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The Ferret King
Nov 23, 2003

cluck cluck

Cocoa Crispies posted:

How does this even work, a bunch of leased lines running from Doral up to Broweird?

VOIP.

Houston Center can't listen to guard at the position. It just varies.

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bloops
Dec 31, 2010

Thanks Ape Pussy!

evil_bunnY posted:

It was a test flight tho.

Test flights shouldn't be busting hard limits of the aircraft.

Fender Anarchist
May 20, 2009

Fender Anarchist

holocaust bloopers posted:

Test flights shouldn't be busting hard limits of the aircraft.

Especially a new variant of a proven airframe whose flight characteristics are well established.

Mortabis
Jul 8, 2010

I am stupid
From the Wall Street Journal, a picture released by ISIS supposedly of the bomb used to destroy that Russian A321:



The object in the middle is presumably a blasting cap so I think this might be the real thing. Anyone know what the putty on the bottom of the can might be? I think it's where they cut the can open to put in the explosive, and the putty's holding it together.

e: at any rate, at least now we know the official ginger ale of the Islamic State.

Mortabis fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Nov 18, 2015

EightBit
Jan 7, 2006
I spent money on this line of text just to make the "Stupid Newbie" go away.
Looks like they glued the can back together with epoxy?

bloops
Dec 31, 2010

Thanks Ape Pussy!
I don't trust ISIS on being honest.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

Seems like you'd need a much larger explosive?

spookykid
Apr 28, 2006

I am an awkward fellow
after all

hobbesmaster posted:

Seems like you'd need a much larger explosive?

That's about the same volume of explosive that brought down PanAm 103 over Lockerbie. Semtex E: PETN is nasty stuff.

spookykid fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Nov 18, 2015

I would blow Dane Cook
Dec 26, 2008
Why pineapple though?

chitoryu12
Apr 24, 2014

Jumpingmanjim posted:

Why pineapple though?

I want to imagine that the bomb was produced on the spot and he just used whatever he last had for lunch to make it.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

Dannywilson posted:

That's about the same volume of explosive that brought down PanAm 103 over Lockerbie. Semtex E: PETN is nasty stuff.



Maybe a perspective thing but that Lockerbie bomb seems to be much larger.

Mortabis
Jul 8, 2010

I am stupid

chitoryu12 posted:

I want to imagine that the bomb was produced on the spot and he just used whatever he last had for lunch to make it.

The detonator was a prize on his lunchables box

Dr. Despair
Nov 4, 2009


39 perfect posts with each roll.

hobbesmaster posted:

Maybe a perspective thing but that Lockerbie bomb seems to be much larger.

That bit sitting above the body of the radio? That's the thing that holds a cassettes tape. It's actually just a relatively small boombox.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

hobbesmaster posted:

Seems like you'd need a much larger explosive?

PETN is incredibly powerful explosive.

david_a
Apr 24, 2010




Megamarm
I was wondering if they intentionally showed off a fake that's smaller than the real thing to cause more fear, but maybe not.

Wingnut Ninja
Jan 11, 2003

Mostly Harmless

Captain Apollo posted:

Com1 : ATC
Com2: CTAF

How many radios do ya'll have?

Ten, plus a dedicated UHF guard receiver. Don't most radios have a guard monitor function? Our VHF radios all do, and I thought I remembered the Cessna I flew in training having a similar feature. Unless that was just the second radio, it was a while ago and in retrospect I didn't really know what the gently caress I was doing.


Show-off :v:

CovfefeCatCafe
Apr 11, 2006

A fresh attitude
brewed daily!

Mortabis posted:

e: at any rate, at least now we know the official ginger ale of the Islamic State.

Mother loving Schweppes? I say we turn them into glass. Anyone who drinks that dog piss instead of the smooth, rich flavor of Canada Dry doesn't deserve to exist.

If you drink Schweppes, you're drinking terrorism.

The Ferret King
Nov 23, 2003

cluck cluck

Wingnut Ninja posted:

Don't most radios have a guard monitor function?

Not really, no.

But many (most) GA planes have 2 COM radios. So you'd use the 2nd to monitor guard when not using it for something else. The most common types of GA intercoms allow receiving on the 2nd radio while both transmitting AND receiving on the primary, or vice versa.

bloops
Dec 31, 2010

Thanks Ape Pussy!

YF19pilot posted:

Mother loving Schweppes? I say we turn them into glass. Anyone who drinks that dog piss instead of the smooth, rich flavor of Canada Dry doesn't deserve to exist.

If you drink Schweppes, you're drinking terrorism.

Canada Dry crew :respek:

rscott
Dec 10, 2009
If you don't drink Vernor's you are un American and hate freedom

Kilonum
Sep 30, 2002

You know where you are? You're in the suburbs, baby. You're gonna drive.

I'm a Masshole so I drink Polar

in unrelated news, I sometimes get woken up by a Cathay Pacific 777-300ER doing a max performance takeoff at ~1:45am local time

Sagebrush
Feb 26, 2012

When they say they "scrapped" the Ghostrider, that can't possibly mean they actually shredded and recycled the whole plane, right? Okay, so the plane exceeded its g-limit. That means the structure is stressed and can't be flown. But surely the engines, avionics, weaponry, maybe even the hydraulics and such could all be reused?

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

Sagebrush posted:

But surely the engines, avionics, weaponry, maybe even the hydraulics and such could all be reused?

Thats usually what "scrapped" means when it comes to aircraft.

ThisIsJohnWayne
Feb 23, 2007
Ooo! Look at me! NO DON'T LOOK AT ME!



Sacré Bleü! The only ones who doesn't drink refreshing Schsczweppes are from the colonies. We are not colonials in civilized society, what what!

ThisIsJohnWayne fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Nov 19, 2015

MrChips
Jun 10, 2005

FLIGHT SAFETY TIP: Fatties out first

hobbesmaster posted:

Thats usually what "scrapped" means when it comes to aircraft.

Generally this. Any life-limited components that weren't damaged in the incident will be removed and stored for later use. Everything else is pop cans.

bloops
Dec 31, 2010

Thanks Ape Pussy!

Sagebrush posted:

When they say they "scrapped" the Ghostrider, that can't possibly mean they actually shredded and recycled the whole plane, right? Okay, so the plane exceeded its g-limit. That means the structure is stressed and can't be flown. But surely the engines, avionics, weaponry, maybe even the hydraulics and such could all be reused?

Yea. What's still good is parted out amongst the fleet. Everything else is sent to be recycled or whatever. I would imagine that a lot of the airframe is still good. The wing box and other key structural components are shot, though.

~Coxy
Dec 9, 2003

R.I.P. Inter-OS Sass - b.2000AD d.2003AD

YF19pilot posted:

Mother loving Schweppes? I say we turn them into glass. Anyone who drinks that dog piss instead of the smooth, rich flavor of Canada Dry doesn't deserve to exist.

If you drink Schweppes, you're drinking terrorism.

ThisIsJohnWayne posted:

Sacré Bleü! The only ones who doesn't drink refreshing Schsczweppes are from the colonies.

Last time I was on Emirates I think, I notice that the Schweppes tonic water doesn't even contain quinine. Heathens.

ThisIsJohnWayne
Feb 23, 2007
Ooo! Look at me! NO DON'T LOOK AT ME!



~Coxy posted:

Last time I was on Emirates I think, I notice that the Schweppes tonic water doesn't even contain quinine. Heathens.

The devil you say?

david_a
Apr 24, 2010




Megamarm

~Coxy posted:

Last time I was on Emirates I think, I notice that the Schweppes tonic water doesn't even contain quinine. Heathens.
That might have been an airline special or something: http://www.schweppesus.com/products/schweppes-tonic-water

StandardVC10
Feb 6, 2007

This avatar now 50% more dark mode compliant

Kilonum posted:

I'm a Masshole so I drink Polar

in unrelated news, I sometimes get woken up by a Cathay Pacific 777-300ER doing a max performance takeoff at ~1:45am local time

Man I totally forgot Cathay Pacific flew to Boston.

spookykid
Apr 28, 2006

I am an awkward fellow
after all

CommieGIR posted:

PETN is incredibly powerful explosive.

And structurally, modern aircraft are eggs: super structurally strong until a tiny but critical part is compromised, then the whole thing collapses with extreme prejudice.

The hole in pan-am 103 was 20 loving inches initially.

Platystemon
Feb 13, 2012

BREADS

Dannywilson posted:

And structurally, modern aircraft are eggs: super structurally strong until a tiny but critical part is compromised, then the whole thing collapses with extreme prejudice.

Clearly what we need is a return to the B‐17 school of engineering.

D C
Jun 20, 2004

1-800-HOTLINEBLING
1-800-HOTLINEBLING
1-800-HOTLINEBLING
Not to distract from the bomb chat but I filmed a quick little thing I thought was cool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5a5TSb__rn4

Cat Mattress
Jul 14, 2012

by Cyrano4747

Don't try writing in French.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

Got my 12 beat

I would blow Dane Cook
Dec 26, 2008

StandardVC10 posted:

Man I totally forgot Cathay Pacific flew to Boston.

Singapore Airlines used to do Singapore-Newark.

I would blow Dane Cook
Dec 26, 2008

quote:


DGCA report finds Air India operated 787 with only 4 of 47 screws installed

On October 12, 2013, a little over two years ago, an Air India Boeing 787-8 Dreamliner registration VT-ANK performing flight AI803 from New Delhi to Bangalore with 147 passengers and seven crew, had its right hand side (RHS) heat exchanger access panel 196KR detach from the aircraft as it was landing at Kempegowda International Airport, Bengaluru around 09:40 (0410Z) 04:10 UTC.

An investigative report into the incident, by India’s aviation regulator the Directorate General of Civil Aviation states “the cause of the incident was due to human error and not adopting Standard Operating Procedures (SOP),”

The national carrier is also cited for operating the aircraft under MEL conditions (minimum equipment list) beyond the allowed 10 days without taking approval from the DGCA as required.
Dangerous gaps in communication

Without sounding alarmist, a close reading of the report exposes the shoddy functioning of Air India’s much vaunted engineering department, and how close to a potential tragedy this incident really was.

To briefly recap what happened. The aircraft was already operating under MEL (minimum equipment list) when it arrived from Frankfurt in to New Delhi on October 9. Due to additional sub-systems malfunction, the aircraft was declared AOG (aircraft on ground) and sent for repairs.

Accidents and incidents are always a result of cascading events. This incident was a case of communication lapses through the many layers of bureaucracy that plagues Air India which eventually resulted in only four of the 47 screws required secure the 196KR panel, being fitted, and even these four screws not tightened fully.

As per the report, the first shift engineering team removed all but four screws of the panel, but not the panel itself. The second shift engineers claim the first shift did not hand over the screws to them, nor did they make any notes in the records. The first shift denies this of-course. If the second shift engineers were unaware of developments in the first shift, they have obviously not done anything about the 196KR panel. The aircraft was released to service on October 10, 2013 with only four of the 47 screws fitted. On subsequent flights the panel fluttered in the high winds as the jet travelled at speed. Cracks developed near the screw holes in the panel, and finally, as the aircraft was landing at Bangalore, two days later, the panel detached from the aircraft.


Similar gaps in communication and improper hand-over between shifts have resulted in fatal crashes, like Continental Express Flight 2574 in 1991, and I shudder to think of the consequences has this panel detached mid-flight over the ocean.

Post the “repairs”, Air India operated VT-ANK on six flights with only the four of 47 screws fitted. Two of these flights included the longest non-stop Dreamliner flights Air India operates, New Delhi to Sydney and from Melbourne to New Delhi.

Quoting the report “The Panel 196KR was only on four screws instead of 47 screws thereby the entire load was being taken by these four screws. As these four screws were not fully tightened, the air load caused fluttering of the panel further leading to fatigue crack around the four screw holes. Finally at touchdown in Bangalore the panel liberated from the aircraft, with three screws remaining on the aircraft”

Three screws remaining fixed to the aircraft fuselage highlights the progression of the cracks in the panel around the screw holes, and how close to a potential inflight panel detachment the aircraft came.

You might ask, why did the pilot and engineers not notice the lack of screws of the 196KR panel during their inspection performed before each of the flights? The General Visual inspection (GVI) that is performed during the “walk around” looks for obvious damage, obstructions, missing parts etc. on the visible exterior areas of an airplane. The 196KR panel is on the underside of the mid belly. To inspect it one must bend down, and there was no obvious indication that anyone would feel the need to do that.
Conflicting claims. Manipulation of records?

In a classic case of ‘he said, not said,” the report is filled by claims and counter claims by the various Air India engineers involved. It is distressing to see that the investigation does precious little to resolve these claims and counter-claims. Industry insiders say this bureaucratic, “protect my turf” method of functioning has become a regular feature in the engineering department at the airline.

The DGCA report is riddled with conflicting claims of the various engineers. The report also seems to suggest manipulation of records. Each of the engineers are making claims to protect themselves. The key point is the handover between the shifts. Quoting from the report “Manager Service Engineer (3) was interrogated twice; initially he denied neither having received any screws physically nor any handover verbally from Manager Service Engineer (1) During second time he stands by his earlier statement and also stated that the ’note” entry in the work allocation sheet was not there when he took over,

As the veracity of Manager Service Engineer (1)’s statement and also whether the ‘note” entry was made on 09.10.2013 [October 09, 2013] or later cannot be established. It is unable to establish beyond reasonable doubt that Manager Service engineer (3) received the handover regarding the panel screws properly”

I am not sure about India, but in the United States and most of Western Europe, manipulation of aircraft maintenance logs and records are considered criminal acts and dealt with most severely. How is the DGCA remaining silent on this possible records manipulation is baffling? It may sound harsh, but if the DGCA cannot get the truth, should it not call in the Central Bureau of Investigations to conduct criminal and forensic investigations to determine the truth and fix the blame?

One of the goals of any air incident/accident investigation is to prevent recurrence in the future. The nine page report does not make any significant recommendations towards that ultimate goal, leaving any actions on the head-quarters. Will this result in “business as usual” (BAU) at the airline? What will it take for true change to be initiated at the airline?


http://www.bangaloreaviation.com/2015/11/dgca-report-finds-air-india-operated-787-with-only-4-of-47-screws-installed.html

Fender Anarchist
May 20, 2009

Fender Anarchist

Platystemon posted:

Clearly what we need is a return to the B‐17 school of engineering.

So reinforce the parts that aren't broken on safely returned aircraft?

Kafouille
Nov 5, 2004

Think Fast !

Enourmo posted:

So reinforce the parts that aren't broken on safely returned aircraft?

You may have to start emplacing flak on final approach for that to show appreciable results.

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LUBE UP YOUR BUTT
Jun 30, 2008

Enourmo posted:

So reinforce the parts that aren't broken on safely returned aircraft?

People often distill the solution down to that but it was actually a pretty creative and rigorous application of statistics, and of course for statistical validity you need a lot of samples, which works when you're sending hundreds of bombers out on missions which get hit in numerous places by thousands of enemy bullets and shells.

Of course real world analysis isn't even needed in modern commercial aviation to apply that design principle, we can conduct computerized stress simulation and testing now, plus super strict testing of every single structural component before the plane even flies for the first time. The failure points of commercial jets are well known, it's just that reinforcing them the same way as b-17s would raise fuel costs, unacceptable given the purpose of said jets are to make money and not help get a bomb load to the target and the crew back through AA and enemy fighters

It's a lot easier to prevent maintenance lapses than to convince the enemy not to shoot at you

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