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Really, Rimward was fraught with really uninteresting places, despite being a location sourcebook. Look, there's the Jovian Republic. They're evil hypocrites who hate fun. Look, there's the Titanian Commonwealth. They're basically perfect and basically nothing happens there. Look, there's the anarchist habitats. They're definitely perfect and nothing interesting happens there.
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Nov 9, 2015 20:24
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LatwPIAT posted:Really, Rimward was fraught with really uninteresting places, despite being a location sourcebook. Look, there's the Jovian Republic. They're evil hypocrites who hate fun. Look, there's the Titanian Commonwealth. They're basically perfect and basically nothing happens there. Look, there's the anarchist habitats. They're definitely perfect and nothing interesting happens there. Jovian Republic is actually interesting as a location, because offers a lot for the players to do there. They could organize resistance there, steal juicy secrets, try to provoke a war between Jovians and the Consortium, or try to find an exsurgent infection without getting arrested. Also, they either have to get by without most of the toys that are accessible anywhere else (advanced mods, easy resleeving, hacking pretty much everything with just mesh inserts), or go an extra mile to smuggle them there and not get caught while using them. It's the "good" locations that are the problem, because they are pretty much a large version of Tristram, where players go between adventures to replenish supplies and get more quests.
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Nov 9, 2015 21:21
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I've been slooooowly reading through Eclipse Phase and Panopticon for about 3 weeks. Really like the setting, of course, but I think it needs to probably be converted over to GUMSHOE and something else for combat/athletics because it's so focused on investigation and then quick action scenes (as it should be). Quick question though: why haven't they uplifted elephants? That really stood out to me as a prime missing species, since they are smart, have funeral rituals, are social, etc. etc. etc. Is there no reason given for this or did I just miss it?
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Nov 16, 2015 16:58
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I've been slooooowly reading through Eclipse Phase and Panopticon for about 3 weeks. Really like the setting, of course, but I think it needs to probably be converted over to GUMSHOE and something else for combat/athletics because it's so focused on investigation and then quick action scenes (as it should be). I think the best answer is the devs didn't think of it. Just like one could ask why haven't they uplifted Dolphins. The in-universe answer could be something related to them being extinct in the modern day. Elephants, I mean. They are endangered now so that could be an out. Then again, neatherthals are a possible up-lift in Transhuman. But, I'm sure you could probably come up with an Elephant uplift stat block and add it into the setting without any issue.
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Nov 16, 2015 17:09
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Axelgear posted:That sort of tech already exists in the setting in the form of nanobandages and nanovats, both of which are technologies that the Jovian Republic could not look more askew at; they're second only to AGIs for the risk potential they represent. Reversible death is definitely possible, but it's really not easy, and the tools you'd need to get better at it are precisely the ones that are going to be the most likely to get banned or restricted. I figure that while nanobandages and nanovats are one way to accomplish it, they're not the only one; plasticizing agents, organ replacements grown in vats, the retroviral technologies that make Splicers capable of faster healing and organ regrowth, etc.
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Nov 16, 2015 17:10
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Covok posted:I think the best answer is the devs didn't think of it. Just like one could ask why haven't they uplifted Dolphins. I'm pretty sure an uplifted dolphin narrates the Uplift chapter in Panopticon so they're covered. As for elephants, I think it might be that they're low-visibility due to Neo-Elephant morphs being impractical in habitats, or just that none of them made it through the filter of the Fall. That or they just never got round to it, and some Cognite facility is hard at work making Neo-Babar.
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Nov 16, 2015 17:14
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Flavivirus posted:I'm pretty sure an uplifted dolphin narrates the Uplift chapter in Panopticon so they're covered. As for elephants, I think it might be that they're low-visibility due to Neo-Elephant morphs being impractical in habitats, or just that none of them made it through the filter of the Fall. That or they just never got round to it, and some Cognite facility is hard at work making Neo-Babar. Canonically, all uplifted elephants died in the Fall.
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Nov 16, 2015 18:43
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To be perfectly honest, the bioengineering challenge of adapting an elephant to thrive in microgravity would probably give people fits. I mean they don't even use negative pressure to breathe!
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Nov 16, 2015 21:23
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You wouldn't adapt an elephant to thrive in microgravity, you'd just design a basic humanoid morph with a prehensile trunk.
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Nov 16, 2015 21:39
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LatwPIAT posted:Canonically, all uplifted elephants died in the Fall. Now there's a mission idea!
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Nov 16, 2015 21:45
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Yeah they do specifically mention that Neo-Elephants did exist but all died during the Fall - which, of course, is actually a plot hook you could use as a mission idea or a character concept, given how much of The Fall is shrouded in mystery and misinformation.
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Nov 16, 2015 22:32
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At the very least, it's a go-to 911 joke. But then, who wouldn't want to go out in search of the neo-elephant's graveyard, or whatever else has a use for brains that size...
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Nov 16, 2015 22:48
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BTW if you can't imagine Immortan Joe's Warboys in the Eclipse Phase Universe you've blown it. Spraying themselves down with nanites and fuckin' going for a resleeve the hard way. (maybe somebody already mentioned this. There's a lot to take in with this game and I've probably missed it) I'm presently kinda working on getting the skill list transferred over to GUMSHOE, it actually would be a pretty easy drop-and-replace that wouldn't really touch the rest of the system.
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Nov 16, 2015 23:16
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If you have not yet read Altered Carbon, i'd recommend it. Its a pivotal reference for a lot of technologies and themes in EP, and its certainly given me fresh insights into how psychosurgery, stacks, resleeving, prison time in cold storage, criminal rental bodies, backups, and immortality blues work. And new ideas for campaigns.
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Nov 16, 2015 23:58
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The one thing I'm surprised EP didn't lift from Altered Carbon along with everything else is the Tebbit knife. Maybe it shows up in a supplement I don't own or something.
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Nov 17, 2015 00:49
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A haemoglobin activated cyanide secreting knife, sounds like a modified wasp knife.
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Nov 17, 2015 01:03
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A wasp knife is just a compressed air injector though, it's not as stylish as a blade with special etchings that react to the chemical makeup of hemoglobin to instantly form cyanide compounds in the victim's bloodstream. Like c'mon, what are we, savages with flint spears or something?
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Nov 17, 2015 01:11
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:BTW if you can't imagine Immortan Joe's Warboys in the Eclipse Phase Universe you've blown it. Spraying themselves down with nanites and fuckin' going for a resleeve the hard way. Suicide resleeving also sounds like something like the Death Jockeys from "The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect". But, yeah, I can totally see it. I'm pretty sure that's the whole point of some professions in EP, like gatecrashers. Kai Tave posted:The one thing I'm surprised EP didn't lift from Altered Carbon along with everything else is the Tebbit knife. Maybe it shows up in a supplement I don't own or something. There's no analog to the Cookie-Cutters, the Seven-Minute Special from "The Diamond Age" either.
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Nov 17, 2015 05:46
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:BTW if you can't imagine Immortan Joe's Warboys in the Eclipse Phase Universe you've blown it. Spraying themselves down with nanites and fuckin' going for a resleeve the hard way. I'm interested in your progress on this as I really like both games. Are you using Ashen Stars as a base?
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Nov 17, 2015 19:14
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Sionak posted:I'm interested in your progress on this as I really like both games. Are you using Ashen Stars as a base? Yes, pretty much although obviously as just a seed and not much more (For example, right now Exsurgent Infection Vectors is a skill in my list) I am having a bit of trouble because, while it's really easy to sketch up the broadly applicable skill list I need it to mesh with the rest of the system and be usable in old adventures.
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Nov 17, 2015 19:34
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Ok, I'm gonna ask you guys a question. Based on your experiences how often/quickly do players get freaked out about exsurgent infections? Because I'm skimming the pre-made adventures and goddamn is it easy to infect yourself with an exsurgent virus in most of these. Scan the wrong thing and you're boned. I'm extrapolating here, but if I was a player I would be piss-scared to interact with anything or resigned to exsurgent infection/suicide/backup and that's boring (in the same way that Cthulu games lose their punch when everyone expects to go crazy and die) However it's completely possible that I'm overestimating the problem.
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Nov 18, 2015 00:50
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I have not had to face exsurgent infection and only used a YGBM attack against a player once. I've found ASIs to be a more recurring theme.
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Nov 18, 2015 02:30
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Exsurgent infection has all the worst flaws of save or die mechanics.
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Nov 18, 2015 04:19
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I think that save-or-die mechanics are appropriate for some games/genres. Horror is one that generally allows the fear of sudden and total death to be a mechanical feature of the game.
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Nov 18, 2015 07:22
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ProfessorCirno posted:Exsurgent infection has all the worst flaws of save or die mechanics. It's generall okay for EP since your backup is assumed to be recent, and the only thing you do is comically lose the memories of how you die when you resleeve. The problem is, of course, the EP morph rules. 
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Nov 18, 2015 10:33
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Also, exsurgent infection happens over a longer period of time on average, so that PCs get to still help and interact with the group for at least a while as they go slowly insane.
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Nov 18, 2015 15:17
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Mighty Dicktron posted:Also, exsurgent infection happens over a longer period of time on average, so that PCs get to still help and interact with the group for at least a while as they go slowly insane. Yeah but I would imagine this leads to the player psychologically disengaging from their character and saying "ok let's get as much done as I can before I croak". The problem that I'm seeing is that the exsurgent infection rules and scenarios basically turn the game into this weird Cowardly Dungeon Crawl/Suicide hybrid. The first half is: don't touch that terminal, don't access that mesh device, don't go in that room, etc. etc. etc. And then once you're infected it's like, ok, I've got the whammie, now let's touch EVERYTHING and I can start actually making progress on this adventure and trying to get myself killed creatively. gently caress it. I really like the horror aspect of the game but setting up the scenarios so that the characters are railroaded into creatively blowing themselves and the problem to pieces and letting their clones deal with the fallout isn't a game of transhuman conspiracy and horror. It's Paranoia. Edit: Also I seriously underestimated how tough it was going to be to make GUMSHOE mechanics mesh with this game, but I'm getting there. I am thinking about adding about 5 new skills and making every GUMSHOE point worth 20 points in the skill if used outside of an investigative circumstance. That should crack it. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Nov 18, 2015 |
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Nov 18, 2015 17:05
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Yeah but I would imagine this leads to the player psychologically disengaging from their character and saying "ok let's get as much done as I can before I croak". Pretty much. Though exsurgents aren't always necessarily ultimate evil, though - they can also be ultimate weird and you can play with that to make it more interesting. But gently caress the goon consensus, my players getting nuked by their own bosses in the starter scenario was hilarious. Sometimes a little Paranoia is kind of fun.
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Nov 18, 2015 23:38
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sebmojo posted:Pretty much. Though exsurgents aren't always necessarily ultimate evil, though - they can also be ultimate weird and you can play with that to make it more interesting. My very first mission for Firewall had us trying to figure out what the hell TITAN materials did. Then we realize they hosed your brain and there was a moment where we had to prove to them that we couldn't possibly be infected before they nuked the plateau we were on. TITANs are mean. 
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Nov 18, 2015 23:51
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when death becomes curable, suicide becomes a tool. but this consciousness doesn't keep going. someone else with your morals and drive does. this line ends. that's horror.
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Nov 18, 2015 23:52
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Kommando posted:when death becomes curable, suicide becomes a tool. Yeah, but it's horror that a generation familiar with video-game saves can become inured to. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Nov 19, 2015 |
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Nov 19, 2015 00:20
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Yeah, but it's horror that a generation familiar with video-game saves can become inured to. ...the horror of redoing your character with a new morph and adding up all the little numbers... e: it sounds like you're saying it might hypothetically not be very scary when it's supposed to, but actually having a horrific invasive force that can take you over from the inside seems hypothetically scary as well as actually scary. and if players are LOL SEND IN THE CLONES in response, then I guess that's the game you're running now. But a competent gm should be able to square that circle no probs, you can have both moods in a session let alone a campaign sebmojo fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Nov 19, 2015 |
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Nov 19, 2015 01:51
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Yeah, but it's horror that a generation familiar with video-game saves can become inured to. It's also horror that isn't scary to the PCs, who live in a world where cortical stacks and ego backups, infomorphs and resleeving exist. Your body dying isn't scary to most EP characters except in the way that dropping your iPhone is scary: it's a lot of money/rep you just wasted.
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Nov 19, 2015 09:55
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It's kind of weird to me that "continuity of consciousness" is supposed to be a big horror bugaboo in Eclipse Phase when people have been debating whether the "you" that you are right now is still the same "you" that you are after you go to sleep and wake up for who knows how long. EP doesn't do a whole lot to sell me on the idea that effective immortality is actually supposed to be this big moment of dawning existential horror.
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Nov 19, 2015 10:11
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Kai Tave posted:It's kind of weird to me that "continuity of consciousness" is supposed to be a big horror bugaboo in Eclipse Phase when people have been debating whether the "you" that you are right now is still the same "you" that you are after you go to sleep and wake up for who knows how long. EP doesn't do a whole lot to sell me on the idea that effective immortality is actually supposed to be this big moment of dawning existential horror. Pretty sure it's the Lack that's meant to be disquieting - the idea that you have done things and experienced things that you have no memory of. It's bad enough if you went crazy and butchered the rest of the team, but you've lost everything since the last backup - that could include social events, important conversations with loved ones, etc.
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Nov 19, 2015 11:50
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Yeah, the fear isn't "death is basically just falling asleep now," it's "the last memory I have happened four years ago, and now I'm a wanted terrorist and I killed my family."
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Nov 19, 2015 13:06
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ProfessorCirno posted:Yeah, the fear isn't "death is basically just falling asleep now," it's "the last memory I have happened four years ago, and now I'm a wanted terrorist and I killed my family." The Hangover Part X.
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Nov 19, 2015 14:05
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Ettin posted:The Hangover Part X. "Dude, where's my morph?"
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Nov 19, 2015 15:30
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Dareon posted:The Jovians, I think, are cartoonish on the face of it because some parties need an obvious threat to punch. Which is fine. Rimward expands on them very nicely, giving them nuance and going a long way towards at least explaining the cartoonishness. And also includes the Space Pope. This makes sense. It reminds me of the original Mage game in White Wolf. Initially the Mage core book was published and the Technocrats were introduced as villains. A little later the Technocrat factions each got their own book that expanded on how Technocrats were villains but there were complexities to them. A bit later you got the Player's Guide to the Technocracy which was written from the perspective of Technocrats being heroes railing against the horrors of the night and the cracks in their own flawed organization. A great deal more nuance was added. I think its a general "good bad guys" phenomena. The man in the black hat is evil but cool. Darth Vader is cool. Hellknights are cool. Also a publisher wants to sell more books so why not expand on what has captured the audience's imagination? Space Pope is dumb.
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Nov 19, 2015 20:50
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I still find them pretty abhorrent, but their ideology is internally consistent (Hypocrisy within it is, cynically, expected of politicians), and I wouldn't be at all surprised if some players are willing to accept them straight up and fail to see them as villains.
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EP Fate is now on its third and apparently final round of playtest: http://eclipsephase.com/fate-conversion-guide-final-playtest-0
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Nov 22, 2015 23:50
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