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What I mean is that Ashildr bears the murder tattoo, not that she removes it.
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Nov 22, 2015 10:49
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That's just it, it's implied that it's only removable when she issues it, because of the deal she struck with the Quantum Shade. Clara didn't strike that same deal, so she doesn't get the option to pass it.
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Nov 22, 2015 10:59
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Well that was definitely the best episode of the season so far, possibly the best of Capaldi's tenure. I saw real flashes of what I want from Capaldi as the Doctor - anger, cynicism, sinisterness, terror, emotion. He has the potential to play a really interesting, really dark, really bleak terror of a Doctor, and they've to date rather wasted himon zany storylines, stupid plots, or both. This had flashes of stupid plot, but it turned out to be a lot less 'Diagon Alley' than the trailers made me think, and I love the idea of a refugee camp in a trap street in London. The downers of the episode for me were twofold: one was Maisie Williams' character, who for a 'genuinely doing my best to help' type was really not doing her apparent best to help here; there were any number of times she could have pulled them aside and explained what was going on etc without worrying about it and b: the Doctor yet again sticking his hand into what he well knows is a trap without thinking about it or using any of his special technical knowhow. I really hope they have some long game going with this, because that's twice this season already he's ignored possible solutions that don't involve sticking his hand into an obvious trap. If they retcon Clara's death I'll be pretty pissed. It wasn't the best way it could have gone, but it worked. (Also, loving the reference to retcon from Torchwood) Finally... the graffiti TARDIS was nice, but when did Who start having stingers? I've been switching it off once the credits start, how many have I missed? TinTower posted:Why didn't Ashildr actually offer to take the chronolock off Clara? It was very clear that she was getting weary of life before the events of "The Woman Who Lived", let alone "Face the Raven".
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Nov 22, 2015 10:59
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With two episodes remaining, and no less than three deus ex machina options that could be involved in saving Clara (stasis chamber, memory-wiping drugs, perception-altering streetlamps), I am VERY confident that Clara isn't actually dead, but this event is going to be the major factor in ending her tenure as a companion. Ultimately, I think the Doctor pulls a combination of those deus ex options and time traveling back to the street to put Clara into stasis or otherwise save her immediately. Tell me it isn't a total Doctor Who thing to see the Doctor teleport out, followed by the Doctor dragging Clara into the room and saying "Don't worry, I can fix this." I see it as very plausible for the Doctor to secretly manage to swap her into that stasis chamber or save her in front of people and make them forget it, maybe after going off on other adventures happen earlier in her timestream, and ultimately figure out a way to save her. After she's saved he refuses to bring her along anymore because of how she's been behaving. If the hybrid stuff is actually building to something, maybe he puts just enough Time-Lord mojo into her to allow one regeneration. I'd still prefer it if she's kicked out of the Tardis even in that scenario though, it's been too long since the Doctor just ditched a companion instead of losing them to ~tragic circumstance~. In a perfect world, the next episode is the Doctor abducted by Missy and doing crazy things that almost lead to Gallifrey, and the finale is him deciding to give time the finger and explicitly showing that most of the season he's been traveling with Clara after he's seen her die, maybe with a quick montage, and then we get to the latest one from the Doctor's POV where he figures out how to save her during the adventure, pops back to the timeframe of "Face the Raven," and then the days of Clara and the Doctor properly end after that. Pastamania posted:Loved this episode. It's about time after a run of turds we've sat through recently, Yeah, the costuming and the dial being handed off are solid indicators that we're dealing with different timelines. It's something that's been theorized pretty much all season long, but it's also a fun little thing that hasn't really been explored. It also strikes me as a bit of an answer to the whole "Why doesn't the Doctor just meet Amy and Rory a few months later in New Jersey or wherever and arrange for some gravestones" complaint. Maybe we find out that he could have reunited with them at any time, but during their last adventure he saw Rory and Amy die one time too many. Seriously, he saw each of them die or get written out of time like, 3 times. Each. And that's not counting the times he didn't see it like in The Doctor's Wife! So he goes to mope on his cloud not because he's lost Amy and Rory forever, but because he feels like he's poison to everyone around him. Now that Clara has died, in a very sick and perverse way she became the perfect companion for him, because he knows she's going to make it out of whatever trouble they get into and doesn't have to worry as much about keeping her safe. In the past he hasn't been able to put himself through being with a companion after he knows their ultimate fate, but after whatever happens in the next episode he just decides that the mental anguish is worth it to spend more time with her and give her as full a life as he can. Lots of episodes take on further meaning and significance if he's traveling with her "out of order," but a standout for me is the Before the Flood episode, because once he sees his "ghost" name Clara as next in order he knows that he has to save her or he's REALLY broken the timestream and maybe blown up the universe with a paradox. Oh, and I think that he's going to admit what he's been doing to Clara and then drug her with Retcon to make her forget it. If they want to go for more of a depressing end for Clara, then that's going to be one of the last times the Doctor and Clara speak to each other, and she really does get shaded to death. Sorry for the extra long post this time, it was a really good episode and it really got me thinking, and I didn't want to do a double post or anything.
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Nov 22, 2015 11:08
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It probably wouldn't have been a good idea at all to pass the murder-tat to Me, even if the terms of the agreement worked to allow it. Trap Street is an uneasy peace, the only thing keeping the place safe was her and the deal with the Raven; if she took it, then both of those are going out the window, and even if someone did step up to replace her they probably wouldn't be able to keep it going. God drat this was a good episode.
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Nov 22, 2015 11:13
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"Is a Cyberman afraid of a peaceful death?" Are you loving kidding me.
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Nov 22, 2015 11:17
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Amazing episode! Clara gets the death she wants, but not one the Doctor can accept. Moffat better stick the landing. This is a really good setup for two fantastic final episodes. I thought it was quite interesting that Me found a way to send the Doctor out of that street with his memory intact. It seems to me like she was really trying to get him to remember this place at any cost. Either that or she's just a bit dense.
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Nov 22, 2015 11:27
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thespaceinvader posted:Finally... the graffiti TARDIS was nice, but when did Who start having stingers? I've been switching it off once the credits start, how many have I missed? Most episodes have next week's trailer at the end, but some extra scene after the credits but before "next week on Doctor Who", I haven't seen before.
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Nov 22, 2015 11:35
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Was the graffiti supposed to be a memorial by Rigsy? It only occurred to me because he was painting walls (admittedly not by choice) in Flatlined. I guess it's probably more likely to be "the Doctor has been gone so long the TARDIS got tagged!" but I had the thought.
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Nov 22, 2015 11:42
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It's supposed to be a memorial by Rigsy. He did graffiti in Flatline too and it ended up helping to save the day.
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Nov 22, 2015 11:47
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Oh right, for some reason I thought he did graffiti, but I couldn't remember for sure so I convinced myself the only paint we saw was the community service work he was doing.
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Nov 22, 2015 11:49
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NowonSA posted:Yeah, the costuming and the dial being handed off are solid indicators that we're dealing with different timelines. It's something that's been theorized pretty much all season long, but it's also a fun little thing that hasn't really been explored. It also strikes me as a bit of an answer to the whole "Why doesn't the Doctor just meet Amy and Rory a few months later in New Jersey or wherever and arrange for some gravestones" complaint. Maybe we find out that he could have reunited with them at any time, but during their last adventure he saw Rory and Amy die one time too many. Seriously, he saw each of them die or get written out of time like, 3 times. Each. And that's not counting the times he didn't see it like in The Doctor's Wife! So he goes to mope on his cloud not because he's lost Amy and Rory forever, but because he feels like he's poison to everyone around him. He can't actually get to them though. New York's spacetime around the era they got zapped to was hosed up six ways to Sunday by the Angel's constant feeding. It's more like that sneaky little bit on the Elysium when you see Eleven's suddenly got his jacket back on and tells Amy she needs to remember.
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Nov 22, 2015 12:04
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Rigsy The Idiot.
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Nov 22, 2015 12:07
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Neddy Seagoon posted:He can't actually get to them though. New York's spacetime around the era they got zapped to was hosed up six ways to Sunday by the Angel's constant feeding. It's more like that sneaky little bit on the Elysium when you see Eleven's suddenly got his jacket back on and tells Amy she needs to remember. Yeah but he's a nigh immortal dude with a time machine. He could fix the chameleon circuit, find the nearest point in spacetime to where Amy and Rory ended up that he could get to safely and then just wait for them to show up. Even if he had to show up in the 1700s he could still do it if he wanted.
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Nov 22, 2015 12:18
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Series 9 Episode 11 Never Forget
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Nov 22, 2015 12:51
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Neddy Seagoon posted:He can't actually get to them though. New York's spacetime around the era they got zapped to was hosed up six ways to Sunday by the Angel's constant feeding. It's more like that sneaky little bit on the Elysium when you see Eleven's suddenly got his jacket back on and tells Amy she needs to remember. Yeah, I don't expect them to commit to Amy and Rory's departure being even partly the Doctor's decision, it just would be a way to address a criticism I've seen pretty often. It could just as easily be solved with some technobabble about how since the Angels zapped them back and they were like, just in a paradox, the combined effect means that they can't board the Tardis. We've seen the Doctor be very resourceful in the past, and Eleven ends up chilling on Trenzalore for hundreds of years so waiting a bit doesn't seem like an issue. I don't think it's beyond his means to suggest that he could travel to another place in the world at a time when Amy and Rory are around, hop a plane or car to New York, find them, and pick them up. Ultimately the big takeaway is that it's really hard to just "write out" a companion unless you kill them, and even after Clara got hit with a death sentence that persists across all of space and time myself and others are expecting her to come out of it alive. Rose got shunted to a parallel universe and still came back. Donna had a "remember the Doctor and your head literally explodes" sendoff, and made another appearance. That's why I'm hopeful that the Doctor really is hopping back through Clara's timeline, because that's something he should always have been able to do with any companion and I'm hoping to hear from the man himself why he never does so, until (hopefully) now. It seems obvious that it's a combination of not wanting to change a future he's seen and it being painful to travel with someone when he knows what will happen to them, but best to hear that with solid writing and Capaldi chewing the scenery. Valeyard posted:Series 9 Episode 11 Never Forget 
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Nov 22, 2015 13:01
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Cliff Racer posted:Never having non-televised Who to go on, I don't think having a Cyberman is too bad, assuming its one from Mondas and not from the other dimension. Cyberization was a gradual process and even in their first appearance (cannonically way later than the early 2000s) they still were basically individuals, just severely mentally ill ones. The Tenth Planet is set in 1986
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Nov 22, 2015 13:02
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Cliff Racer posted:Never having non-televised Who to go on, I don't think having a Cyberman is too bad, assuming its one from Mondas and not from the other dimension. Cyberization was a gradual process and even in their first appearance (cannonically way later than the early 2000s) they still were basically individuals, just severely mentally ill ones. The better way to take it is that the Cybermen are a race who terminate defects, so you could argue a couple of "defective" ones trying to hide.
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Nov 22, 2015 13:07
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Can Clara even properly die? I thought she scattered herself all over the Doctors timeline. For all we know he could have been travelling with a different Clara splinter all season.
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Nov 22, 2015 13:11
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Greyhawk posted:Can Clara even properly die? I thought she scattered herself all over the Doctors timeline. For all we know he could have been travelling with a different Clara splinter all season. Her splinters only extend back along the Doctor's timeline from the point of Eleven's death at Trenzalore.
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Nov 22, 2015 13:14
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Back to good episodes. At last. Clara at the end reminded me very much of Father Octavian in Time of Angels. Octavian: Sir, the Angels are coming. You have to leave me! The Doctor: You'll die. Octavian: I will die in the knowledge that my courage did not desert me at the end. For that I thank God. And bless the path that takes you to safety. The Doctor: I wish I'd known you better. Octavian: I think, sir, you know me at my best. The Doctor: Ready? Octavian: Content. https://vimeo.com/67087657
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Nov 22, 2015 13:15
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Ofaloaf posted:Everything before then was fine., but by halfway through the death scene I was mumbling "die already" under my breath while I watched. Clara should have at least asked the Doctor before taking the tattoo. Serves her right for being smug about it.
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Nov 22, 2015 13:36
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Neddy Seagoon posted:The better way to take it is that the Cybermen are a race who terminate defects, so you could argue a couple of "defective" ones trying to hide. Yeah, I took the Cybermen there as either defects or left-behinds. Without any allies or equipment, the best a Cyberman can do to ensure the continued life of the Cybermen is to just stay alive themselves. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 13:52 on Nov 22, 2015 |
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Nov 22, 2015 13:47
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Infinitum posted:Back to good episodes. At last. Yeah. This was a beautiful moment and a really well done death. It's a good thing they copy and pasted Clara's final moments twenty times so it was even better! Joking aside, other than that though, it was an okay episode.
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Nov 22, 2015 13:51
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PriorMarcus posted:It's a good thing they copy and pasted Clara's final moments twenty times so it was even better! Oh good I'm not the only one that thought that. ANGLE! ANGLE! ANGLE! ANGLE! ANGLE! ANGLE! ANGLE!
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Nov 22, 2015 14:01
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dear god ahildr is not only a wooden actress, she's an infuriating shithead and I hope she dies terribly
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Nov 22, 2015 14:29
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CobiWann posted:Hey, guys, look what I found an in print copy of! Reminds me of about fifteen years ago when I walked into a Half Price books . . . . . . and walked out with 77 Target novelizations. Mark Gatiss retweeted this: https://twitter.com/ReetuKabra/status/668311001830436865 For shame, gentlemen. For shame!
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Nov 22, 2015 14:30
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NowonSA posted:Ultimately the big takeaway is that it's really hard to just "write out" a companion unless you kill them It's only difficult if you make it be difficult.
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Nov 22, 2015 14:31
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Another possible piece of evidence for an out of order season or the Doctor knowing Clara would die - his hesitation to help Rigsy at the beginning. Something about it seemed a little off, when he was looking away and just at the camera. Counterpoint - he seems legitimately unimpressed with the tattoo initially.
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Nov 22, 2015 14:35
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I think it's kind of sad that the second thing in my mind after watching that (the first thing was "Wow this scene is good") was "Well I sure do hope they don't ruin this great scene by bringing her back in the very next episode". You just can't trust people to say dead these days.
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Nov 22, 2015 15:10
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Count me in with the 'JUST DIE ALREADY' people. And jesus that's a lovely criminal justice system she's running there. Can't find any other ways of killing people that maybe might have done something bad. ...but, yes, a hell of a lot better than the last few heaps of poo poo we've had so that's something.
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Nov 22, 2015 15:46
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Amppelix posted:I think it's kind of sad that the second thing in my mind after watching that (the first thing was "Wow this scene is good") was "Well I sure do hope they don't ruin this great scene by bringing her back in the very next episode". You just can't trust people to say dead these days. the times a main character has "died" in the revival is straight up comical now
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Nov 22, 2015 15:46
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^ Continuity and deaths are easily the theme of this season, up to and including the reintroduction of retcon in this episode. Andrew_1985 posted:Clara should have at least asked the Doctor before taking the tattoo. Serves her right for being smug about it. Clara doesn't ask the Doctor for permission because she doesn't need it. She had her name and face in the credits last season. For all functional purposes, she is the Doctor. To that end, she gets a Doctor's death. Might as well say Nine should have asked someone before absorbing the time vortex.
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Nov 22, 2015 16:11
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Let's rewatch AAITAS tomorrow
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Nov 22, 2015 16:12
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josh04 posted:Clara doesn't ask the Doctor for permission because she doesn't need it. She had her name and face in the credits last season. For all functional purposes, she is the Doctor. To that end, she gets a Doctor's death. Might as well say Nine should have asked someone before absorbing the time vortex. Precisely. As the Doctor explains, he's not special, he's just more durable.
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Nov 22, 2015 16:14
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josh04 posted:^ Continuity and deaths are easily the theme of this season, up to and including the reintroduction of retcon in this episode. It's not about asking for permission, its about asking for advice when she is about to do something that's gonna get her killed, she had no idea what she was doing. The Doctor knows what he is doing. Likewise, Nine knew that absorbing the vortex was gonna kill him
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Nov 22, 2015 16:15
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I can't get over the monster in The Brain of Morbius. It's like something a seven year old would draw, but it just works! And I also can't stop laughing. It's a very witty script  
CobiWann fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Nov 22, 2015 |
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Nov 22, 2015 16:23
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I'll bet that Clara is dead, but this isn't the last we'll see of her. An earlier version or maybe one of the echoes will probably show up.
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Nov 22, 2015 16:41
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If Clara and Danny are dead who the hell was the Danny Pink looking fella at the end of time who was scared of what's out there?
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Nov 22, 2015 16:55
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Davros1 posted:Mark Gatiss retweeted this: This is fantastic! I've always wanted to see them do this. The only thing that would make it better would be if they'd lost to Tennant and RTD... EatinCake posted:On a lighter note- the little world they visited in this episode was great. Love me some hog-podged old fashioned pub places, and I was happy they didn't dwell too much on it. It's a place where some bad guys go to be safe. Cool. Having Cyber men in your town probably isn't a good idea, but hey, whatever. To me the town was a bit superfluous because the Doctor, going back forever, especially in his UNIT days and very notably in the new series, is all about first giving any alien he sees stranded on Earth the benefit of the doubt and an offer of a lift home. Particularly if it's just one or two and not an invasion force. He tacitly endorses Jack led Torchwood, Sarah Jane Smith, and in the audios, DI Menzies as proteges of his who help out stranded aliens. The idea that some fishhead alien or Ood has to hide in fear of the Doctor is stretching credibility.
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Nov 22, 2015 17:02
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