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Cacotopic Stain posted:I don't mean to sound offensive but I heard that magic is forbidden. How much does this apply to fiction like not reading Harry Potter for example? It really depends on how "conservative" people are. I find generally that people don't mind reading works of fiction like that, even some conservative minded people.
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Nov 14, 2015 16:13
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I want to know about the concept of sin, condemnation, forgiveness, and redemption in Islam. Islam and Christianity both agree with worshipping the one God, who appeared to Abraham and Moses, and following His law. For Christians, this can often lead to the stumbling block of overwhelming guilt and shame as one becomes aware of their sins in contrast to the holiness of God. Many Christians plunge into a spiritual depression, knowing they can never live up to the standards of God through our actions. For Christians, the way out of this, and the entire way to knowing and loving God is through Christ. It is because of Christ's sacrifice that we are made righteous and justified before God. My limited understanding of Islam is that Christ is not viewed as the divine messiah, but as a prophet. Without the sacrifice of Christ paying the cost of our sin, how can we live with ourselves as sinners? What hope is there for us?
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Nov 16, 2015 16:12
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Do Muslims believe that death is the consequence of sin? Do Muslims agree that God delivered the law to Moses? Do Muslims agree that all people are sinners according to the law? Without the sacrificial logic of Christ, is not all of humanity condemned if God is Just? I appreciate this educational thread thank you
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Nov 16, 2015 16:20
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Commie NedFlanders posted:I want to know about the concept of sin, condemnation, forgiveness, and redemption in Islam. Muslims believe the Jesus is the Christ, Messiah of Israel prophesied about. He is not only the Christ (one who establishes Godly justice on earth), but a Messenger (came with a book) and a Prophet (received divine revelation), but not God or part of God in a "Godhead". He has no divine attributes and it is an unforgivable sin (shirk) for those who know better to worship, venerate or pray to him or anyone(thing). Gods Oneness means that He is unlike and far removed form being like anything in creation, He is Unique. We also believe in Jesus Christ's Second Coming to establish Just Rule (Gods Kingdom) on the earth prior to the Day of Judgment. We dont believe in human sacrifice and do not believe that God would require suffering and death through human sacrifice as a condition of forgiveness. God is Most Just and it would amount to an injustice to hold one accountable for the sins of another. Like Judaism we believe the role of Messiah is not a divine role (in that the Messiah is God or part of God) but a human role, but unlike Judaism we believe Jesus fills that role. Muslims believe that everyone is born a "Muslim" , ei the word Muslim means "one who submits to God and gains peace" as a result. We believe that it is the parents who change their religion either at birth or through their lifetime from being a Muslim. Hence, when I accepted Islam I am considered a "revert" to Islam and not a "convert" to Islam. We accept what God gave us at birth and come back to it. In believing this, we accept that all humans are born perfect as God intended them and without being accountable for sin until the age of accountability which generally speaking is puberty. We do not inherit sin from other people, ei the sin of Adam No human (no animal, rock, wood, statue etc either) can intercede on our behalf for our sins. We are responsible for our own sin, repentance and salvation. There is no mediator between us and God, we have a direct line to his ear if we choose to repent and ask forgiveness, He is Most Gracious and Most Understanding. Our salvation depends on our repentance and God is Most Merciful and Most Forgiving to forgive us our sins that we do not realise we committed or haven't for some reason had a chance to repent from prior to death (say a sudden and unplanned getting hit by a bus crossing the street).  Regarding the act of atonement for sins in Christianity, we differ in that we believe that Jesus was not Crucified but God answered his prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane to save him from the cross and instead his betrayer who appeared like him was crucified in his place. Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Nov 16, 2015 |
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Nov 16, 2015 16:36
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Commie NedFlanders posted:Do Muslims believe that death is the consequence of sin? Do Muslims agree that God delivered the law to Moses? Do Muslims agree that all people are sinners according to the law? Muslims believe that sin will lead a person to the ultimate death, Hellfire. We believe in Moses who was both a Messenger and a Prophet. As in my previous post, we do not inherit sin but are responsible for our own sins. The only people who have not sinned in a grave of venial manner are the Prophets/Messengers. God purified them completely from committing sin intentionally. All of sound mind and beyond the age of accountability are called to repentance and granted forgiveness. Those not of sound mind or below the age of accountability are automatically granted forgiveness. Your last question, I think I answered in my previous post. If not just hit me up again and Ill try better
Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Nov 16, 2015 |
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Nov 16, 2015 16:57
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Amun Khonsu posted:All of sound mind and beyond the age of accountability are called to repentance and granted forgiveness. Could you tell us what this involves? If one wishes to "repent" then what should one do? How does this process differ from minor misdemeanors to more serious crimes?
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Nov 16, 2015 18:39
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Commie NedFlanders posted:Do Muslims believe that death is the consequence of sin? Do Muslims agree that God delivered the law to Moses? Do Muslims agree that all people are sinners according to the law? Why death is a thing, according to Islam, is a pretty varied topic. The answers range from "Because Allah wants it to be so" to the somewhat more philosophical "because this life would be infinitely less beautiful and magnificent if it were eternal" in the same sense that people talk about sadness making happiness all that much sharper. I tend to go more towards the latter idea, that our biological life spans are finite because it gives us a sharper and more full enjoyment of what time we do have, hopefully. To my mind, verses like this give an indication that death isn't an end, but rather a moment when we finally have answers, to questions we might not have even realized we had: Say: 'Death, from which you are fleeing, will certainly catch up with you. Then you will be returned to the Knower of the Unseen and the Visible and He will inform you about what you did.' -- Quran 62:8 Blurred posted:Could you tell us what this involves? If one wishes to "repent" then what should one do? How does this process differ from minor misdemeanors to more serious crimes? quote:I was asked, “How does one exactly perform Tawbah (the Arabic word for “repentance”)?” Is it a very difficult and long process where one has to go to an Imam or Qaadi (judge) and ‘confess’ his sins, as is the case in some other religions? The answer is no. This is a matter between you and your Lord. This is obviously as long as the sin or evil deed you did does not involve another human being. In that case, a person would have to generally (though this is not always the case) go to that person & give him his right back. For example, if you stole or if you fought someone – you need to go back to that person and say that you’re sorry.
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Nov 16, 2015 19:16
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Blurred posted:Could you tell us what this involves? If one wishes to "repent" then what should one do? How does this process differ from minor misdemeanors to more serious crimes? Yes. After realizing one has committed a sin, a person only needs to make the intention and then ask God to forgive them knowing full well that they will do their best not to fall into the sin again. It's preferable to do this immediately with a simple prayer. No special ritual. You can do it in your mind and heart or out loud. All it has to be is an acknowledgement of the sin to God (no need to confess to a mediator like a priest), determine oneself to try hard not to commit the sin and ask for forgiveness. Minor sins we ask forgiveness for just the same as the major ones, however with the major ones are the ones that separate us from the grace of God and more importance is placed on resolving this immediately as there is greater punishment in the afterlife, especially if one is not sincere. If the sin involved harming another person it is better to resolve the issue with them and ask their forgiveness too and make amends. However, God's forgiveness is not tied to whether they forgive you or not. If you tried your best, then God will forgive you. Also, regardless of if we know we sinned or if we knew it and forgot to ask forgiveness or for some reason could not otherwise make amends with God or each other, but we continue to try to do our best, God can forgive us even without asking because He is the Master of the Day of Judgement and can do anything He wishes regarding our fallible nature. He is Most Forgiving, Merciful and Understanding even where humans are not. With regards to my statement about "of sound mind and age of accountability", because we do not believe we are inherently evil and do not inherit the sin of another person (ie Adam), the mentally ill, indefinitely incapacitated, some cases of severe physical handicap from birth and the young (even aborted or lost babies) are not held to account on the Day of Judgement. Instead, when they die, they go directly to Jennah (Heaven; Paradise). The people who have not had the chance to hear the message of Islam will be given a chance to believe after they die when the angels come to them to take their soul into the grave and offer them the choice to believe in God and accept salvation.
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Nov 16, 2015 19:33
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Thank you for the detailed responses! It's interesting how alike the different paths are and how different. I would like to know more. One of the things that was difficult to understand for me was the seeming paradox of God being Just and at the same time forgiving sinners. This makes sense to me Christ is viewed as divine, but seems impossible if he is not. If God is absolutely transcendent, how do we silly sinful humans come to relate to Him, know Him, or love Him? Not looking at the idea of original sin, but only intentional sin, that still covers just about all of humanity. The Old Testament descriptions of God are frightening and show his absolute Justice. How can someone who has sinned against God not completely hate themselves? I'm probably gonna have a lot of questions and I want to be respectful so please bear with me and let me know if I'm not
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Nov 16, 2015 20:30
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Do Muslims consider their views on God to be held by faith, different types of knowledge, or both?
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Nov 16, 2015 20:47
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Do muslims pray for or on behalf of others? "Dear Alah, please keep my son safe" or "Please God, help my friend find faith in you" or "God, comfort those who grieve after the earthquake" etc? Talking of forgiveness, how do muslims view forgiving others? Is there a concept of trying to forgive those who wrong you? Are you a better muslim if you forgive the person who stole something rather than seeking punishment?
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Nov 16, 2015 23:46
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Commie NedFlanders posted:Thank you for the detailed responses! According to Islam, God is Just, Omnipotent, Self Sustaining and Master of Creation and any intelligent being in His creation (that has free will) can of their own free will speak to Him and attain forgiveness, even for intentional sins, through repentance. God does not want for anything, nor does He need anyone or anything to mediate on His behalf. We have a direct line to Him and He is All Powerful and All Forgiving. The idea of the Christ (Moshiach;Messiah) being divine is particular to Christianity and based primarily (but not entirely) in Paul's teaching, but not Judaism where it originated. Islam, like Judaism, believes he is a human and not divine. Commie NedFlanders posted:Do Muslims consider their views on God to be held by faith, different types of knowledge, or both? I'm assuming this question is referring to the existence of God versus science? Islam teaches us to first have faith in God's revelation, but that the human endeavour is to seek knowledge of all kinds and discover the wonders of Creation and faith. Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Nov 17, 2015 |
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Nov 17, 2015 01:42
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BattyKiara posted:Do muslims pray for or on behalf of others? "Dear Alah, please keep my son safe" or "Please God, help my friend find faith in you" or "God, comfort those who grieve after the earthquake" etc? Hi BattyKiara. Yes, Muslims do often ask Allah for the safety, help or blessing of the people they love and care about. We also pray for our nations and sometimes that of others whether Muslim or not and especially during times of great tragedy. Islam teaches us to forgive unconditionally. Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Garden whose width is that (of the whole) of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous,- Those who spend (freely), whether in prosperity, or in adversity; who restrain anger, and pardon (all) men;- for Allah loves those who do good;- Qur'an 3:134 And We have not created the heavens and earth and that between them except in truth. And indeed, the Hour is coming; so forgive with gracious forgiveness. Qur'an 15:85 But indeed if any show patience and forgive, that would truly be an exercise of courageous will and resolution in the conduct of affairs. Qur'an 42:43 A hadith saying of Islam attributed to the Prophet says, "Be merciful to others and you will receive mercy. Forgive others and Allah will forgive you." Source: Musnad Ahmad 7001, Grade: Sahih Forgiveness in Islam is better than punishment.
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Nov 17, 2015 01:57
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Commie NedFlanders posted:If God is absolutely transcendent, how do we silly sinful humans come to relate to Him, know Him, or love Him? An overly-simple but somewhat accurate analogy would be: That feeling when you're working on something really hard and you finally get a tiny piece of it, the "aha!" moment. Then it's hard again till you get the next one. So the answer is generally that we do not, fully, have the ability to relate to, know and love Allah in the physical world we inhabit. We get bits and pieces, and certain groups are really focused on easing the door separating knowledge and comprehension and love of Him and our soul open for longer periods of time, but fully Getting It won't happen until we die. Commie NedFlanders posted:Not looking at the idea of original sin, but only intentional sin, that still covers just about all of humanity. The Old Testament descriptions of God are frightening and show his absolute Justice. How can someone who has sinned against God not completely hate themselves? Commie NedFlanders posted:Do Muslims consider their views on God to be held by faith, different types of knowledge, or both? BattyKiara posted:Do muslims pray for or on behalf of others? "Dear Alah, please keep my son safe" or "Please God, help my friend find faith in you" or "God, comfort those who grieve after the earthquake" etc? And there is almost... I don't want to say an obligation to forgive because that implies something heavy, but the idea that forgiveness is much more noble than punishment. If someone comes sincerely asking forgiveness for having wronged you, the reaction most loved by Allah is to forgive them and mean it. There's a big emphasis on a sense of brotherhood/sisterhood/whateverhood and to not forgive someone when they've truly repented and know how horrible what they did was, how it affected you, etc, is basically going against that idea, in a way.
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Nov 17, 2015 03:56
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tendai (or any other muslim women here), in my religion women cover their heads when they go to church. i've seen a lot of muslim women who look loving fine, but when i wear a headscarf it looks like hot rear end. how do i make my veil look better thx
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Nov 17, 2015 12:20
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HEY GAL posted:tendai (or any other muslim women here), in my religion women cover their heads when they go to church.  Hoodie + undercap = lazy bitch winter hijab, essentially. Also I got 4 hours of sleep before I took that due to poor choices with regard to "how late am I good to stay up playing Fallout 4?" so, you know, sorry. But okay seriously when I actually want to do it properly like I'm going to a mosque or dealing with someone more conservative I tend to do it like #6 on this list, albeit without the giant pin. The main thing that I think a lot of people don't realize is there is the undercap that basically is the hidden thing keeping your hair from loving everything up. In my case I use a bandeau/hair tube like these, only in black and not with RAD DESIGNS, my hair is butt-length and needs something fairly sturdy to hold it all up since I hate pinning it. But yeah that is really the Big Secret Muslim Bitches Don't Want You To Know, except it's not really a secret.
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Nov 17, 2015 15:25
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what up bad veil crew
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Nov 17, 2015 16:58
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I just got mad on Facebook and thought it might be something people are interested in here, my thoughts on the whole "BAN SHARIA LAWWWW!" wailing. I stole parts of it from an earlier write-up in this thread:"Tendai Gets Mad On The Internet, Take [s posted:1[/s]
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Nov 17, 2015 22:06
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remember when we determined that turkey is full of cats? http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2015/11/16/new-video-from-g20-summit-proves-that-cats-really-do-run-the-world/
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Nov 18, 2015 02:10
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Cats do indeed give not the slightest gently caress about economics.
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Nov 18, 2015 14:40
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Why are westerners who haven't grown up in Islamic countries so critical of Ayaan Hirsi Ali? Like when she was a guest on the Daily Show, Jon Stewart would hardly let her talk, speaking over her whenever she tried describing her experiences, basically denying her the expression of them. Do you think she makes any good points, and why do you think "liberal" western media is so opposed to her?
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Nov 21, 2015 15:12
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ashgromnies posted:Why are westerners who haven't grown up in Islamic countries so critical of Ayaan Hirsi Ali? Like when she was a guest on the Daily Show, Jon Stewart would hardly let her talk, speaking over her whenever she tried describing her experiences, basically denying her the expression of them. Not everything she says is wrong, some parts of islamic societies in the middle east and africa are backwards as hell, awareness and rejection of these practices is possible and does happen, from within mostly though. She generalizes alot and doesn't really make any distinctions between muslims, just that Islam is bad and should be destroyed. Its all about presentation here and I mean to draw a parallel, since i'm not a westerner, but a middle eastern muslim, critique of Islam is not unheard of but its generally ignored in favor of takfiri sectarianism and how [insert sect, or even other sunni groups of people] are utterly wrong and should be destroyed, you'll understand why people are weary at this sort of language, and i don't really blame the "liberal" media at ignoring it.
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Nov 22, 2015 00:42
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She is a complex, complex figure. Her idea that Islam, as a whole, is a thing to be defeated is abhorrent to me on any level because it uses such a broad brush to paint what, 1.2 billion people? Things like this undermine the moderate/progressive movement within Islam by associating it in the minds of less-moderate Muslims with people who just straight-up want to destroy Islam as a thing: quote:Once it’s defeated, it can mutate into something peaceful. It’s very difficult to even talk about peace now. They’re not interested in peace...There comes a moment when you crush your enemy." quote:“There are Muslims who are passive, who don’t all follow the rules of Islam, but there’s really only one Islam, defined as submission to the will of God. There’s nothing moderate about it.” The idea of Islam (or any religion or ideology) being a black/white, fundamentalist hardline or "you're not a real Muslim" sort of thing, is kind of offensive to me. I have the same problem with that, that I have with idiots on the right-wing edge of thing in the US who basically through their words make things harder and harder for people trying to quietly promulgate a more moderate view. Hyperbole is something I find kind of distasteful. In short, she calls for the equivalent of an Islamic Martin Luther but uses rhetoric that helps discourage people who might speak up from doing so, because it makes the atmosphere poisonous for them both inside the Muslim community and outside of it. All of that being said: I understand where she's coming from, inasmuch as I can understand it as an American convert who never dealt with FGM or other common issues in non-American Muslim cultures. I can't really say how I would react if I had gone through that same situation, because I had the luxury of being born in the US and converting.
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Nov 22, 2015 08:04
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She claims to have been abused by her father in the name of Islam. I think this explains a lot of her vitriol. Her status in Dutch palaiment gives her a platform for her ideas where she wouldnt ordinaily have one. Crituque of Islam is important imo, but she is an extremist in reverse. There is little constructive criticism that comes out of her mouth, just destroy Islam. Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Nov 23, 2015 |
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Nov 23, 2015 00:13
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Amun Khonsu posted:She claims to have been abused by her father in the name of Islam. I think this explains a lot of her vitriol. I think the problem is that, like many extremists on the other side, she sees her conception of Islam as the only correct conception of Islam, and that's a problem I had myself for a long time. Following from that premise, "Islam" does indeed need to be destroyed, and moderates can be ignored because they aren't really practicing Islam. Of course, the flaw in the argument is viewing Islam and Muslims as a monolithic entity that can only be practised in that sort of extreme way.
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Nov 23, 2015 01:05
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ashgromnies posted:Why are westerners who haven't grown up in Islamic countries so critical of Ayaan Hirsi Ali? Like when she was a guest on the Daily Show, Jon Stewart would hardly let her talk, speaking over her whenever she tried describing her experiences, basically denying her the expression of them. She's an extremely conservative person, so non-conservative westerners are probably gonna be pretty critical of her social and political views. Plus her tendency to stereotype or over-generalize, her support of hilariously disastrous military actions, lack of evidence reasoning and citation in her writings, etc. Like just because I've had some bad experiences in Chinatown, doesn't mean I can say there is something fundamentally wrong with Chinese people and their culture needs to be completely changed if they want to be citizens.
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Nov 23, 2015 21:52
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Tendai posted:I just got mad on Facebook and thought it might be something people are interested in here, my thoughts on the whole "BAN SHARIA LAWWWW!" wailing. I stole parts of it from an earlier write-up in this thread: I'm not trying to needle you or anything, hope it doesn't come off like that.
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Nov 24, 2015 04:18
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Haledjian posted:One thing I'm interested in--you say the Qur'an doesn't suggest imposing sharia. How do you see passages wherein Mohammed, eg, requires Jews to pay an (arguably exorbitant) tax if they don't convert to Islam? I understand non-Abrahamic faiths didn't have the tax option and were required to convert but I'm less familiar with that. Obviously most people don't believe that type of thing should be practiced today, but if the central figure of Islam imposes Islam via force or coercion, what is the moderate reading of that type of thing? Im not sure which verses that you are referring to in order to speak to them directly. However, any non-Muslim that lives in a Muslim controlled land is part of the Islamic State (Ummah). As such it is their right to be protected by Muslims on a civil level and military level. In addition, Muslims are supposed to maintain their houses of worship and community centres etc. All of this cost money. Non-Muslims do not have mandatory military service like Muslims do. The Jaziyyah is levied in order to pay for those services.
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Nov 24, 2015 04:41
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Amun Khonsu posted:Im not sure which verses that you are referring to in order to speak to them directly. However, any non-Muslim that lives in a Muslim controlled land is part of the Islamic State (Ummah). As such it is their right to be protected by Muslims on a civil level and military level. In addition, Muslims are supposed to maintain their houses of worship and community centres etc. All of this cost money. Non-Muslims do not have mandatory military service like Muslims do. The Jaziyyah is levied in order to pay for those services.
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Nov 24, 2015 04:53
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Born Muslim popping in, haven't read most of the thread other than the OP and the last page. In terms of my own faith I'm not overly religious now but of my 3 siblings I'm easily the one with the most faith. I drink alcohol pretty regularly though rarely get drunk and never go on benders. I've had girlfriends and (  ) have had sex many, many times with several different women who didn't mind touching my filthy terrist penis.  My parents pray regularly (now... My dad only started after Hajj a few years ago), I do not... I pretty much only pray if I remember to on holidays, it's Ramadan and I'm actually fasting (becoming more hit or miss the further into my professional life I get, for more info see The Goon Doctor), someone has died, or I'm about to take an exam. Despite all this, I consider myself to be a pretty good Muslim and don't doubt that God probably will, too. I may not be the best there is, but what kind of goon would I be if I wasn't a chronic underachiever in all aspects of my life.  With regards to major vs minor sins, there's actually a pretty good Hadith I like to relate to people when they ask about what Allah is like, according to Islam: A mass murderer (or something of the sort, let's call him a Bad, Bad Man) is old and full of regret, but it's at a loss for what to do about it. He happens to overhear a sermon by the Prophet and is inspired and moved, so he approaches the Prophet afterward and asks him what he can do to be forgiven for his terrible crimes and be forgiven. The Prophet basically is like, "uhhh, I dunno man, you're pretty loving terrible, come back next week and maybe I'll have an answer?" So the guy (who also converted and tried to do his best to be a good Muslim, although who knows maybe he was just so used to stomping on a baby with cleats before breakfast that it took him a bit to change his routine) waits a week, comes back, chills in the back with all the cool kids listening to the sermon in disguise (he was a Known rear end in a top hat and didn't want his presence to distract, you know, like Ben Carson showing up to a Grade School Geography Bee so he can bone up in preparation for future questions about foreign policy) and again approaches the Prophet and asks what he should do. Prophet still doesn't know what the gently caress and gives him the runaround (OR SO YOU ARE MEANT TO BELIEVE... SUSPENSE!). So another week passes and Dickhead again does the routine for a third time, hoping the Prophet might have an answer for him, and this time the Prophet pulls a loving Dumbledore and is like, "you passed the test! I had to be certain you were sincere in your belief and intent. Honestly, you're hosed around here, buddy, everyone knows you're Captain Baby Stomper and it'll be really hard for you to turn over a new leaf because the story is unclear or maybe Fuzz is just fuzzy ( ) on the details and you were actually a wanted criminal, but who gives a poo poo it's irrelevant to the point of the story. You should get the gently caress out of here and go somewhere else and change your name and start over and stomp on fewer babies... ideally no babies."So the guy follows the Prophet's advice to basically go into Muslim Witness Protection and gives away all of his material belongings he wouldn't need for the trip as Zakat (specific form of God approved charity) and starts trekking across the desert. Several days into this journey, he drops dead because he was old and Saudi Arabia is a lovely desert. So the two angels that come to take you come down, one for good people, one for bad. I forget their names and honestly who gives a poo poo, it's not important. They get into a fight because the Sinner Angel (you know what I mean, he's not a bad dude with wings, his passengers are just all pieces of poo poo) is like, "hello, this dude stomped on babies as part of his morning constitutional, why are we even having this conversation what the gently caress," but the Nice Bro Angel is like, "Yeah but he asked Allah for forgiveness and really was trying to change, that should count for something stop being such a hater." So they literally argue for a whole day while buzzards and poo poo are undoubtedly feasting on Dickhead al-McGee's bloated corpse, and at the end of the day they still can't decide so they're like, "gently caress this, let's ask the boss," so they go back to heaven and ask Allah what they should do. Allah was probably smoking a bowl at the time (gently caress you that's not blasphemy, I don't he gives a poo poo) and offered up the most stoner solution in the history of ever: measure the distances from the guy's body to his point of origin (presumably Medina or Mecca, for those of you that pay attention) and the distance to his destination (let's call it Gullibleville, since apparently they weren't going to realize Admiral Baby Stomper was in their midst), whichever city he was closer to will decide which angel gets to take him. I'm not going to explain which city represents which because gently caress you, this is basic logic and I'm phone posting. (gonna assume there are types because SwiftKey is an rear end in a top hat) Here's the catch: while Allah is explaining this and before the angels can come back and bust out the Holy Tape Measure, Allah picks up the guy's corpse and moves it closer to his destination, so ultimately the Good Angel gets to take him. Now I will preface my commentary on this slightly paraphrased (only slightly, I swear ) story to say that generally I'm of the, "ignore most Hadith" school of thought because ultimately who knows if they're legit and who really cares... God gave us an instruction manual (the Quran) and told us to follow that, what the Prophet did or did not do is completely irrelevant because he was just a man and was (self admittedly) fallible, and ultimately the only person responsible for your own soul is you, and saying, "well I did it slightly differently because he did it that way," is a stupid excuse that Allah will probably not be impressed by since, as said, he literally gave you a codified instruction manual to follow. That said, I always like this story because it demonstrates how important (good) intention is and just how beneficent and merciful God really is (which is the major patch note of Monotheism 3.0, aka Islam) all in one go. In Islam, the only unforgivable sin is not believing in God. Everything else can and will eventually be forgiven, even if you go to Hell. Believer in Hell? Eventually you'll get out once you've served your time. Another interesting thing is that, not unlike the US Justice System, you can only be punished for something you did once, assuming the punishment fit the crime. Interesting aside, both Thomas Jefferson and James Madison were known to both own and have read the Quran, and a lot of American history scholars believe that (among other things) is very possible that rule about not being tried for the same crime twice came directly from the Quran. But anyway, this also explains why traditional Muslim punishments are horribly brutal... they're totally just trying to give you leg (not a hand ) up on the Day of Judgment, they swear! But yeah, hope that was equal parts enlightening and entertaining to some of you. I've got other fun stories and such, if anyone has any specific questions. Just address them to me by name in your part so the Awful app highlights it. And if some of you Muslim goons are gonna be all judgy towards me, go worry about your own situation because I don't give a poo poo about your opinion. The Quran specifically states that ultimately Allah will judge us, so your opinion doesn't mean poo poo and I can practice my own Islam the way I see fit to, as long as I'm not totally paint to others to do the same, which I am not, at all. You have to decide for yourself how to practice your religion, no one can do it for you. Edit: Haledjian posted:One thing I'm interested in--you say the Qur'an doesn't suggest imposing sharia. How do you see passages wherein Mohammed, eg, requires Jews to pay an (arguably exorbitant) tax if they don't convert to Islam? I understand non-Abrahamic faiths didn't have the tax option and were required to convert but I'm less familiar with that. Obviously most people don't believe that type of thing should be practiced today, but if the central figure of Islam imposes Islam via force or coercion, what is the moderate reading of that type of thing? I'll play devil's advocate and point out that many European nations, including Denmark and Switzerland, still have a Church Tax and you can't actually opt out of them. That is basically the exact same thing as what you're asking about. Just saying. Fuzz fucked around with this message at 09:54 on Nov 24, 2015 |
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Nov 24, 2015 09:33
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Haledjian posted:Specifically what I'm aware of is various Jewish tribes in the Arabian peninsula who were conquered and then required to pay tribute, which seems less than benevolent haha. If they were "conquered" and remained under the protection of the state, then yes, they would have to pay for services and be granted the rights given them. Conquest is not particular to Islam in those days. Christians, Jews and Pagans conquered lands and imposed laws.
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Nov 24, 2015 10:12
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Fuzz posted:
lmao
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Nov 24, 2015 10:21
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Amun Khonsu posted:If they were "conquered" and remained under the protection of the state, then yes, they would have to pay for services and be granted the rights given them. Conquest is not particular to Islam in those days. Christians, Jews and Pagans conquered lands and imposed laws. The point being made (and what would distinguish it from the church tax) is it was specifically levied on non-Muslims. At the time this was basically a way of funding the army as soldiers were composed of Arab tribesmen who were largely in it for booty and plunder (I'm sure some were genuinely devout but... Come on, that was basically what all nomadic warrior peoples were into). So it could be seen as coercive means of conversion, basically if you're not Muslim hers a great whopping tax to pay. On the other hand that wasn't the intent and in fact was a problem for later rulers as people began converting in large numbers and their tax base crumbled. I'd say that aspect of Islam is very much a legacy of its early nature as an imperial religion based in conquest. I should say that's a pretty secular reading of why it's there, obviously there could be some underlying divine motivation but I don't think it was ever intended to spur people into converting.
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Nov 24, 2015 11:04
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MrNemo posted:The point being made (and what would distinguish it from the church tax) is it was specifically levied on non-Muslims. At the time this was basically a way of funding the army as soldiers were composed of Arab tribesmen who were largely in it for booty and plunder (I'm sure some were genuinely devout but... Come on, that was basically what all nomadic warrior peoples were into). So it could be seen as coercive means of conversion, basically if you're not Muslim hers a great whopping tax to pay. On the other hand that wasn't the intent and in fact was a problem for later rulers as people began converting in large numbers and their tax base crumbled. Understand. One can take that view, but the tax was not hefty. It was twice the rate (5%-10% varied based on circumstance) of the Zakat tax levied on Muslims which is 2.5%. Im sure that more corrupt Caliphs took advantage of that as they distorted many Islamic practices as time went on. Frankly I feel coerced to renounce my US citizenship since i'm forced to pay the godamned US taxes even though I haven't lived in the US for over 10 years. I dont even have a US drivers license anymore heh. Think the last US tax percentage I paid in income tax was 17% (as a non-resident), far greater than the Jaziya tax Muslims levied on non-Muslims who actually lived in an Islamic state. Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 11:38 on Nov 24, 2015 |
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Nov 24, 2015 11:17
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I didn't say it was unduly burdensome, my point was that it wasn't coercive because it wasn't intended to get people to convert. Early Islamic taxation was a means of funding the Arab armies that came in and conquered the territory. They were separated from the populations that were there, which preserved their Arab and religious nature, and so needed some means of passing and maintaining. Levying additional taxes on the existing populations made sense and the religious distinction was an easy way to make that differentiation between the armies and the existing population. Now whether it's coercive in fact is a different question that depends more on the state of the laws in terms of additional responsibilities for Muslims within the Umma. If there were a way to live in the US without citizenship by passing higher taxes and an easy path to citizenship then I think you'd have a better comparison in the US tax analogy. Would that be coercive in terms of getting people living in the US to become citizens?
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Nov 24, 2015 12:17
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MrNemo posted:I didn't say it was unduly burdensome, my point was that it wasn't coercive because it wasn't intended to get people to convert. Early Islamic taxation was a means of funding the Arab armies that came in and conquered the territory. They were separated from the populations that were there, which preserved their Arab and religious nature, and so needed some means of passing and maintaining. Levying additional taxes on the existing populations made sense and the religious distinction was an easy way to make that differentiation between the armies and the existing population. My analogy speaks to my paying 17% tax and not living in the country, contrast to the 5-10% of those non-Muslims who actually live in their country. I think if we are to argue over how much we are forced to pay for whatever reason, Id say that the jaziya is a better deal than I have today, certainly financially. People often want to argue how unfair it was having to pay jaziya, but frankly, its really a non-issue unless we want to make an issue out of the times corrupt Calipahtes jacked up the tax unfairly. In that case, its still a non-issue because it was unislamic. Rewind back to the time when this jaziya was being levied in ancient times, contrast that to Europe which was going into the Dark Ages and people were forced outright to convert, and pay church tax (tithes) of 10%, to Christianity or be killed or exiled and it really pales in comparison. So, what Im saying is that people shouldnt make the jaziya an issue. It was commonplace in those days in most of the world that when one conquered a land, new laws were in effect and in at least 2 of the main religions we have today, people were required to pay a religious tax. The only difference is that Muslims generally didnt force covert people (not saying that some have not contravene the laws of Islam and done it at times) the way it was done in Europe with the Christians. Instead Islamic law gave them an option to lower the tax if they converted as one of many benefits of the state. It was more of an incentive (benefit) rather than coercion that reduced taxation by half. Not much at all and in most cases was not responsible for huge numbers of converts to the faith. Jaziya wasnt a method of coercion. Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 13:10 on Nov 24, 2015 |
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Nov 24, 2015 12:54
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This one may be more a cultural thing than an Islamic thing, but why would "Blue eyed and lefthanded!" be used as an insult against someone? As in "Stop acting like you are blue eyed and lefthanded!" And what's with the blue eye amulets hanging here and there? Do they have a special meaning?
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Nov 24, 2015 13:57
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Amun Khonsu posted:She claims to have been abused by her father in the name of Islam. I think this explains a lot of her vitriol. Is that her position, though? The stuff I've seen from her has been calling for more moderates and a "reformation" of Islam to clearly say that Quranic literalism is unacceptable in the modern era.
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Nov 24, 2015 15:33
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BattyKiara posted:This one may be more a cultural thing than an Islamic thing, but why would "Blue eyed and lefthanded!" be used as an insult against someone? As in "Stop acting like you are blue eyed and lefthanded!" And what's with the blue eye amulets hanging here and there? Do they have a special meaning? Purely cultural, has nothing to do with Islam. The Evil eyes supposedly ward off evil of something like that.
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Nov 24, 2015 16:09
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Tendai posted:
"There's too much sectarianism, and religious fundamentalism, and uncritical reading of ancient texts outside their historical context, and immoderate language, and anti-semitism in Islam today. Do you know who would sort this out? Martin Luther!"
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Nov 24, 2015 16:32
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