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BravestOfTheLamps posted:"Revolutionizing the anti-hero genre" is an utterly meaningless statement. Maybe but the context of that tweet in this thread was FourLeaf pointing out that all the reviews praising Jessica Jones for being revolutionary were operating under a false premise. She isn't revolutionary, just archetypal.
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Nov 24, 2015 10:47
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HIJK posted:Maybe but the context of that tweet in this thread was FourLeaf pointing out that all the reviews praising Jessica Jones for being revolutionary were operating under a false premise. She isn't revolutionary, just archetypal. That is also dumb.
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Nov 24, 2015 10:52
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How is Jessica a bad person? Jessica seems like a very good person. She seems like a person who is sorely out of her depth because the person antagonizing her is bumfuck crazy. What actual bad things did she do? Just because she's not Forrest Gump who has pennies fall from heaven doesn't mean she's a bad person.
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Nov 24, 2015 11:02
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Yeah I don't get where,"She is actually a bad person" is coming from either. She's a very hosed up person, for a variety of reasons, but I don't see her as being revealed to be at heart an actual bad human being at all. She alternates between trying to do the "right" thing and becoming depressed/angry and lashing out at others, but the very fact she's often wracked with guilt over some of the stuff she does (in direct contrast to Kilgrave) I think goes to show that she very much knows right from wrong, and is willing to face up to her own shortcomings (again, in contrast to Kilgrave, as well as Simpson or even Trish' mom).
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Nov 24, 2015 11:10
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Blah, this show really didn't do it for me. JJ is a boring superhero, which is fine i guess cause i understood by episode 1 that they weren't going for the superhero angle, but then she's also a really REALLY bad detective so i had no idea what the point was. Then Killgrave got more screentime and he was really good so i kept watching, but eeehhh, JJ was such a boring character that i won't be watching the next season. Killed some time with a okay binge i guess.
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Nov 24, 2015 11:12
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Drifter posted:How is Jessica a bad person? Jessica seems like a very good person. She seems like a person who is sorely out of her depth because the person antagonizing her is bumfuck crazy. What actual bad things did she do? Just because she's not Forrest Gump who has pennies fall from heaven doesn't mean she's a bad person. I thought her insistence that it had to be her who dealt with him was a bit selfish considering the fact there are established people like captain America and Tony stark that she should have involved once the bodies started piling up.
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Nov 24, 2015 11:16
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Ravel posted:I thought her insistence that it had to be her who dealt with him was a bit selfish considering the fact there are established people like captain America and Tony stark that she should have involved once the bodies started piling up. It seemed like it was more about survival. In her experience, EVERYONE who came into contact with Kilgrave was controlled by him. Could she not have been selfish since having a more powerful person getting controlled would have been even worse? Also, she DID accept Nuke's help in the beginning, who was a cop/government representative, and worked with him before he went off the rails. She wanted to save an innocent girl's life, and to do that she needed proof that Kilgrave could do what she was saying he could do. She did a lot of good things, and people around her were the ones screwing that all up. And as with anything comics, just because one thing exists in that universe doesn't mean its able to be used. Let the Avengers exists as a fact, not a function. Drifter fucked around with this message at 11:25 on Nov 24, 2015 |
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Nov 24, 2015 11:21
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Jerusalem posted:Yeah I don't get where,"She is actually a bad person" is coming from either. She's a very hosed up person, for a variety of reasons, but I don't see her as being revealed to be at heart an actual bad human being at all. Also, I don't see how she's "an antihero." She's a reluctantly heroic figure, to be sure, but her entire MO for most of the season is to "do the right thing" and beat Kilgrave in a way that leaves him alive enough to exonerate his victims. Walter White or Tony Soprano are literally criminals whose motivations are self-interest and profit. Jessica Jones is a flawed regular hero...no "anti" about it.
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Nov 24, 2015 11:39
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Is this guy seriously saying that JJ is a bad anti-hero because he can't live vicarious violence fantasies through her? You're missing his point super hard and projecting a lot of crazy things on to a random guy you don't even know. He was reacting to an article essentially saying "With Jessica Jones we created a female equivalent of Tony Soprano!" But this is totally ludicrous. Jessica Jones is nowhere near as bad as Tony Soprano, a true psychopath who heads the god drat Mafia. If anything, Kilgrave is closer to Tony. He's criticizing the wildly differing definitions of "antihero" for men vs. women in fiction that a lot of critics are using when they talk about this show. That's what I was agreeing with. I think Jessica is a good character, but if the definition of an antihero is "a protagonist that lacks heroic qualities," then she doesn't fit, because she has MANY heroic qualities, and keeps trying to do good even when she fails or it means sacrificing herself. For example, going to extreme lengths to keep Kilgrave alive to exonerate Hope and all his other victims, even though the pragmatic thing to do would be to kill him and let Hope rot in jail. Or framing herself and trying to go to prison for life in order to stop Kilgrave from killing more people. Or hell, every time she's standing close enough to snap his neck but doesn't because a person nearby is holding a knife to their own throat. Equating Jessica with outright evil protagonists like Tony Soprano because she's an alcoholic and is traumatized is loving ridiculous. If Tony is an anti-hero, then she isn't one- otherwise the meaning of the word would be useless. By the previous definition, the closest thing we've gotten to a revolutionary female antihero is Claire Underwood. And you trying to say Jessica is a terrible person because she has powers but fails to utilize them is pretty weird. Does intent not matter to you at all? Her not being effective despite trying to be good makes her even worse than actively evil characters like Walter White, etc.? Forgive me for not linking the entire series of tweets, but holy poo poo, calm down you angry person. E: ^^^^ above post: Yeah, exactly ^^^^ FourLeaf fucked around with this message at 12:15 on Nov 24, 2015 |
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Nov 24, 2015 11:48
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All my heroes scapegoat blacks to steal drugs from hospitals.
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Nov 24, 2015 12:14
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FourLeaf posted:You're missing his point super hard and projecting a lot of crazy things on to a random guy you don't even know. I definitely missed the point, okay. Sorry about that. But your mistake is equating "lack of heroic qualities" with "evil", and "heroic qualities" with "trying to do good". Now Jessica Jones is a bad person and not a hero: the whole crux of the series is that the only thing that separates JJ from the rest of the world is her super-strength. Consider the flashbacks to her adult life pre-Kilgrave: she's basically the same as him. Jessica Jones extorts someone so that she can coast through life for a few months, and humiliates a man she finds obnoxious (granted, it's mostly him). This is called "'being kind of a bad person". Now this isn't saying that she is evil, or deserves anything that happens to her, just that she's equal to the people around her. After Kilgrave she's become worse. She makes an outright career of exploiting people's weaknesses, and she's violently dysfunctional. She spends most of the series on a quest to free Hope by using Kilgrave, and uses countless people for her purposes. She constantly lashes out with violence and almost always at people weaker than her. Robyn is actually kind of right when she turns the support group against JJ. But this is bad because it's merely returning the abuse JJ gives, just like JJ just returns the abuse directed at her. Obviously there's The Rolling Stones article is not good, but it is accurate in that Jessica Jones is an anti-hero. She lacks heroic qualities (idealism, integrity, etc) despite being the protagonist. Tony Soprano is actually more heroic (in the classical sense, and you can't argue about anti-heroes when you don't use the classical definition) because he's a man of action and a pillar of the community despite being a sociopathic criminal. Junkfist posted:All my heroes scapegoat blacks to steal drugs from hospitals. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 13:13 on Nov 24, 2015 |
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Nov 24, 2015 12:19
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Kilgrave: I do bad things because of horrifying trauma. Goon: That doesn't justify what you've done. Jessica Jones: I do bad things because of horrifying trauma. Goon: Oh my gosh what a hero!
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Nov 24, 2015 12:47
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Kilgrave: I do bad things because of horrifying trauma. But what bad things did she do? She didn't hurt anybody taking those drugs, and they were used to stop a murderer. She tried to use 'semi-appropriate' channels first. She didn't kill Cage's wife, Kilgrave did, through her. Drifter fucked around with this message at 12:58 on Nov 24, 2015 |
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Nov 24, 2015 12:54
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She let him ..................... inside of her.
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Nov 24, 2015 12:56
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Junkfist posted:She let him ..................... inside of her. Hmm, okay, that's fair.
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Nov 24, 2015 12:58
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Kilgrave: I do bad things because of horrifying trauma. It hardly matters that she tends to be pretty bad at her job since we can see the storyline from her perspective and understand and empathize with why exactly she does the things she does. So she exploits Malcolm. She's also the one who directly, personally helps end his addiction later on, and then degrades herself to Kilgrave on a daily basis to keep him from hurting Malcolm further. So she brings together a bunch of Kilgrave victims to find clues about Kilgrave. Who cares? No one forced them into the terrible act of banding together to try and recover, and why wouldn't they want to help her catch him? So she fucks Luke while withholding the fact that she killed his wife...well, okay, that one's pretty lovely, but presumably it'll be dealt with as well eventually.
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Nov 24, 2015 13:07
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BrianWilly posted:So she exploits Malcolm.  
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Nov 24, 2015 13:11
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Like I said, things end up okay for him, mostly due to Jessica's efforts.
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Nov 24, 2015 13:15
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BrianWilly posted:Like I said, things end up okay for him, mostly due to Jessica's efforts. "I can't save you." - Jessica to Malcolm "You choose." - Jessica, giving drugs to a drug addict
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Nov 24, 2015 13:19
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If you want to say that anyone who is mean or petty or frames a friend for a crime is an anti-hero then basically every protagonist becomes an antihero, and this is ridiculous. Spider-Man let his uncle die because he was selfish, which is way worse than making your neighbour look clumsy in a hospital as a distraction while you steal drugs. Superman lied to Lois about his identity and had sex with her. Batman kept a hunchback as his slave and made him build gadgets for him. Antiheroes are people like Bad Lieutenant and Bad Santa, they're actual bad people who don't feel pity or remorse.
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Nov 24, 2015 13:21
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I definitely missed the point, okay. Sorry about that. Ohhh, OK. Overall I completely agree with your point that Jessica is "kind of a bad person." My problem was I thought you were saying her bad acts with good intentions made her more evil than a person like Walter White, when you were actually saying they made her more of an anti-hero. So the disagreement comes from us using different definitions of anti-hero. When I've discussed TV shows or movies, or hell, when most articles go on about ~Great Prestige Dramas With Anti-hero Protagonists~, like the Sopranos, Breaking Bad, House of Cards, Deadwood, etc. the definition of what exactly is an anti-hero is assumed by everyone to be: Outright evil person, aka villain is the protagonist, subverting the traditional role of the hero, hence they are an ANTI-hero. So compared to people like Tony Soprano or Francis Underwood, Jessica Jones just never descended to that level. Thus, with that definition, she is definitely a flawed hero, but not a fully fledged anti-hero. I think the only disagreement we really have now is that it's incredibly unfair for you to say people "can't argue about anti-heroes when they don't use the classical definition" when you are literally the first person I've ever seen that uses the Classical Greek definition of hero to judge modern-day media. I suppose the definition was warped over time, but that definitely isn't the mainstream use of the term now. Frankly, I think my definition is more useful because it's not incredibly broad.
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Nov 24, 2015 13:34
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Jessica was incredibly selfish and self centered in the beginning of the series and hurt a lot of people using Kilgrave's tactics of manipulation. I don't think she actually changed at the end of the series that much either. Jessica manipulates people like crazy in the series and most of the time they are unaware of it. However, every time she does it results in something bad happening to her. She manipulates Malcolm into getting the drugs, which results in the plan not working because Kilgrave just hires people in case she's successful in her plan. She manipulates Luke Cage into sleeping with her using deception and he ends up being enthralled by Kilgrave because she doesn't trust him and tell him the truth so he goes after Kilgrave. She manipulates the support group into forming to find more information about Kilgrave ,which results in them freeing him at some point. She manipulates Kilgraves parents and that ends up making him more powerful and them dyeing. It's pretty much when she stops being deceptive and using people to further her own ends that she catches Kilgrave. That was what I felt was the whole point was that it was when she started being open and honest with people things started changing for her. So yeah, Jessica is a lot like Kilgrave in that she actively deceives or manipulates people. Hollismason fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Nov 24, 2015 |
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Nov 24, 2015 13:35
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XboxPants posted:You may have a point. Give Jessica some more time in Defenders (and maybe in Luke Cage too), and then instead of making another Jessica Jones season right away, shift the main focus to Trish next and do a season of Hellcat, with her investigating IGH and Jessica's origins. Jessica can still be a major character, but her issues won't be the spotlight. Then maybe rotate back to Jessica for the season after that. Man I would watch the poo poo out of Hellcat
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Nov 24, 2015 14:10
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Hollismason posted:Jessica was incredibly selfish and self centered in the beginning of the series and hurt a lot of people using Kilgrave's tactics of manipulation. I don't think she actually changed at the end of the series that much either. 
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Nov 24, 2015 14:15
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This is kind of a dumb discussion and I think everyone is coming to the same conclusions. Is Jessica an antihero? Yes. She's an alcoholic, rude, tends to be manipulative (the support group). As has been mentioned, this is the definition of an antihero. Is she revolutionary? gently caress no. She's basically playing the role of every noire detective ever, only with superpowers. It's pretty clean cut. Lotta long-rear end posts basically saying nothing.
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Nov 24, 2015 15:37
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I'm not comfortable calling Jessica an anti-hero. To me, an anti-hero is someone like Walter White. Or more close to home in comics, Punisher or Scourge of the Underworld. They are doing bad things for good intentions but still ultimately recognize that they are bad things. And they don't even consider the non-bad-thing option unless forced to. I wouldn't go so far as to say Jessica is a hero at this point either. I think she's selfish, and I don't think the events of the show will cause her to be any less selfish. She's trying to do good with good intentions but often goes about it in a hosed up, go it alone way because of her trust issues and PTSD. To me, an anti-hero would've immedietly jumped to "kill the fucker" but Jessica fights that option for the longest time. Publicly she says it is because of Hope but I don't think that's entirely the reason. I don't think she's a killer at heart and she only gets to that option after every other plan has gone to complete poo poo.
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Nov 24, 2015 15:42
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Snak posted:they told him the truth about the situation and trust him, and he basically said "well I can handle this, you guys are just being dumb about it" and then guess what, he was wrong and it didn't go great. If he had actually teamed up with them and treated them as equals rather than women in a man's world (of paramilitary conflict), I think he would have gotten a lot more sympathy. Whaaaat? Jessica's plans were so bad that Hope literally killed herself to get her to knock the poo poo off. At which point she went off to do what Simpson was trying to do all along, which was kill the magically unarrestable serial killer on a permanent spree. Jessica's collateral damage from saving Kilgrave's life over and over was straight up tragi-comic.
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Nov 24, 2015 15:50
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Accretionist posted:Whaaaat? Jessica's plans were so bad that Hope literally killed herself to get her to knock the poo poo off. At which point she went off to do what Simpson was trying to do all along, which was kill the magically unarrestable serial killer on a permanent spree. Her plan in which she did capture him? It was going to work until Jeri hosed it up.
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Nov 24, 2015 15:52
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PantsBandit posted:This is kind of a dumb discussion and I think everyone is coming to the same conclusions. Is Jessica an antihero? Yes. She's an alcoholic, rude, tends to be manipulative (the support group). As has been mentioned, this is the definition of an antihero. Is she revolutionary? gently caress no. She's basically playing the role of every noire detective ever, only with superpowers. It's pretty clean cut. Oh no she drinks and is rude she's such an antihero. oh gosh.
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Nov 24, 2015 16:12
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Drifter posted:Oh no she drinks and is rude she's such an antihero. oh gosh. The literal definition of an antihero is a protagonist with "non-heroic" qualities. And saying "she drinks" is being idiotic. Part of her characterization is that she is an alcoholic. This is different from just drinking.
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Nov 24, 2015 16:15
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Yeah if JJ is an anti-hero then Sam Spade and Mike Hammer are anti-heroes.
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Nov 24, 2015 16:17
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zoux posted:Yeah if JJ is an anti-hero then Sam Spade and Mike Hammer are anti-heroes. Well I haven't seen Maltese Falcon but google tells me they're pulp detective protagonists so..yeah? Probably?
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Nov 24, 2015 16:20
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PantsBandit posted:Well I haven't seen Maltese Falcon but google tells me they're pulp detective protagonists so..yeah? Probably? No.
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Nov 24, 2015 16:22
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zoux posted:No. "So far as violence is concerned, the Hammer novels leave little to the imagination. Written in the first person, Hammer describes his violent encounters with relish. In all but a few novels, Hammer's victims are often left vomiting after a blow to the stomach or groin." "In The Big Kill Hammer describes himself to a bargirl as a misanthrope. " Oh you're right, doesn't sound like an antihero at all
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Nov 24, 2015 16:26
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If they are working for good, if their goals are what we would consider socially worthwhile, like getting an innocent girl freed as opposed to, say, building a huge meth empire, then they aren't anti heroes.
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Nov 24, 2015 16:30
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zoux posted:If they are working for good, if their goals are what we would consider socially worthwhile, like getting an innocent girl freed as opposed to, say, building a huge meth empire, then they aren't anti heroes. Oh ok so you just have a fundamental misunderstanding of the term then. Good to know I can stop taking this seriously.
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Nov 24, 2015 16:33
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I really enjoy how the last 10 pages or so are filled with people stating their dumb opinions as fact then getting utterly indignant if anyone disagrees
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Nov 24, 2015 16:36
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zoux posted:If they are working for good, if their goals are what we would consider socially worthwhile, like getting an innocent girl freed as opposed to, say, building a huge meth empire, then they aren't anti heroes. 
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Nov 24, 2015 16:42
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BrianWilly posted:They don't even show butts in these shows, they're not gonna show boobs. Man did you just miss all of episode 1? Because drat. 
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Nov 24, 2015 16:57
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Basically every protagonist these days is an anti-hero because mass media access has gotten people bored of the concept of the archetypal hero. This has gone so far that some of the more iconic anti-heroes (Tony Soprano, Walter White) are such terrible people they barely even qualify a anti-heroes anymore, since it's pretty hard to find a single heroic quality for their non-heroic ones to play off of.BravestOfTheLamps posted:Kilgrave: I do bad things because of horrifying trauma. Kilgrave doesn't do bad things because of horrifying trauma. That's just the fun narrative he's constructed about himself. Kilgrave does bad things because he loves it and he's too much of a narcissist to actually tell they are bad.
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Nov 24, 2015 16:58
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