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Fried Watermelon posted:What do you guys think of the Zeitgeist film series? I enjoy the poo poo out of conspiracy movies. Zeitgeist is my guilty pleasure. The claims are all easily disprovable or just ridiculous like the Sun --> Son linking of Christianity to son gods, but still fun.
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Nov 23, 2015 05:25
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Mr. Funny Pants posted:I'm too lazy to look it up, but within the last few years I read an article saying that the proper translation for whatever equaled "carpenter" was more like "handyman". Whatever the word was, it denoted someone who did a variety of tasks. No idea how correct that was... A modern carpenter also does some other related things too though. Few stick to pure carpentry and Jesus wouldn't have either.
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Nov 23, 2015 05:28
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Now I imagine Jesus being a contracter in the past. "so you want to expand your mule pen? Well, i'll need to order the materials, that will take at least a week, and then I gotta make sure my brothers are free, which they probably aren't. Oh and I'm going to need payment up front, 300 denrii, no sheckles." Seriously, Jesus being an actual person is not really something that is really up to debate. Its perfect plausible that he existed in some form, and for some reason unlike the other preachers at the time, his message became popular and people decided to follow him and his story was embellished beyond normality. There are lots of biblical events that are completely made up. And not talking about things like the sun stopping and other supernatural and magical events, but the Exodus. There is zero evidence for it, the Jews were never ever captives in Egypt, and they sure as hell weren't slaves that build the monuments. "Oh!" you say, "but didn't the Egyptians erase history that made them look bad?" they tried, but weren't completely successful. It would be really hard to erase every single scrap of evidence of the Israelite captivity. We know all about the brief period where Egypt abandoned its traditional system of worship to having Amun, the disk of the sun, being the sole diety of Egypt. After that Dynasty fell, the Egyptians made every effort to obliterate that periods existence, including tearing down their capital and everything. Though they failed to erase everything, so we ended up learning pretty much everything about it.
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Nov 23, 2015 05:32
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One thing I'll point out is that tons of those preachers had followings too, many that lasted as much as hundreds of years. It's just only Christianity managed to grow to multiple billions of adherents and gain domination over first the Roman Empire, then Europe at large, and in recent centuries most of the world. There's some speculation that many of those alternate preachers ended up having their followers join in with the Christians as time went on. And those preachers getting retconned as being Christian preachers, sometimes even saints.
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Nov 23, 2015 05:40
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fishmech posted:One thing I'll point out is that tons of those preachers had followings too, many that lasted as much as hundreds of years. It's just only Christianity managed to grow to multiple billions of adherents and gain domination over first the Roman Empire, then Europe at large, and in recent centuries most of the world. This is interesting stuff from my point of view (studying it as history). Are there any particularly good books on the topic?
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Nov 23, 2015 05:59
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Prism posted:This is interesting stuff from my point of view (studying it as history). Are there any particularly good books on the topic? It's just something that came up in a religious history class I took nigh on 8 years ago in college. Don't remember the books we used, but it came up during a portion on why Jesus was almost certainly historical (and why that doesn't make Christianity either more or less valid). Wouldn't know the best place to look up the other movements of the time, and the Saints thing is just a hypothesis that had been recently come up with, since apparently many "christian" saints sounded to historians like they might have had no relation to Christianity.
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Nov 23, 2015 06:09
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twistedmentat posted:Now I imagine Jesus being a contracter in the past. The Egyptians also had a real love of attempting, and failing, to erase entire eras of their history. There is evidence of later rulers deciding that previous rulers were shits and trying to erase them only to end up doing a rather poor job of it. I figure it has something to do with their love of hiding poo poo all over the desert. "Hey guys let's all erase that last pharaoh from existence." "You guys remember where he built that one library? And his tomb? And...I think he built a city over by that one oasis that dried up ten years ago. I don't know about you guys but I'm not walking four days into the desert to see if that poo poo is still there. Let's just smash this temple a few blocks over and call it a day. River's about to flood and I want to grow some onions." In the case of Jesus that area of the world was occupied by Rome at the time and they were pretty good at keeping records. If memory serves there are actual pieces of historical evidence that Jesus did in fact exist. There are also chunks of the Old Testament being found still as well as pretty irrefutable evidence that the more mundane parts of the Bible have some truth. It's also been shown that Moses not only existed but was tripping balls when he said God talked to him, which is another theory that pisses people off but conspiracy nuts have a field day with; apparently psychedelics were...rather popular among crazy prophets. For all of human history. Everywhere.
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Nov 23, 2015 09:24
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ToxicSlurpee posted:The Egyptians also had a real love of attempting, and failing, to erase entire eras of their history. There is evidence of later rulers deciding that previous rulers were shits and trying to erase them only to end up doing a rather poor job of it. I figure it has something to do with their love of hiding poo poo all over the desert. I'm not sure if that last sentence was a joke or not, but if not do you have a source? I thought there was no evidence of a historical Moses.
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Nov 23, 2015 10:44
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There's a lot of interesting anomalies about Jesus the historical figure as opposed to Jesus the religious figure. The carpenter thing is a much later addition to the canon. The word used to describe Joseph in earlier texts is usually translated as 'rabbi' or 'teacher'. Nazareth is also a point of confusion. As noted above, he is often referred to as Jesus of Nazareth despite the fact that he wasn't born there. However. there was at the time a Judean insurgent group called the Nazarenes who were pretty much down on the whole 'kick the Romans out of Judea' gig. The account of the trial and crucifixion also doesn't mesh with what we know (which is a lot) about contemporary Roman justice in the provinces. For a start, the Pharisees absolutely had authority over charges of heresy and blasphemy. They didn't need to get the Romans involved. The Romans equally weren't interested in enforcing Jewish religious rules, they only cared about public order. Crucifixion at that time wasn't a common punishment, it wasn't used for religious executions (those were mostly stonings) or for common criminals (who were usually beheaded or sent to the Circus), it was used for enemies of the state and traitors - Spartacus was crucified for example. It's interesting to note that Jesus the
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Nov 23, 2015 11:42
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ToxicSlurpee posted:The Egyptians also had a real love of attempting, and failing, to erase entire eras of their history. There is evidence of later rulers deciding that previous rulers were shits and trying to erase them only to end up doing a rather poor job of it. I figure it has something to do with their love of hiding poo poo all over the desert. There's also the other side of things, which is that we know what things were actually like, and that for all the difficulty of removing history, making a new consistent one out of whole cloth is vastly harder and doesn't seem to be a thing people actually tried.
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Nov 23, 2015 18:57
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Megasabin posted:I'm not sure if that last sentence was a joke or not, but if not do you have a source? I thought there was no evidence of a historical Moses. Partly a joke and partly written terribly because I'm a dumbass and post when I'm very, very tired sometimes. I forget where I read it but I saw some interesting arguments that Moses existed and the area that he existed in had psychedelic mushrooms growing around some particular mountains. They were known to give people "profound religious feelings" which also could explain why Moses thought a bush that caught fire was talking to him and was actually the voice of God. I read in general that this is part of why (that and how much time fucks things up when you give it a thousand years to do so) religious stories tend to read like acid trips. The thing I read was not direct evidence that Moses went up a mountain and came down with tablets like the story told but rather that there were a poo poo load of people acting like Moses at the time. Some of the Biblical stories have a real basis to it but the other snag that gets run into is that the Jewish faith even admits that a lot of the Torah (which is where the Old Testament comes from) is literally made up. Most of it is meant to be stories you're supposed to learn things from rather than an actual record of what happened. Which is, of course, why Biblical literalism is dumb but also "this story is literally impossible ergo all of Christianity is a big dumb conspiracy" is also dumb. This is especially true when you look at the actual teachings of Jesus. He made poo poo up all the time. The stories he told weren't about reality but more about "here let me tell you a story that will teach you an important component of not being a jerk." It gets problematic because so much apocrypha has been melded into the Bible and it all went down so drat long ago it's almost impossible to completely tell what actually happened and what didn't.
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Nov 23, 2015 20:26
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Helen Highwater posted:The account of the trial and crucifixion also doesn't mesh with what we know (which is a lot) about contemporary Roman justice in the provinces. For a start, the Pharisees absolutely had authority over charges of heresy and blasphemy. They didn't need to get the Romans involved. The Romans equally weren't interested in enforcing Jewish religious rules, they only cared about public order. Crucifixion at that time wasn't a common punishment, it wasn't used for religious executions (those were mostly stonings) or for common criminals (who were usually beheaded or sent to the Circus), it was used for enemies of the state and traitors - Spartacus was crucified for example. It's interesting to note that Jesus the Well, the Romans did crucify a whole lot of errant preachers around Judea in that time, mostly because so many of them were basically preaching this Jewish eschatology about how the messiah was either them or he was coming back and he was going to kick the poo poo out of these occupying Romans who we really, really hate. They were basically a byproduct of the general pissed-off revolutionary spirit in an occupied state. I'm trying to find sources, but I remember my professor of early Christian history talking about how there was this guy referred to as The Egyptian who raised up a congregation/army of several thousand in the span of a few months of preaching and marched into Jerusalem only to get crucified pretty much on the spot. While searching for references to The Egyptian, I did find the best evidence of a historical Jesus, which is a passing mention by Josephus in his Antiquities 18: Chapter 3. Josephus was basically the best historian of the area at the time, and covered a lot of poo poo. Unfortunately, a few hundred years later a priest found one of the copies of his work and proceeded to add some extra stuff to his passing reference to Jesus and make it sound like Josephus realized Jesus was Christ, so now a lot of historical-Jesus deniers try to claim that the entire thing was forged and Josephus didn't reference Jesus at all (this despite the fact that at least 2 other copies of the same text by Josephus, without the priest's additions, have been found and they do contain the basic reference).
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Nov 23, 2015 21:48
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ToxicSlurpee posted:I forget where I read it but I saw some interesting arguments that Moses existed and the area that he existed in had psychedelic mushrooms growing around some particular mountains. They were known to give people "profound religious feelings" which also could explain why Moses thought a bush that caught fire was talking to him and was actually the voice of God. I read in general that this is part of why (that and how much time fucks things up when you give it a thousand years to do so) religious stories tend to read like acid trips. I've seen it suggested that a lot of the wilder poo poo in the Revelation to St John is because Patmos (where he wrote it) has plenty of fly agaric mushrooms.
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Nov 23, 2015 23:15
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e_angst posted:Well, the Romans did crucify a whole lot of errant preachers around Judea in that time, mostly because so many of them were basically preaching this Jewish eschatology about how the messiah was either them or he was coming back and he was going to kick the poo poo out of these occupying Romans who we really, really hate. They were basically a byproduct of the general pissed-off revolutionary spirit in an occupied state. I'm trying to find sources, but I remember my professor of early Christian history talking about how there was this guy referred to as The Egyptian who raised up a congregation/army of several thousand in the span of a few months of preaching and marched into Jerusalem only to get crucified pretty much on the spot. There's also a bit in Josephus' work that talks about Jesus' brother James IIRC, but that isn't usually stressed by Christians on account of the "Jesus had a brother" thing.
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Nov 23, 2015 23:37
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There's a lot of weird stuff in the bible that has absolutely no reason to be in there. There's a rather throwaway line of how Jesus is a "glutton and a wine-bibber, a friend of publicans and sinners" Seeing as how there's literally nothing to gain from including that, and actually paints Jesus in a fairly negative light, it suggests that there was a guy named Jesus and this way probably a very early attempt at damage control.
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Nov 24, 2015 02:37
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Jesus was real. He came back in the late 20th century and started a web-coding UFO suicide cult.
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Nov 24, 2015 02:41
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McDowell posted:Jesus was real. He came back in the late 20th century and started a web-coding UFO suicide cult. He also led a hippy commune cult based off of the Beatles, an apocalyptic Japanese Armageddon cult, a communist church-turned-suicide-cult which moved to Guyana, and a gun nut cult in (you guessed it) Texas. And probably some other things I'm not remembering right now.
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Nov 24, 2015 04:25
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Carsius posted:He also led a hippy commune cult based off of the Beatles, an apocalyptic Japanese Armageddon cult, a communist church-turned-suicide-cult which moved to Guyana, and a gun nut cult in (you guessed it) Texas. And probably some other things I'm not remembering right now. Those were false prophets - unless you believe in them.
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Nov 24, 2015 05:16
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e_angst posted:Josephus ARE YA READY FOR SOME SAVIORRRRR / THE EASTER MORNIN PARTAAAY
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Nov 24, 2015 06:02
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One of my teachers in High School made a comment that always stuck with me "there's a reason that religions often come from places where people are out in the sun a lot". The thing that always gets me about the Dawkin's Athiest crowd is they always want to just straight up ban religions and shovel their believers into ovens. Yea, religions cause a lot of problems, but lovely people are going to do lovely things no matter what. Also, lots of people gain comfort and meaning in their lives though faith, and that's just fine. The problems crop up when you want to impose your ideas of faith on everyone else either through force or though law. It's dumb as poo poo to say both because the bible has stuff that's impossible, its all lies, and to say its all literally true, everything that happened happened. Athiest CTs do tend to think that the Bible was written by the secret masters to control people and religious violence is caused by THEY not wanting people to step out of their doctrine. Protestant CT's see the Catholic Church as the agent of these secret others. I was watching a video on youtube talking about weird human remains and they keep bringing up how Alien believers tend to see any weird bone as proof of Aliens or Alien-human hybrids. I was thinking "Whats the end game for that? Is it just Earth Women are so hot Aliens just need to come down and get in the bone zone with them?" I know that' what a lot of Ancient Alien believers think, because of course the Gods were always turning into Bulls and Golden Showers to get it on with mortal women and of course Gods are just Aliens so derp. Though you have more modern CT's who think the Government is creating human-alien hybrids and what's the point there? It can be done? okay sure. Because the Shadow Government wants a slave race for when they have exterminate regular people? Okay but history has shown you can just enslave people to do your work for you, you don't have to spend resources on creating hybrids. Anyways the whole depopulation thing is silly anyways because less people means labour gets more expensive as the labourpool shrinks and there's less competition for jobs. It's better to have an Elysium style situation with the elites in some protected space and the seething billions slaving away as cheaply as possible to produce the goods for the elite classes.
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Nov 24, 2015 07:06
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Protestant conspiracy theories are weird as gently caress. The main one I can think of is that Catholicism is actually a front for a pagan Sun Worship cult that actually still worships Ba'al. Pretty nutty stuff: http://www.granddesignexposed.com/sun/baal.html
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Nov 24, 2015 10:18
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twistedmentat posted:One of my teachers in High School made a comment that always stuck with me "there's a reason that religions often come from places where people are out in the sun a lot". The absence of false beliefs is a value in and of itself, which you can argue is greater than being soothed by imaginary gods. A strong civil society that isn't based on FYGM lolbertarianism along with its institutions would provide sufficiently secure livelihoods that starving poors won't need to pray the sad away, helped by a tradition of critical thinking that people are brought in so they don't reflexively search for the supernatural in anything they don't personally understand. Capital A Atheism primarily makes arguments about the belief systems of a future ideal society and not practical policy recommendations. The problem with the Dawkins Atheist CrowdTM is that whenever some Smart PeopleTM (who may or may not be wrong, but have at least thought about the topic) make an argument and produce a soundbite about imaginary sky wizards along the way, dumb reddit shitlers start running that poo poo into the ground because they treat it as a revelation from the mouth of the wise St Harris, a disciple of Prophet Dawkins(pbuh), rather than moderately funny snark produced by a bored intellectual. Inevitably, dumb goons then run that poo poo into the ground again by treating well-known bad islamophobic privileged horrible person Dick Dorkins' shitpoasting on twitter as the literal antireligious eradication programme of their deepest suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 10:43 on Nov 24, 2015 |
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Nov 24, 2015 10:38
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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I stumbled across a video I found really fascinating, one nutjob calls in to another nutjob's show and tries to convince him that the Earth is flat! Instead of pushing back right away, he spends about half an hour just asking questions and you get really far down into the rabbit hole. Turns out the poor guy really wants this to be true because then the Earth and especially him wouldn't be insignificant instead of just being one rock orbiting one out of a 100 billion stars in one out of a 100 billion galaxies. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsOz_J6tJVU
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Nov 24, 2015 11:22
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blowfish posted:The absence of false beliefs is a value in and of itself, which you can argue is greater than being soothed by imaginary gods. A strong civil society that isn't based on FYGM lolbertarianism along with its institutions would provide sufficiently secure livelihoods that starving poors won't need to pray the sad away, helped by a tradition of critical thinking that people are brought in so they don't reflexively search for the supernatural in anything they don't personally understand. Capital A Atheism primarily makes arguments about the belief systems of a future ideal society and not practical policy recommendations. The thing that makes this all the more complicated is that these behaviors are not unique to religion: it simply provides a vector through which people can express them. So rather than focusing on whether God is real or not, the target should solely be on critical thinking and education- once provided the necessary skills, the desired outcome would occur, regardless of whether religion was a primary focus. Carsius fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Nov 24, 2015 |
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Nov 24, 2015 14:08
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Carsius posted:The thing that makes this all the more complicated is that these behaviors are not unique to religion: it simply provides a vector through which people can express them. Unlike random superstitious people, religious organisations are, well, organised and therefore more effective at making people believe dumb things, or so the argument goes. But it's not like homeopaths, goonspiracy theorists, and other assorted magical thinkers don't get called out for being stupid anyway.
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Nov 24, 2015 15:07
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While it's true that religion is certainly not the cause of humans being dicks to each other, there are some specific and heinous forms of dickishness that are greatly magnified in both intensity and frequency by religious ideas and cultures. Adding to that that criticizing religion is a cultural taboo, to degrees ranging from being considered rude to deserving of immediate tortuous execution, almost everywhere, it is a very powerful focus and unassailable justification of much of human brutality. This also includes secular cults of personality focused around dictators even if they make no supernatural claims. Removing the effective restrictions on criticism of religion-as-source of dickishness would let said dickishness be meaningfully addressed and reduced by cultures who would otherwise not condone or suffer such behavior.
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Nov 24, 2015 17:00
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I'm watching an odd local conspiracy theory develop in real time in the South East of England. Bluewater shopping center in Kent is one of the biggest in Europe. A couple of days ago, following the lockdown in Brussels, some of my just asking questions friends started to share what they had heard through the grape vine: There was a planned attack on Bluewater due for this Friday. Now at the moment everyone is pretty tense here and jumping at any suggestion of terrorist activity, and perhaps there is the remotest possibility that such a place could be a viable target (indeed Bluewater was evacuated at the weekend over a suspicious package), but the reason that people have started pushing this as a narrative is beyond stupid. According to the CT's Bluewater has ordered in 750 body bags in preparation for the massive loss of life that will come on Friday. When I first heard this theory I laughed about it, up until I discovered people are jumping onto this idea and have been busy debating it in all sincerity on social media. It reached the point where the police received so many questions about the threat that they had to get a spokesman to say categorically on local radio that the reports were false and that the shopping center had not ordered in any body bags. This of course has caused the CT's to double down and say "Well of course that's what they would say." I don't know what it is about Bluewater that sends people down the crazy path. When it first opened I was a local resident and would often hear people who appeared to be perfectly reasonable people suggesting that there was something fiercely occultist about the design of the center, and after one ill judged article suggested that it was going to be a "church for consumerism" there were some tiny protests against the Satanic nature of the place. (These rumours were often fanned by local shop owners who felt threatened by the threat of the out of town shopping center.) I give it a day at most before someone ties the two theories together.
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Nov 24, 2015 17:04
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Trent posted:
I'm not implying that criticism should be held; I feel that the most effective strategy would not be to attack religion directly. This creates an "us versus them" mentality on both sides such that any further suggestions would be ignored. People need to come to their own decisions (with the correct toolset of critical thinking and education.) Carsius fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Nov 24, 2015 |
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Nov 24, 2015 20:12
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Teaching people critical thinking and giving them a mental bullshit detector would be greatly beneficial to society as a whole, but there's a whole segment of the population that relies on bullshit to maintain power and make money so it will never happen. I hated Dick Dawkins when I heard about the story of I think it got called Elevatorgate, where Dr Rebecca Watson was asked out by some guy in an elevator at TAM and it was super uncomfortable for her and Dawkins said basically "Hey some guy wanted to ask you out, you should feel good someone thought you were hot". Which is pretty much the most mansplainist way to excuse guys being creepy on women.
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Nov 24, 2015 23:28
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twistedmentat posted:I hated Dick Dawkins when I heard about the story of I think it got called Elevatorgate, where Dr Rebecca Watson was asked out by some guy in an elevator at TAM and it was super uncomfortable for her and Dawkins said basically "Hey some guy wanted to ask you out, you should feel good someone thought you were hot". Which is pretty much the most mansplainist way to excuse guys being creepy on women. quote:Dear Muslima, Dawkins is terrible.
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Nov 25, 2015 05:05
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blowfish posted:Unlike random superstitious people, religious organisations are, well, organised and therefore more effective at making people believe dumb things, or so the argument goes. But it's not like homeopaths, goonspiracy theorists, and other assorted magical thinkers don't get called out for being stupid anyway. Most religions aren't organized. Like, the non-Catholic parts of Christianity are about as well organized as the people who believe in organic produce. Ditto for Sunni Islam.
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Nov 25, 2015 05:45
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A lot of Native American religious stories and myths came about using psychedelics. Shaman of different cultures were usually the social outcast / mentally ill who were considered magical because of their weirdness and use of psychoactive drugs.
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Nov 25, 2015 07:00
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Skinty McEdger posted:According to the CT's Bluewater has ordered in 750 body bags in preparation for the massive loss of life that will come on Friday. What's the CTs' response to "If they have enough credible intelligence to know they're going to need 750 body bags on Friday, why don't they just close the mall that day?" That's not even bothering to consider that having quality intelligence on the location, time, and magnitude of an attack means you probably have enough to arrest those responsible before they carry it out. And, of course, a government visibly preventing a major terrorist attack provides a similar propaganda benefit to the ones that CTs believe are the reason governments allow them to happen, so there's really no benefit to not stopping it.
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Nov 25, 2015 07:59
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Threep posted:Dawkins is terrible. Dawkins was good when he was just an angry biologist pissing in the face of creationist nutjobs. The he got a twitter account and decided that islam was the evilest religion on earth and whelp.
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Nov 25, 2015 09:44
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Mr. Sunshine posted:Dawkins was good when he was just an angry biologist pissing in the face of creationist nutjobs. The he got a twitter account and decided that islam was the evilest religion on earth and whelp. and feminists, and anti-racists and so on. The mans basically a goon.
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Nov 25, 2015 15:07
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Threep posted:This was his actual post: Human loving garbage. No wonder the Fedora crowd loves him so much. So I've been watching some videos on youtube about weird stuff, like odd videos, pictures, websites and such, and then one gets all "BITCON WAS TAKING OVER BUT THE GOVERNMENTS STOPPED IT!" and i'm all  because suddenly the video went from being about odd websites that are probably sites for spies and stuff to suddenly pushing the dumbest internet thing that wasn't involving sex. Unregulated currency that is dominated by speculators? What can go wrong!?if you want to watch it, its here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIqDc31lk7k I also love how their other videos just take everything at face value. Pretty standard behavior for CTs. I also didn't realize that MIA/POW is actually a conspiracy theory until fairly recently. Not that i believed it, I figured that it was simply rpeople wanting to find the remains of their loved ones who died in Vietnam, and that the POW part was a remanent from the period just after the war before prisoners started being returned. Nope, comes from people who either refuse to either accept the office story that their loved one was killed, or that just no records of them appear outside of gone. Obviously during war there is chaos and things just get lost. Someone gets blown up so much their body vanishes, or end up being carried off by a river or their plane crashes into the ocean and a million other reasons no remains are found. Then movies like Missing in Action and Rambo part 2 put the idea in the general populations minds. Thing is, at the end of Vietnam war and after the prisoners had been returned, around 40 servicemen were listed as still MIA, since then through, the POW/MIA people keep adding names to it, and now the supposed numbers of POWs still in Vietnam numbers in the thousands. The only thing that has pointed to any of it being true is the Russians have said that there is possibly a few Vietnam and Korean war POWs were transferred to the Soviets, but they were most likely be CIA or special forces people who the Government would deny knowledge of. twistedmentat fucked around with this message at 05:30 on Nov 26, 2015 |
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Nov 26, 2015 05:09
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Skinty McEdger posted:I give it a day at most before someone ties the two theories together. That someone should absolutely be you. Are lots of British worried about Satanism? It would seem like the whole CoE thing would have more or less destroyed belief in the supernu.
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Nov 26, 2015 08:12
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hey guys. i heard a undergroun nuclear bomb brought down the twin towers. is this true??? tia. also i hear no one can explain what happened to wtc 7. what happened there.
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Nov 26, 2015 08:18
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ur mom happened
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Nov 26, 2015 08:35
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Vulture posted:also i hear no one can explain what happened to wtc 7. what happened there. obama lied people died
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Nov 26, 2015 10:25
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