think.
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Nov 14, 2015 23:25
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Nov 15, 2015 04:33
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my dad posted:Bosnia talk Just wanted to say my gf works on the Bosnia desk at state department and really enjoyed hearing your perspective on things. Edit: and also was impressed that the stupid forums I'm "always reading" wasn't just dick jokes for once.
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Nov 15, 2015 06:57
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Hey man, pederasty and homosexuality are entirely different things.
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Nov 15, 2015 10:58
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computer parts posted:Based on the rhetoric on refugees I've seen, I'm not sure that Sweden is accurate. Explain.
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Nov 15, 2015 13:18
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Related question from someone who's very unfamiliar with the subject: What's the key difference between Serbians and Montenegrins? They're Serbo-Croatian-speaking Orthodox Christians too, right? Why did Montenegro wind up becoming its own separate country?
Sucrose fucked around with this message at 13:42 on Nov 15, 2015 |
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Nov 15, 2015 13:40
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Sucrose posted:Related question from someone who's very unfamiliar with the subject: What's the key difference between Serbians and Montenegrins? They're Serbo-Croation-speaking Orthodox Christians too, right? Why did Montenegro wind up becoming its own separate country? Statewise, Montenegro was never fully subjugated by the Ottomans (as in, permanently occupied. Think Afghanistan, as in, what never happened there) thanks to the mountainous terrain of the country and the tribal structure of the population. Post-revolution Serbia and Montenegro never managed to connect their borders until the end of the Balkans Wars, and Yugoslavia was just around the corner at that point. Nationalitywise, the problem is that the notorious cigarette smuggler turned politician Milo Đukanović wants to stay in power in Montenegro (as he's been for a quarter century by now), and forcing Montenegrin as a nationality rather than a regional identity and then going for "independence" was a convenient way to get rid of a shitton of young people who would otherwise vote against him. A ridiculous percentage of Montenegro's population studies/studied in Belgrade, and most of them decided to stay. "Montenegrin" is the only nationality on the Balkans I think is completely made up bullshit, since every single major figure in Montenegro's history* that knew how to write is recorded as saying they're Serbs. Hell, Slobodan Milošević and Boris Tadić would have to count as "Montenegrin" if you accepted it as a nationality. *Except Šćepan Mali, who pretended he was Peter (III) Romanov, rapidly modernized the armies of Montenegro and crushed the armies of the Ottoman Empire and Venice that attempted to invade the tiny country. my dad fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Nov 15, 2015 |
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Nov 15, 2015 13:55
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If it didn't exist, who would the Serbs make lazy Montenegrin jokes about?
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Nov 15, 2015 14:17
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 Burma's got some division going on, huge swaths of the country are under the control of ethnic militias: 
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Nov 15, 2015 14:28
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Cake Smashing Boob posted:Explain. There was a lot of "immigrants stealing our welfare" talk and a lot of it originated from those rural areas. Then again immigration seems to be one of those "left and right in Europe both agree about it" topics so maybe it doesn't count.
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Nov 15, 2015 15:13
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Vivian Darkbloom posted:Burma's got some division going on, huge swaths of the country are under the control of ethnic militias: With foreign boots Have hairless chins And land disputes Myanmar-Shave
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Nov 15, 2015 15:14
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computer parts posted:There was a lot of "immigrants stealing our welfare" talk and a lot of it originated from those rural areas. Only in the sense that both left and right in Sweden have, until very recently, been exceptionally accommodating.
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Nov 15, 2015 15:35
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Riso posted:Hey man, pederasty and homosexuality are entirely different things. Cake Smashing Boob posted:Only in the sense that both left and right in Sweden have, until very recently, been exceptionally accommodating.
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Nov 15, 2015 15:38
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computer parts posted:There was a lot of "immigrants stealing our welfare" talk and a lot of it originated from those rural areas. This is as dumb as saying 'abortion is one of those topics the left and right in the US agree about'. Or as Cake Smashing Boob said, in Sweden it would be correct but only in the sense that multiculturalism is ideologically hegemonic (perhaps until very recently). Phlegmish fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Nov 15, 2015 |
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Nov 15, 2015 16:26
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Why are you bringing homosexuality into this?? Because that's the other thing that place is known for?
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Nov 15, 2015 16:46
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