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I don't think it's manufactured demand. It's the opposite : small dedicated market and tight margins.
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Nov 15, 2015 09:59
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EvilChameleon posted:Reputation for... being expensive? Why do companies do this? Don't they want people to play their games? Reputation for quality games, and they're extremely small press, like literally two dudes in Belgium doing this in their spare time, so they're expensive pretty much out of practicality. FCM is pretty special though since they're already working on a third print run because of how high preorders were this time around.
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Nov 15, 2015 15:43
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taser rates posted:Reputation for quality games, and they're extremely small press, like literally two dudes in Belgium doing this in their spare time, so they're expensive pretty much out of practicality. FCM is pretty special though since they're already working on a third print run because of how high preorders were this time around. For comparison, Roads & Boats was released in I think 1999 and just got its fourth print run this year. Splotter specialise in grail games.
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Nov 15, 2015 17:22
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Trynant posted:Also to respond to this from forever ago, but I don't know if this was gleaning rules before play or your group being incredibly good at managing The point was that there were many potential things you could do on a FCM turn, vs only one thing you can do on let's say a Tzolkin turn. Not that you would always do all of these things on an FCM turn. I also was thinking more of 'do certain designs encourage AP' than 'do AP'ers find a way to AP no matter what'. I think the latter is true, so in thinking about this, I'm not concerned with AP'ers, just with people who would not normally AP but with too many parts to a turn, may take a long time. Don't get me wrong I love FCM, but I do think the turn choice is a price to pay rather than a feature.
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Nov 15, 2015 17:32
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EvilChameleon posted:This is to anyone to answer, I just quoted the most recent post about it, but why is this game so expensive? Because they can get the amount of money they are asking. That's why.  I will note that I am never concerned about pricing for an entertainment product, if it's too expensive for me to afford, then I'll go find cheaper entertainment elsewhere.
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Nov 15, 2015 17:33
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drat Dirty Ape posted:Kemet does not have a lot of luck so it can be tough for a new player to not end up getting trounced by the older players who know a lot of combinations. Also, it sounds like you were playing 3 players which makes it easier for the experienced players to complete their power combinations without any interference. One of the keys to Kemet is realizing that it's more of a resource management game than anything else. This becomes especially important with moving costs (do you pay for movement points to move later for free, or do you rely on teleporting all game at a cost each time?). Also, being able to recall troops for prayer points is very important because leaving a decimated troop on the board is basically a free VP for any player that plays after you. Also, sometimes turn order is very important (going 1st gives you first dibs on tiles to purchase, going last gives you the last move in order to take over a key temple). Responding late since I was at the con the whole time but We were playing with 5. I think one other person hadn't played before, but he went for monsters early which was better than my economic stuff. I asked at the beginning "Are there any specific combinations or individual powers that I should know about before playing" and the guy explaining said "Nah pretty much anything is good" and basically I think he should have given me 4-5 potential "hey these two powers work extremely well together, these three or four are super big awesome ones, instead.  Overall, con was amazing, finally got to try Sekigahara and trounced my friend (also his first time playing) as Tokugawa, I'm almost certainly P500'ing it. Mombasa was a good solid game, I quite liked Among Nobles for its "generations of people" theme like Legacy of Baron whatever and Crusader Kings II.
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Nov 15, 2015 17:41
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Bottom Liner posted:You mean like requiring a lot of limited actions and prayer points and multiple rounds? Are you trying to imply that there is some big barrier to getting a level 4 pyramid and buying level 4 tiles very early in the game? Because I don't think there is, and I was saying they could have designed one.
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Nov 15, 2015 17:48
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When I teach Kemet (which is more often than one might think, actually...) there are usually a few tiles I point out before game start (plus pass around several extra reference sheets) to give newer players some ideas for things to build strategies around: Red: God Speed (+1 movement) Teleport (Teleport from Obelisks) Scarab (+2M/+2S) Initiative (2 Casualties before battle) and explain briefly how it and Retreat work w/rt movement Scorpion (+2M/+2S/+2D) Blue: Legion (+2 troop limit) Reinforcements (4 units at Night) Defensive Victory (VP for winning as defender) Divine Will (Gold token) White: Priestess (-1 cost to buy tiles) Slaves (-1 cost to upgrade) Crusade (+2 power per unit you destroy) Hand of God (Free pyramid upgrade each night) Priest of Ra (-1 cost to everything) Mummy (mention Divine Boon and Vision as well + how they stack) Then talk about Act of God/Victory Point not stacking and how the only way to get a second VP from tiles is Sphinx because it has different art. Quickly remind people about Offensive and Defensive Strategy if I feel they won't immediately get it from the reference card, I don't need to do this that often. Lastly, remind people about Walls and mention Open Walls/Phoenix. Andarel fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Nov 15, 2015 |
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Nov 15, 2015 17:50
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Has anyone gotten a chance to give the new Concordia expansion a go? I'm almost certainly going to buy it but I'd like to know what I'll be getting myself into.
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Nov 15, 2015 18:45
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Kai Tave posted:Yeah, it's a lot for a new player to take in. Even with handouts, which I agree should have come in the box, nobody likes to be stuck with their nose buried in a cheat sheet in order to play a game. Kemet isn't a game I'd drop on unsuspecting/newer players without first making sure that they were really loving stoked to play it (and I did in fact veto playing it last Tuesday when a guy kept insisting that we introduce his friend to it who very clearly looked uncertain at the prospect, we eventually settled on some lighter fare and she seemed to enjoy that a lot more). Nonetheless there aren't that many power tiles, 36 with a number of repeats across the colors and duplicates within. You don't need to be prepared to lose your first 10,000 games before you can start putting strategies of your own together. I've found the exact opposite. It's very easy to teach the game to casual players, as the rules are simple and they're fine with just picking tiles that look cool their first game. It's harder with serious players, as they feel the need to memorize the power tiles and analyze engines before taking their first turn and the simple rules mean that there are a lot of scenarios where the answer is "go on Board Game Geek and find the developer's forum post on the situation". I've taught Kemet to game shop randos in under an hour but teaching it to my somewhat hardcore friends resulted in a 3-hour game. homullus posted:Are you trying to imply that there is some big barrier to getting a level 4 pyramid and buying level 4 tiles very early in the game? Because I don't think there is, and I was saying they could have designed one. I wouldn't cripple the main game just to make the very first game slightly easier. However, I've been kicking around an idea for a "tutorial" mode where the tiles are stacked up in piles by color and cost (e.g. there is only one cost-1 red card available at a time) so you only have to explain 12 tiles at the beginning and then one more every time someone buys one. It'd be a lot less balanced (as buying one tile may make a better one available for an opponent), but that might help hammer home "this is a practice game you don't need to optimize everything". I do think there are design problems with the power tiles though. While the art is beautiful, it's really difficult to tell cards of the same color apart at a distance due to how heavily they implement the red/blue/white color scheme. It probably would have been better to have left red/blue/white for the borders and made each card have discernible art, similar to how Dominion works with actions/victory/treasures.
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Nov 15, 2015 18:55
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Dropped by the FLGS in Whitby while on holiday, and it turned out they had a healthy stock of Codenames! Also grabbed a bunch of blank dice for dirt cheap. A+ holiday. They also had a metric ton of Fury of Dracula, since Whitby is Dracula town, England.
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Nov 15, 2015 19:11
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EvilChameleon posted:Reputation for... being expensive? Why do companies do this? Don't they want people to play their games? Splotter is basically two people that own a store in the Netherlands making games on the side. The games appealed to a niche of insane heavy euro players (me) so much that they kind of have what you could call a success with their side hobby (despite them not having anywhere near the financial success to actual print these games on a large scale or be picked up by bigger publishers). They can't afford to do large print runs and they have to make a profit off what they sell, so small print runs which by nature are more expensive per item printed. Add to this that people love these games so much (or that there are enough scalpers to know people love them) and you have the answer. Yes, Splotter Spellen wants people to enjoy their games. However, their games are pretty drat niche most of the time (no way in hell more than a quarter of the thread would enjoy Antiquity), but the people who play them love them. They even put that kind of disclaimer on their site. quote:....We are famous for making deep, complicated strategy games. The kind of games that can elicit reviews like this:
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Nov 15, 2015 19:13
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homullus posted:Are you trying to imply that there is some big barrier to getting a level 4 pyramid and buying level 4 tiles very early in the game? Because I don't think there is, and I was saying they could have designed one. I don't think you understand Kemet very well. The main barrier is that that strategy sucks. If you rush level 4 anything you are missing out on all of the extremely valuable level 1 tiles everyone fights for which puts you at a large early game disadvantage (until day 3 or so). Look at all you have to do to get a single level four tile: Start 0/1/2 Day 1 Raise Pyramid (leaves you 2 prayer) Pray (4 prayer) Pray 3 actions left (can't really afford a level 3 tile because you need 8 prayer next round) Night bonus - 8 prayer Day 2 Level pyramid 4 prayer Buy tile 0 prayer You are left with no money for teleporting, a weaker army in day one so probably no temples, etc. Rushing level 4 also makes you a target so others can control and utilize your pyramid. It's the equivalent of going all in for one tile at the expense of everything else and hoping it will pay off in the late game. The fact that the game is so well balanced is a testament to the design and there absolutely shouldn't be barriers to the open strategies that the game allows players to explore. The game is great because of the openness while being simple enough to teach in 15 minutes. Bottom Liner fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Nov 15, 2015 |
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Nov 15, 2015 19:50
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On the other hand, I've always had good results from rushing a Level 4 white pyramid on day 1. It gives me a power leg up on day 2, and lets me see what other people are doing before I react.
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Nov 15, 2015 20:05
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Which, +5 Power/turn? I don't mind it because it gives up a bit of pressure in exchange for really strong economy, but if you do that you're basically guaranteeing that somebody else can grab two temples (probably the red player).
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Nov 15, 2015 20:13
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Yeah if you are going to rush something, white is probably the best bet and snowballs harder the earlier you get them.
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Nov 15, 2015 20:37
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Scarab and Legion aren't that different, since Scarab gives you a huge discount on getting to 3-power temples on the first turn and basically guarantees you keep them while Legion means you're really hard to fight at the sacrifice temple.
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Nov 15, 2015 20:46
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Gimnbo posted:Around $13-15. Unless actually acquiring the game sometime before the holidays is more important to you than saving $10 or whatever.
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Nov 15, 2015 21:08
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Bottom Liner posted:I don't think you understand Kemet very well. The main barrier is that that strategy sucks. If you rush level 4 anything you are missing out on all of the extremely valuable level 1 tiles everyone fights for which puts you at a large early game disadvantage (until day 3 or so). Look at all you have to do to get a single level four tile: You start at 5 and gain 2 on the first night phase. Pray, pray puts you at 11 with three actions left, raise your 2 to 4 costs 7, leaves you with 4 to buy a level 4, which will give you one action left. So, what can you buy? Red has Giant Scorpion and Phoenix. These both offer +1 Move and strength boosts, allowing you to take a temple as your fifth action. Potentially this could mean a battle VP, but more realistically it'll just put you in a good economic position with the scariest creatures on the board. As a bonus, the Phoenix gives you the opportunity to go and attack someone's city in the next round. If they've got an understrength troop sitting there you get free VP, or if they've got a high level pyramid of their own. There's also Initiative but I'm not as fond of that as other people are, and it doesn't offer a way to catch up after your big prayer binge. Blue has Reinforcements and Divine Will. Reinforcements can save you dozens of prayer over the game at worst. It's actionless troops that don't even have to be in your city. Divine Will similarly gives you free stuff. It's "less powerful" in terms of effect (having to pay for a normal recruit), but you get time flexibility, as well as the ability to do one action after another (which, among other powerful uses, can act as a pseudo Open Gates) as well as the option for three moves. Both of these are bonuses that work "once per day", effectively, so the earlier you get them the more powerful they are. White is loaded. The Mummy is an excellent creature, giving you the baseline stats of 1 Move/2 Strength as well as an extra DI card. DI cards are the primary source of random variance in Kemet and tilting that in your favor is powerful both mathematically and psychologically. Not only is it a once per day bonus, it's also synergistic with some other powers (most notably, Divine Wound). Priest of Amon will make you ram the prayer cap nearly every day, while Priest of Ra is similarly powerful economic vector. You can't go wrong here, really. Additionally, every level offers Act of God, which is quite good and a nice "consolation prize" if you and someone else go after the same strategy. There's also Blades of Neith at red level 3, which is like getting Charge! and Defense but it stacks with them. You don't need to rush level 4 to get it but I'd be remiss to forget it as I feel it's the only power in Kemet that is notably undercosted for its strength. Similar honorable mentions are Hand of God and Prescience. Now, of course, you shouldn't do this every time. For one, if you're doing a five player game and three other people have already done 2//1/0 for each color, you might not want to do something like this (going Priestess/Charge/Defense would likely be less risky, but you do miss out on the chance for the high level stuff), but it is certainly a viable strategy and absolutely does not put you at a large early game disadvantage. If anything it puts you at an early game advantage because of the no questions asked bonus every day powers kicking in sooner than small cost discounts or occasional +1 strength bonuses.
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Nov 15, 2015 21:42
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Bottom Liner posted:I don't think you understand Kemet very well. I don't think you understand the conversation very well. To reiterate: they could have designed it so that level 4 power tiles could be placed for purchase sometime later than turn 1, and could have done so in a balanced way, which would have mitigated the information download of all those power tiles. They did not, and the game is faster and flatter because they did not do that. Your answer was that the level 4 power tiles are already delayed by the game, which demonstrably isn't true.
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Nov 15, 2015 22:20
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I always introduce kemet using the starter variant where you only use the first two levels of power tiles so this has never been an issue for me in terms of getting people into the game.
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Nov 15, 2015 22:46
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homullus posted:I don't think you understand the conversation very well. To reiterate: they could have designed it so that level 4 power tiles could be placed for purchase sometime later than turn 1, and could have done so in a balanced way, which would have mitigated the information download of all those power tiles. They did not, and the game is faster and flatter because they did not do that. Your answer was that the level 4 power tiles are already delayed by the game, which demonstrably isn't true. Everything I said is still true. You give up a lot of resources and actions to rush level 4, and that in itself is a "barrier" to doing so. If you could start one pyramid at 3 then your points would have a lot more solid ground. There is absolutely no reason the game needs a tech tree or timing unlock for various strategies, that would 100% make the game worse, as well as harder to teach, which is the whole reason the original guy said it should gate higher level tiles, to not make it front loaded. If you can't spend 2 minutes browsing the tile tile guide for a basic understanding then you probably can't functionally play a game like Kemet or you are severely AP prone and should just take your drat turn. Bottom Liner fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Nov 16, 2015 |
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Nov 15, 2015 22:52
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Bottom Liner posted:I didn't include the starting money, but everything else I said is still true. You give up a lot of resources and actions to rush level 4, and that in itself is a "barrier" to doing so. If you could start one pyramid at 3 then your points would have a lot more solid ground. There is absolutely no reason the game needs a tech tree or timing unlock for various strategies, that would 100% make the game worse, as well as harder to teach, which is the whole reason the original guy said it should gate higher level tiles, to not make it front loaded. If you can't spend 2 minutes browsing the tile tile guide for a basic understanding then you probably can't functionally play a game like Kemet or you are severely AP prone and should just take your drat turn. I don't see how having fewer things to consider initially could possibly make the game harder to teach. Please tell me how that could be the case. You're aggressively defending Kemet's honor, and I am sure a Frenchman somewhere is smiling, but your precious jewel remains unsullied. I too like the game as it is (except for the ending). I am saying they could have gated higher power tiles but chose not to, for the sake of more streamlined action; many games unlock new options as they go along without making them worse games. There is nothing about the nature of Kemet that prevented them from designing in that different direction.
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Nov 15, 2015 23:11
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Actually, ignoring specific prerequisites means that people can choose to invest in strength at high cost which means there's a stronger incentive to take people's pyramids. If you needed certain tiles to get other tiles, the whole thing would fall apart once pyramid occupation comes into play. You seem to be aggressively defending your jewel of a variant, but the game works fine without changing the rules to slow it down and flatten early strategy (how would you even pace it? Rushing to 4 or distributing your prayer otherwise is a huge part of the game and Hand of God winning that race is a major strength of the tile). Locking away options to slightly help exactly the first game seems like lazy design at best. Andarel fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Nov 15, 2015 |
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Nov 15, 2015 23:41
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I'm only defending the design choices of having everything available from the start if you choose to use your actions to go for it. Having rules of when you can buy something or prerequisites would absolutely make the game more difficult to teach, because they would be additional rules.
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Nov 16, 2015 00:24
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homullus posted:I don't see how having fewer things to consider initially could possibly make the game harder to teach. Please tell me how that could be the case. Please explain how "and these powerful tiles also exist, but you're not allowed to buy them until you meet these other conditions" is somehow less complicated.
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Nov 16, 2015 00:27
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I played Evolution last night. I'm... on the fence about it. I really, really didn't enjoy my first game, but it was also the first game any of us had ever played, and the learning process got in the way. Anyone have any opinions about this that might sway me towards it?
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Nov 16, 2015 00:30
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sector_corrector posted:I played Evolution last night. I'm... on the fence about it. I really, really didn't enjoy my first game, but it was also the first game any of us had ever played, and the learning process got in the way. Anyone have any opinions about this that might sway me towards it? I like it so far, but it's not a super-deep game or anything. There's sort of a rock-paper-scissors going on between greedy herbivores, defensive herbivores and carnivores. I think the simultaneous play variant is the way to go. I haven't figured out the optimal rate at which to add species, but I think you just want to add what can survive.
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Nov 16, 2015 00:39
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Andarel posted:Actually, ignoring specific prerequisites means that people can choose to invest in strength at high cost which means there's a stronger incentive to take people's pyramids. If you needed certain tiles to get other tiles, the whole thing would fall apart once pyramid occupation comes into play. You guyyyyyyyyyyyyyys why is this even happening Me: I don't think Kemet's front-loaded design is lazy, it is a conscious choice they made to make the game faster. They could have gated off level 4, so that it's not part of the opening tableau. Bottom Liner: You mean, similar to the way it already is gated off?  Me: It's not gated, you can go to level 4 right away. Bottom Liner: You just don't understand Kemet. Me: Look, I'm saying they chose what they chose for a reason. The game is faster the way it is, but would have been easier to teach if they had gone in the other direction. Bottom Liner: Hey! Having anything other than the game as it exists now would 100% be worse and be harder to teach! If you can't make that kind of decision, you can't handle Kemet! Me: How is having fewer choices at the beginning going to make it harder to teach? Anyway, I like the game as it is. The point is that they had the option of making it less front-loaded, and went with the faster game. Andarel: Why do keep defending your *~precious variant~*? The game works fine. Having options come out throughout the game, though? That's lazy design. There is no variant, guys. I'm not attacking Kemet or suggesting they should have done something else. I was saying Kemet's front-loaded design is intentional, acceptable, and not lazy. They made a conscious choice. Jabor posted:Please explain how "and these powerful tiles also exist, but you're not allowed to buy them until you meet these other conditions" is somehow less complicated.
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Nov 16, 2015 00:40
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Jabor posted:Please explain how "and these powerful tiles also exist, but you're not allowed to buy them until you meet these other conditions" is somehow less complicated. Compare ""and these powerful tiles also exist, " to "and these powerful tiles also exist, but you're not allowed to buy them until you meet these other conditions" Seems pretty dry cut to me. I don't have a leg in this argument though, I don't even own Kemet! Dungeon Petz is very fronloaded too, though.
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Nov 16, 2015 01:12
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AMooseDoesStuff posted:Compare Are you being purposefully dense or do you really believe what you just posted?
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Nov 16, 2015 01:14
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Bottom Liner posted:Are you being purposefully dense or do you really believe what you just posted? Well, I mean Petz is pretty frontloaded.
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Nov 16, 2015 01:16
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So, Orleans kickstarter came in today. Holy poo poo, these components are gorgeous. Excited to play the game now. And apparently, the co-op expansion that came out at Essen is really good.
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Nov 16, 2015 04:12
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Went to an Unpub event this weekend with a friend. The games varied from "unplayable on every level" to "polished enough to print". It was p cool, but I found it hilarious that every single designer said at one point or another "I've never seen anyone play this like that". The better designers sat there furiously taking notes and asking questions. One dude quietly started packing up his game while fighting back tears. 10/10. Would play again.
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Nov 16, 2015 04:21
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homullus posted:So, remember wayyyy back to the beginning of the discussion? When people were saying that they found very front-loaded games off-putting and more challenging? I am making the apparently-controversial statement that many, many, many games ramp up their complexity, rather than front-loading it, and that makes it easier to teach, because the new players do not have to consider as many options on the first few turns. Is that . . . is that not true? It seems self-evident to me. The "extra rules" are simply "more tiles will become available later", and could be something as simple as "more tiles will be available on turn 3." As someone who has spent a lot of time teaching people new board games over the last year in my experience if there's a conditional "you can do this ONLY AFTER you've done that" sort of rule then yes, it absolutely is a thing that will trip people up loving constantly. I can just imagine the look on someone's face after I have to explain to them that their aggressive acquisition of a higher-level tile that they're so proud to have pulled off is actually illegal because you remember Bob, those tiles don't become available until the Ra token has moved through the Darkness Zone or whatever. Additional rules become additional speedbumps in peoples' minds, that's a universal constant. So no, I don't think it's self-evident that this would make Kemet easier to teach, nor do I believe it would make it a better game on the whole.
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Nov 16, 2015 04:22
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burger time posted:So, Orleans kickstarter came in today. Holy poo poo, these components are gorgeous. Excited to play the game now. And apparently, the co-op expansion that came out at Essen is really good. Well that is quite exciting. I haven't gotten any type of shipment notification, but hopefully it arrives soon!
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Nov 16, 2015 04:23
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So my friends and I finished our second day of Pandemic Legacy, and poo poo it's so much fun. We're chomping at the bit to play the next game to see what else can happen, because right now some crazy poo poo is going down. This idea of a narrative to a string of board games is really cool, and I like it so much more than Risk Legacy. In Risk, sure, things happen, and things change, but in Pandemic, there's a story (of sorts) that changes and progresses as the game does, which is so drat cool.
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Nov 16, 2015 04:36
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Kai Tave posted:As someone who has spent a lot of time teaching people new board games over the last year in my experience if there's a conditional "you can do this ONLY AFTER you've done that" sort of rule then yes, it absolutely is a thing that will trip people up loving constantly. I can just imagine the look on someone's face after I have to explain to them that their aggressive acquisition of a higher-level tile that they're so proud to have pulled off is actually illegal because you remember Bob, those tiles don't become available until the Ra token has moved through the Darkness Zone or whatever. Additional rules become additional speedbumps in peoples' minds, that's a universal constant. There's a difference between "you can do this ONLY AFTER you've done that" rules, which are hard, and "there will be additional, more powerful choices later for everyone, at a pre-arranged point. I'll address it, and those choices, when we get there." Bob can't acquire the too-powerful tile if it's not out on the table.
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Nov 16, 2015 04:55
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homullus posted:There's a difference between "you can do this ONLY AFTER you've done that" rules, which are hard, and "there will be additional, more powerful choices later for everyone, at a pre-arranged point. I'll address it, and those choices, when we get there." Bob can't acquire the too-powerful tile if it's not out on the table. Should we or should we not gate tiles behind additional rules? Take a loving stance already.
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Nov 16, 2015 05:08
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burger time posted:So, Orleans kickstarter came in today. Holy poo poo, these components are gorgeous. Excited to play the game now. And apparently, the co-op expansion that came out at Essen is really good. The wood goods tokens are kind of a waste; I can't really see how you would use them. I wasn't sure that the tech cogs and citizens looked better than the cardboard they replaced so I whipped up some stickers for them. I'm still not sure how much money you're supposed to be counter limited to. There are 55 cardboard coins but the manual says there should be 47, and the sticker telling you the components to remove for a non-5-player game says to remove $40, but the metal coins don't add up to $40 more than the cardboard ones.
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Nov 16, 2015 05:09
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