terrible programmers: my god, it's full of chars

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > terrible programmers: my god, it's full of chars

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DONT THREAD ON ME: Oct 1, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo; Floss Finder

LeftistMuslimObama posted:

Vim is godawful. I used it for my entire OS course, which involved implementing basically every part of a kernel, and a bunch of userspace applications. It sucked just as bad at the end as the beginning. The moment your project is more than one file it's an even bigger pain. Even dealing with vb6 is significantly less painful, just by virtue of having an ide debugger and a tree view of the files in the project. Vague intellisense and go to Def is nice too. I could never get that working in vim because the plug in for it for C requires clang and that wasn't available on the school's Linux machines.

Yeah you're supposed to be using plug-ins

# ? Nov 19, 2015 03:10

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# ? May 24, 2024 10:07

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

it probably made sense in the 1970s when the 8086 isa was defined

nothing in x86 ever seems to get removed, just more added

the newest CPU design I've seen with BCD instructions is the Motorola 68000, which is also from the 1970s

it wouldn't surprise me if POWER has BCD support too though IBM was all about the stuff, I only ever touched PowerPC

# ? Nov 19, 2015 03:15

Jeffrey of YOSPOS: Dec 22, 2005; GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS

Was your kernel preemptible? Support SMP configurations? Only then you can you complain about vim.

# ? Nov 19, 2015 03:15

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Barnyard Protein posted:

is there a C source code style guide for accessibility?

i remember reading somewhere a while back that screen readers could handle some syntax better than others. like, putting a space between 'if' and '(', so if (, not if(

you should write your C with a space between the if and its predicate regardless since if isn't a goddamn function

what are you, an animal?

# ? Nov 19, 2015 03:19

JawnV6: Jul 4, 2004; So hot ...

eschaton posted:

the newest CPU design I've seen with BCD instructions is the Motorola 68000, which is also from the 1970s

msp430

# ? Nov 19, 2015 03:20

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

LeftistMuslimObama posted:

all of our managers are programmers, all the way to the top. even the ceo and pres were programmers before they became money golems. there is no fooling anybody about your coding skills around here.

and yet:

MUMPS

# ? Nov 19, 2015 03:20

MeruFM: Jul 27, 2010

VikingofRock posted:

Vim is pretty cool + good for a lot of languages / scenarios, but if I was writing Java or C# or something I'd probably just use an IDE.

i'd use it for those langauges because their paradigm encourage crazy folder nesting

and gui breakpoints

# ? Nov 19, 2015 03:22

JawnV6: Jul 4, 2004; So hot ...

wow, you think go is trying the same thing? can't write anything so complex a VP couldn't spot check it over your shoulder

# ? Nov 19, 2015 03:22

MeruFM: Jul 27, 2010

go is for when you think you're writing on the metal because ampersands but actually you're eating poo poo

# ? Nov 19, 2015 03:25

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

MALE SHOEGAZE posted:

If someone made an IDE with a good user interface, it would be much better than vim.

Xcode is much better than vim

I may be biased

# ? Nov 19, 2015 03:25

MeruFM: Jul 27, 2010

eschaton posted:

Xcode is much better than vim

I may be biased

has it stopped crashing when trying to highlight errors in swift yet

# ? Nov 19, 2015 03:28

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

MeruFM posted:

has it stopped crashing when trying to highlight errors in swift yet

hasn't done that to me in a long time at least

I don't even have to change my syntax coloring prefs to be comfortable with a clean install :smug:

# ? Nov 19, 2015 03:32

jony neuemonic: Nov 13, 2009

MALE SHOEGAZE posted:

IDE's aren't fundamentally worse than vim they Should be much better in general. It's just that every IDE has a terrible, terrible, bloated, cramped, horrifying user interface.

If someone made an IDE with a good user interface, it would be much better than vim.

let me tell you about visual studio.

# ? Nov 19, 2015 03:34

JawnV6: Jul 4, 2004; So hot ...

eschaton posted:

Xcode is much better than vim

you know what I miss? the time before HDL's when you had a GUI to drag nets around like a caveman instead of using some unambiguous text declaration to express that same thing

# ? Nov 19, 2015 03:49

brap: Aug 23, 2004; Grimey Drawer

yeah uhh visual studio is actually quite good

# ? Nov 19, 2015 04:12

JewKiller 3000: Nov 28, 2006; by Lowtax

Oracle database is loving insane

# ? Nov 19, 2015 06:24

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

use sql server.

# ? Nov 19, 2015 06:27

VikingofRock: Aug 24, 2008

Really I just like using vim because reaching for the mouse is too much effort for my goony arms (and trackpads are clunky).

In any case I don't really see why some people get so worked up about editors. What does it matter to you what your coworker uses so long as he is writing good code?

# ? Nov 19, 2015 06:28

travelling wave: Nov 25, 2013

VikingofRock posted:

Really I just like using vim because reaching for the mouse is too much effort for my goony arms (and trackpads are clunky).

In any case I don't really see why some people get so worked up about editors. What does it matter to you what your coworker uses so long as he is writing good code?

BECAUSE THEY'RE WRONG, WRONG I TELLS YOU

# ? Nov 19, 2015 06:35

The MUMPSorceress: Jan 6, 2012; ^SHTPSTS; Gary’s Answer

eschaton posted:

and yet:

MUMPS

what do you work on? seriously. i challenge you to transition an enterprise system for an uptime-critical application with hundreds of customers to a new platform without causing any regressions, running into legal issues, or just straight up killing a patient.

every single major emr is on whatever platform they used when they got big, because once you hit that point it's just not sane or safe to switch. i'm not defending its quality as a language, but it hardly says anything about someone's programming skills if they work in it. or is every guy stuck keeping some crusty rails app a bad programmer too?

Thanks City of Glompton for the glorious sig

# ? Nov 19, 2015 06:37

The MUMPSorceress: Jan 6, 2012; ^SHTPSTS; Gary’s Answer

MALE SHOEGAZE posted:

Yeah you're supposed to be using plug-ins

imo, this is weak when poo poo like Visual Studio is just loving great out of the box nowadays. i'd only use vim if I was stuck targetting a platform visual studio didn't work with.

Thanks City of Glompton for the glorious sig

# ? Nov 19, 2015 06:38

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

vs or eclipse are all you need.

# ? Nov 19, 2015 06:39

The MUMPSorceress: Jan 6, 2012; ^SHTPSTS; Gary’s Answer

Shaggar posted:

vs or eclipse are all you need.

don't use java. on windows its worse than c# in every way and it turns out being platform independent is a total lie unless you only want to write turd console apps that cant do anything

http://java.metagno.me/

Thanks City of Glompton for the glorious sig

# ? Nov 19, 2015 06:48

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

java is ok

# ? Nov 19, 2015 06:57

Jerry Bindle: May 16, 2003

the biggest problem i have with java is people who write bad java. seems like good ide's allow people who don't know anything to get a reasonable amount done. then after two years you have a bespoke xml testing dsl written in java that only works on windows because the simps who wrote it don't know how to use the jdk filesystem api's correctly

# ? Nov 19, 2015 06:59

Luigi Thirty: Apr 30, 2006; Emergency confection port.

Java

# ? Nov 19, 2015 07:00

The MUMPSorceress: Jan 6, 2012; ^SHTPSTS; Gary’s Answer

Barnyard Protein posted:

the biggest problem i have with java is people who write bad java. seems like good ide's allow people who don't know anything to get a reasonable amount done. then after two years you have a bespoke xml testing dsl written in java that only works on windows because the simps who wrote it don't know how to use the jdk filesystem api's correctly

the design of java's libraries seems to shunt people into a route where it seems like there's an easy and standard solution to the thing you're doing, right up until there isn't, and then you gently caress the last 10% together out of all the other weird poo poo oracle leaves laying around outside the standard libraries. Java-driven design is a real phenonemon.

Thanks City of Glompton for the glorious sig

# ? Nov 19, 2015 07:10

VikingofRock: Aug 24, 2008

travelling wave posted:

BECAUSE THEY'RE WRONG, WRONG I TELLS YOU

Computer people seem to conflate "has downsides" with "is terrible". See also: the eternal language debate

# ? Nov 19, 2015 07:18

triple sulk: Sep 17, 2014

linq is rly good

# ? Nov 19, 2015 07:43

bobbilljim: May 29, 2013; this christmas feels like the very first christmas to me

LeftistMuslimObama posted:

i'm not defending its quality as a language, but it hardly says anything about someone's programming skills if they work in it. or is every guy stuck keeping some crusty rails app a bad programmer too?

hey i have a lot of respect for u as a dev but lol at saying that and then this

LeftistMuslimObama posted:

don't use java. on windows its worse than c# in every way and it turns out being platform independent is a total lie unless you only want to write turd console apps that cant do anything

java is OK

# ? Nov 19, 2015 07:45

MeruFM: Jul 27, 2010

local man contradicts his past self

time changes a man, ya know

# ? Nov 19, 2015 08:08

hackbunny: Jul 22, 2007; I haven't been on SA for years but the person who gave me my previous av as a joke felt guilty for doing so and decided to get me a non-shitty av

LeftistMuslimObama posted:

imo, this is weak when poo poo like Visual Studio is just loving great out of the box nowadays. i'd only use vim if I was stuck targetting a platform visual studio didn't work with.

seems visual studio is slowly adding support for like, all platforms. you can already use it for iphone and android development and I've read something about a gdb plugin

# ? Nov 19, 2015 10:20

jesus WEP: Oct 17, 2004

JewKiller 3000 posted:

Oracle database is loving insane

talk to me bro

# ? Nov 19, 2015 10:26

~Coxy: Dec 9, 2003; R.I.P. Inter-OS Sass - b.2000AD d.2003AD

jony neuemonic posted:

sql is a good dsl for working with data and using orms discourages you from learning and using it.

sql is un-compilable, untestable, un-debuggable, un-source-controllable, and basically untraceable*

as much logic as possible should be moved out of SQL into the application for maintainability reasons

if there is a performance reason** to hand-write a certain amount of SQL that is probably OK

---

*in that you cannot see very well the dependencies on a sproc or function or table

**your CRUD statements don't count

# ? Nov 19, 2015 10:47

~Coxy: Dec 9, 2003; R.I.P. Inter-OS Sass - b.2000AD d.2003AD

hackbunny posted:

just got into an incredibly stupid discussion on facebook (!)

guy demonstrates floating point loss of precision with excel, subtracting 0.01 a hundred times from 1, result is not exactly zero. he's all insufferable nerd like "free ice cream to the first non-computer guy who can explain why in 10 words or less ", finally "ends the contest" all disappointed with his fb friends, explaining floating point, how 1/10 can't be represented exactly in base 2, etc. and some incredible poo poo on how BCD is the only way to get an exact result. what the gently caress, right? I make an effortpost on rationals and fixed point and arbitrary precision, and he uh, just does not understand what rationals are. I mean he does in a purely theoretical way but it's clear he's never used them in software like ever. seems to confuse the textual representation of 1/3 (literally infinite) with the in-memory representation (literally a 1 followed by a 3 for a total of 3 bits before rounding/overhead). he immediately moves the goalposts to a matter of orders of magnitude, who the gently caress cares though? you want approximate results but more precision than a 64 bit IEEE float, you use arbitrary precision floating point, there are plenty of libraries, nobody forces you to use the hardware-provided floats. I specifically included arbitrary precision floating point and a disclaimer about space/time complexity because you're dealing with nerds, you rules-lawyer up. also did you know that to do exact calculations with numbers like 0.1 you need a symbolic mathematics engine??? literal argument made by him, the solution to the rounding issue besides BCD (!!!)

also smug about not using windows when I told him that the windows calculator can add and subtract 0.1, 0.01, etc. just fine (of loving course it uses rationals internally, except for irrationals which are stored as decimal fixed point with IIRC 64 decimal places), so I told him, try it with bc, in fact script it with bc and see if the result isn't 100% exact every single time, must be magic or some sci-fi-level symbolic calculator poo poo and not basically 9th grade arithmetic. but no it doesn't scale and can't calculate the fisher test for a large population in useful time so it must be some toy that's never used anywhere by anyone and not say a hugely popular software package old enough to drive, vote and drink

BCD, loving seriously? he's an old so it's somewhat excusable but does he really think the world never moved on from there?

he probably learnt BCD in university computer science 100-level courses and feels smart about it

# ? Nov 19, 2015 10:48

~Coxy: Dec 9, 2003; R.I.P. Inter-OS Sass - b.2000AD d.2003AD

St Evan Echoes posted:

being able to whizz around an ide is almost guaranteed to impress your manager more than being able to write good code

they aren't listening to a god damned word you say anyway

it drives me nuts that nobody seems to use key commands in devenv except F5

# ? Nov 19, 2015 10:55

jesus WEP: Oct 17, 2004

~Coxy posted:

it drives me nuts that nobody seems to use key commands in devenv except F5

guy who started here told me noone knew how to debug at his oldjob

oh they didn't know how to step over, step into, w/e? that's lame

no they literally didn't know how to set a breakpoint and used alert boxes for everything

# ? Nov 19, 2015 11:02

Valeyard: Mar 30, 2012; Grimey Drawer

St Evan Echoes posted:

guy who started here told me noone knew how to debug at his oldjob

oh they didn't know how to step over, step into, w/e? that's lame

no they literally didn't know how to set a breakpoint and used alert boxes for everything

Typical JavaScript developers

# ? Nov 19, 2015 11:20

jesus WEP: Oct 17, 2004

it was java or oracle forms or smth

# ? Nov 19, 2015 12:02

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# ? May 24, 2024 10:07

Symbolic Butt: Mar 22, 2009; (_!_); Buglord

MALE SHOEGAZE posted:

IDE's aren't fundamentally worse than vim they Should be much better in general. It's just that every IDE has a terrible, terrible, bloated, cramped, horrifying user interface.

If someone made an IDE with a good user interface, it would be much better than vim.

IDEs are great debuggers

but I feel like they're overkill for just like, you know, typing code

# ? Nov 19, 2015 12:58

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > terrible programmers: my god, it's full of chars

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