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Stabbatical posted:Those only happened in individual episodes, they weren't multiple season long arcs in which the companion saves The Doctor at every point in the past and he spends his whole time trying to unravel her mysterious circumstances. Series 7 was bad. Clara only got good in series 8. PriorMarcus posted:Exactly. But Clara got her super-powers from bad writing. I don't know about that one. Amy saved him from never having existed. 2house2fly posted:He escalated the stakes higher and higher every single time. What weird AU have I entered where RTD's time on the show was characterised by sensible stakes and companions who weren't Mary Sues? Yeah, half of RTDs episodes were about world ending invasions. Moffat is pretty restrained considering he mostly saves that stuff for the finale.
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Nov 22, 2015 21:24
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marktheando posted:Why do revival companions all have to be forced to quit (except for Martha)? The new series I think plays up the relationship between Doctor and companion a lot more, to the extent that it wouldn't really seem right for the companion to say "Well, that was fun, see you later." Like, Donna in particular they kind of wrote themselves into a corner on because there's no good reason she would ever want to stop travelling with the Doctor, so she has to really be forced to in a rather brutal way (though they temper it by having the Doctor tell her parents to treat her properly from now on and stop emotionally beating her into the ground.) I'm going to declare that I honestly won't be upset if Clara's death is retconned or reversed, because I dunno, it seems like a very abrupt end and companion deaths always raise the spectre of "is the Doctor really doing the right thing dragging random people off the street on life threatening adventures" which undermines the entire premise of the series.
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Nov 22, 2015 21:24
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She's only important because of the doctor tho
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Nov 22, 2015 21:27
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2house2fly posted:He escalated the stakes higher and higher every single time. What weird AU have I entered where RTD's time on the show was characterised by sensible stakes and companions who weren't Mary Sues? You really aren't catching the specifics here. Moffat raised the stakes each time as far as the danger went, but not as far as THIS IS THE DOCTOR'S GREATEST (EMOTIONAL) TRIAL that Moffat has pulled a few times. RTD would play around with that, but with stuff that was like the Time Lord Victorious, while Moffat does stuff that's supposed to be The Doctor's Darkest Day, which has been explicitly called such on two occasions at least. One was the Moment in Day of the Doctor, and the other was facing down the Master in the Graveyard at the end of season 8. And no, I don't think Martha or Donna really fit as Mary Sues, which is a terrible term to use here anyways. Clara is the most important companion ever repeatedly though. What makes her so special? She just is. The problem with her death being the same as the Doctor's death when he sacrifices himself? She didn't sacrifice herself. She did a stupid thing without knowing what she was doing. She basically got the Sixth Doctor's death, only instead of a bicycle, it was a raven.
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Nov 22, 2015 21:29
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I don't understand what Clara is meant to have misunderstood about the situation. She takes the death sentence off Riggsy because she thinks she has a better chance of escaping it than him. Twelve does the exact same thing in Mummy on the Orient Express.
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Nov 22, 2015 21:33
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Clara thought the Mayor could take off any countdown Mayor can't take off the countdown if you transfer it
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Nov 22, 2015 21:35
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NarkyBark posted:I just want something out of the new norm. Give me an alien, traitor or robot companion. Or an alien robot traitor? I've been pitching a Dalek companion for like eight years.
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Nov 22, 2015 21:39
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Burkion posted:Moffat raised the stakes each time as far as the danger went, but not as far as THIS IS THE DOCTOR'S GREATEST (EMOTIONAL) TRIAL that Moffat has pulled a few times. RTD would play around with that, but with stuff that was like the Time Lord Victorious, while Moffat does stuff that's supposed to be The Doctor's Darkest Day, which has been explicitly called such on two occasions at least. One was the Moment in Day of the Doctor, and the other was facing down the Master in the Graveyard at the end of season 8.
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Nov 22, 2015 21:41
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Acne Rain posted:Clara thought the Mayor could take off any countdown She doesn't misunderstand this though. She doesn't take the countdown knowing that it can be removed and she'll be fine. She hopes, and has a plan involving the mayor's commitment to not harming her, but she understands that she's taking a death sentence off Riggsy at her own peril. The Doctor has exactly the same choice at the end of the episode and makes exactly the same call. He hopes he can come out of the teleporter and Doctor his way out of things, but he might get teleported away and just shot in the face. It's the essence of his character, and it's ridiculous to see it as some stupid blunder which is rightly rewarded with ignominious death just because it's not specifically him doing it. DoctorWhat posted:As the Doctor explains, he's not special, he's just more durable.
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Nov 22, 2015 21:43
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Burkion posted:You really aren't catching the specifics here. It's true that Moffat always tries to make the finale something personal. First it was the entire universe regarding the Doctor as a threat. Then it was his death (twice). Series 8 is probably the most interesting one because the Doctor questions his own moral identity. This series, Moffat is taking the concept of the Time Lord Victorious, and asking how far the Doctor can go with his powers. Personally, I really dig it. Series 7 was kind of devoid of new ideas, but other than that, Moffat has managed to ask some really interesting questions about the godlike hero of this show.
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Nov 22, 2015 21:50
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CobiWann posted:I can't get over the monster in The Brain of Morbius. It's like something a seven year old would draw, but it just works! My favorite bit is when Condo is lightly touching Sarah-Jane and Solon (Philip Madoc  ) is allowing it, and then she groans and he very quietly snaps,"Okay stop that, she doesn't like it."It's just a ridiculously out of place little moment and as such it's just perfect. Best part is watching with the commentary and hearing all the guests immediately go quiet to listen and then burst out into laughter afterwards. 2house2fly posted:Oh cool, RTD's coming back! No no, you're thinking of the prophecy of the burning darkness of the dark burning in the dark prophecy of burning in the darkness!
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Nov 22, 2015 21:58
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Speaking of RTD, I read through A Writer's Tale when it first came out and loved it. Although it got pretty dark and depressing for a lot of it. Then reread it when the new extended version came out but was too drained to actually read the extended part
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Nov 22, 2015 22:02
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Also, Clara is going out the way she came in, saving the doctor so that he could continue his work. That was her original backstory.
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Nov 22, 2015 22:04
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Mooseontheloose posted:Also, Clara is going out the way she came in, saving the doctor so that he could continue his work. That was her original backstory. She didn't save the Doctor, though. Clara saved Rigsy.
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Nov 22, 2015 22:10
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Jerusalem posted:No no, you're thinking of the prophecy of the burning darkness of the dark burning in the dark prophecy of burning in the darkness! Pfft. Didn't rhyme. 
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Nov 22, 2015 22:20
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Wheat Loaf posted:Pfft. A random black woman gasps, points and says something cryptic.
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Nov 22, 2015 22:23
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I think the idea is that, while The Doctor does bluff and take risks a lot, he also has a vast collection of knowledge that prevents him from taking outright suicidal actions like Clara did this week.
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Nov 22, 2015 22:24
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Wheat Loaf posted:Pfft. RTD didn't need nursery rhymes. He had the power of "heee hee hee hee huu hee hee heeee hee hee huu".
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Nov 22, 2015 22:27
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2house2fly posted:He escalated the stakes higher and higher every single time. What weird AU have I entered where RTD's time on the show was characterised by sensible stakes and companions who weren't Mary Sues? You replied to a quote that was referencing some exact phrasing that Moffat has repeatedly used both within the programme and outside it to refer to his finales and gone "Heh that RTD eh, I get jokes". And you wonder why people don't react the way you expect. As Jeru says that's not in RTD's idiom at all. The thing is that while RTD has deservedly gotten flack (including lots from me!) for his insane recursive-stake-raising finales he honestly wasn't that ludicrous outside them. eg. And More posted:Yeah, half of RTDs episodes were about world ending invasions. Moffat is pretty restrained considering he mostly saves that stuff for the finale. This is pure revisionism. Outside of the "event" episodes (ie finales and specials - the ones you specifically mention that Moffat, by contrast, isn't restrained on!), RTD's episodes were generally very low key. The only non-special "world being attacked!" episode he wrote was Aliens of London/World War III - a deliberate subversion of the alien invasion archetype. His non-finale episodes typically are either Base Under Siege (Tooth and Claw, Midnight) or Society Gone Wrong (The Long Game, Gridlock) - not grand scale invasions.
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Nov 22, 2015 22:29
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Have to be honest - the Doctor and Rose as Angel and Buffy isn't something I really miss from RTD's time on the show. I mean, that's certainly an interesting angle, but it can be awkward to pull off. Probably more something for Big Finish, who would have more latitude to pull it off. I'm not sure if it's just a matter of the message boards I was on between 2005 and 2010, but I can distinctly remember just about every criticism that's currently levelled at Moffat being brought against RTD as well.
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Nov 22, 2015 22:33
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Yeah, RTD got a huge amount of flak when he was showrunner - some of it was very justified, a lot of it was overblown, and Moffat is pretty much in the same boat now. Whoever the next showrunner is will be after the initial honeymoon period too.
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Nov 22, 2015 22:35
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When it comes to finales I've preferred the more personal attacks against The Doctor throughout Moffat's run. It tends to lead to some interesting character moments rather than "Those guys who always try to DESTROY THE WORLD are trying to DESTROY THE WORLD again, oh no!"
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Nov 22, 2015 22:37
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Valeyard posted:The show these days is most certainly more about the companion than it is The Doctor, and that's too bad Agreed, we should go back to the days before those stupid characters Chesterton and Wright started overshadowing him qntm posted:I've been pitching a Dalek companion for like eight years. Everyone involved with making a robot companion dies suddenly, so there's good reason not to Maxwell Lord posted:The new series I think plays up the relationship between Doctor and companion a lot more, to the extent that it wouldn't really seem right for the companion to say "Well, that was fun, see you later." I dunno, Jo Grant (and UNIT to some extent, but mostly Jo) was really built up as the Doctor's surrogate family during his exile and more of her exit was made than almost all other companions. I don't think it's a coincidence that she was also the one with the most implied "life" outside of the adventures, but she left fairly straightforwardly in the end - going off with someone else to have different adventures. I should probably write that essay on "What are companions for?" that I've been sketching out.
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Nov 22, 2015 22:42
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MrL_JaKiri posted:This is pure revisionism. We're talking about RTD and Moffat as showrunners, though, right? I mean, Moffat doesn't write normal episodes anymore, anyway. The specials are generally not as world ending in series five, six and eight. Series eight presented two episodes with seemingly world-ending scenarios that would have been resolved without the Doctor even showing up. Meanwhile, we've got RTD's accumulated Doomsday scenarios all happening in a row in Turn Left.
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Nov 22, 2015 22:47
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I think the idea is that, while The Doctor does bluff and take risks a lot, he also has a vast collection of knowledge that prevents him from taking outright suicidal actions like Clara did this week. I mean... not really. Ignoring that he specifically couldn't have known the information which would have helped Clara because it was an entirely contingent fact about the mayor's deal with the raven, the Doctor regularly performs suicidal actions which he can't avoid, like absorbing time vortexes, entering radiation chambers, rolling in toxic weeds etc.
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Nov 22, 2015 22:48
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Irony Be My Shield posted:When it comes to finales I've preferred the more personal attacks against The Doctor throughout Moffat's run. It tends to lead to some interesting character moments rather than "Those guys who always try to DESTROY THE WORLD are trying to DESTROY THE WORLD again, oh no!" I'd disagree; on even the most basic level it's hard to argue that Journey's End and The End of Time don't have any interesting character moments. In general I think the concentration on the Doctor as an individual is a fatal flaw of them, and a large part of why I care for precisely none of Moffat's "event" episodes. Not The Big Bang, not The Day of the Doctor, not The Witch's Familiar, none of them. The more important the Doctor is to the universe, the less important the universe. It was somewhat heartening when Moffat seemed to realise that this was a problem but then he immediately went back to the same well with twice the intensity.
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Nov 22, 2015 22:51
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Does anyone know why they're going back to two-part DVD releases for season nine? Last year they did the "Deep Breath" single-disc then had the complete season eight set out in time for Christmas, but I was looking on Amazon the other day and it seems as though season nine part two won't be out until early next year (no word on when the full thing will be out, either).
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Nov 22, 2015 22:58
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And More posted:We're talking about RTD and Moffat as showrunners, though, right? Even if we're talking about the programme as a whole rather than them as writers I think the difference lies not in the stakes of the stories under their watch (which isn't always up to them, anyway), but rather the setting. RTD always preferred a modern day setting because he thought it helped the audience relate (and maybe he was right). That means that more stories tended to involve an alien coming to Earth and wrecking up the place, rather than the rather less, uh, grounded ideas like The Rings of Akhaten.
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Nov 22, 2015 23:04
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MrL_JaKiri posted:His non-finale episodes typically are either Base Under Siege (Tooth and Claw, Midnight) or Society Gone Wrong (The Long Game, Gridlock) - not grand scale invasions. I rewatched Midnight the other day. It still holds up as one of the best NuWho single episodes imo.
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Nov 22, 2015 23:07
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PriorMarcus posted:It's going to be another sexy girl whose the most important person in the world to help the Doctor out when he faces his darkest day and greatest trial. Yeah, its gonna be this, unfortunately. I can't see them having an old man doctor and a not young woman companion.
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Nov 22, 2015 23:08
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seizure later posted:I rewatched Midnight the other day. It still holds up as one of the best NuWho single episodes imo. On the other hand, you said 'NuWho' unironically so we know what your opinion is worth. I like Midnight too
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Nov 22, 2015 23:26
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Even if we're talking about the programme as a whole rather than them as writers I think the difference lies not in the stakes of the stories under their watch (which isn't always up to them, anyway), but rather the setting. RTD always preferred a modern day setting because he thought it helped the audience relate (and maybe he was right). That means that more stories tended to involve an alien coming to Earth and wrecking up the place, rather than the rather less, uh, grounded ideas like The Rings of Akhaten. Sure, setting can be important, but the circumstances are what interests me more. Moffat likes monsters hiding in children's closets, and the big invasion always seem secondary. Even the Rings of Akhaten is, for all its pomp, mainly about saving one girl from being sacrificed. In contrast, something like The Christmas Invasion or The Runaway Bride raises the stakes by getting everyone on earth as one homogenous blob involved. Dabir posted:I like Midnight too Midnight is really good. I avoid watching it, though. That episode gives me a headache. And More fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Nov 22, 2015 |
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Nov 22, 2015 23:30
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Wheat Loaf posted:Does anyone know why they're going back to two-part DVD releases for season nine? Last year they did the "Deep Breath" single-disc then had the complete season eight set out in time for Christmas, but I was looking on Amazon the other day and it seems as though season nine part two won't be out until early next year (no word on when the full thing will be out, either). Probably so the Xmas episode can be included on the second part.
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Nov 22, 2015 23:34
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And More posted:Sure, setting can be important, but the circumstances are what interests me more. Moffat likes monsters hiding in children's closets, and the big invasion always seem secondary. Even the Rings of Akhaten is, for all its pomp, mainly about saving one girl from being sacrificed. In contrast, something like The Christmas Invasion or The Runaway Bride raises the stakes by getting everyone on earth as one homogenous blob involved. He liked big stakes in his "event" episodes (finales and specials), I know. I said this!
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Nov 22, 2015 23:41
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And More posted:Even The Runaway Bride is, for all its pomp, mainly about saving one middle-aged woman from being sacrificed. In contrast, something like the Rings of Akhaten raises the stakes by getting everyone on Akhaten as one homogenous blob involved. Huh.
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Nov 22, 2015 23:47
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Dabir posted:On the other hand, you said 'NuWho' unironically so we know what your opinion is worth. I w-was being ironic...I....
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Nov 22, 2015 23:51
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MrL_JaKiri posted:He liked big stakes in his "event" episodes (finales and specials), I know. I said this! You're right, I picked those because I felt the world ending stuff was particularly pointless in those episodes. The only one of your examples that really doesn't involve all of humanity is Midnight, though. Even Tooth and Claw is kind of out there considering they're trying to establish a wolf empire. Let's take World War Three and Partners in Crime as examples, then. 
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Nov 22, 2015 23:56
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Let me interrupt to say... NO! Not The Mind Probe. "The Five Doctors" is some dumb fun.
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Nov 22, 2015 23:57
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Dabir posted:
The Runaway Bride results in the end of humanity if the Doctor never shows up. That's the difference. In Rings of Akhaten, the girl gets sacrificed, and all is fine and dandy.
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Nov 23, 2015 00:07
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egon_beeblebrox posted:"The Five Doctors" is some dumb fun. There's a bit early in the story where a High Council Member tells the President something like,"Your current regeneration is a bit of a grump" and Borusa makes this amazing, exasperated "This loving guy" face 
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Nov 23, 2015 00:13
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