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Soothing Vapors posted:I really enjoy how the last 10 pages or so are filled with people stating their dumb opinions as fact then getting utterly indignant if anyone disagrees Why I never! <  > As someone who has read comic books for decades, I
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Nov 24, 2015 17:00
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Soothing Vapors posted:I really enjoy how the last 10 pages or so are filled with people stating their dumb opinions as fact then getting utterly indignant if anyone disagrees This forum truly is (dramatic pause)...Something Awful
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Nov 24, 2015 17:01
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I was pretty disappointed with this. It was significantly worse than Daredevil. Ritter and her character were both excellent. It was generally well acted all around, and the dialogue was all fine. The big problem really came down to the plotting, and a lot those issues were due to the nature of Kilgrave's powers. Mind control is essentially a massive logical nightmare, and the writers were simply not up to the task of handling it. Over and over again, Jones manages to capture Kilgrave, only for him to be freed by some ridiculous contrivance just because they have to fill more episodes. Why couldn't Jessica beat those guards when she got Kilgrave in the van? She's got super strength, a few goons should be no trouble. Even worse, later on she's bizarrely bested by two amateur men and a small woman, and then Kilgrave gets away yet again, like he's Dr Claw. Jessica also has many many opportunities to take out Kilgrave that are ignored just to continue the story. When Kilgrave was bloviating in the police station, she could have slammed his mouth shut at any time, and then snapped his neck, ending the danger immediately and providing a station full of cops as witnesses to prove Hope's innocence. Didn't happen. She could have brought the sedative with her and just stabbed Kilgrave with the needle when she met him outside her house. Didn't bother. Instead she wasted an episode just hanging out with Kilgrave for no real story reason than a stupid attempt to reform him or something. After having spent so much time with a mind controller, she should have worked out what everyone in the audience realises, that the only way to deal with him would be to kill him. But the show takes something like 10 episodes to come to this obvious conclusion. Even considering Hope, the best solution would still be to kill him and then find some proof or loophole afterwards. A lot of these things are nitpicks, that would be forgivable if it was just one or two things, but there's just a mountain of them. It felt like every couple of minutes I'd be shouting at the screen because some character would fail to do something obvious. I feel like the writers were hamstrung because they had the mind control concept and the themes they wanted to talk about and they simply couldn't stretch it out long enough without resorting to such awful plots. There are other problems too: after Daredevil, I was psyched for some amazingly choreographed fights, instead they were largely terrible, a huge drop in quality. The Simpson character was almost entirely extraneous, and his heelturn in the last third of the season was bizarre, extremely contrived (this random cop just happened to be an experimental supersoldier?), and seemed to only happen so that Jessica could have a (disappointing) fight with another super. Compared to the magisterial Fisk, Kilgrave was completely 2-dimensional. "Childish, selfish sociopath" describes his entire character. That's it. The lesbian lawyer drama pretty much went nowhere. Drug addict/social worker guy was whiny and forgettable. Weirdo twin girl was a fun comic relief character until they unwisely took her to some really dark places that led to crazy tonal mismatch as she tries to come to terms with her murdered brother. There was essentially no reason why Jessica was immune to mind control other than plot convenience, and it was ridiculous that she couldn't work out she was immune when she was disobeying commands in her own flashback. I'm being pretty hard on this here, overall I'd say it wasn't awful, and I certainly don't regret watching it. Krysten Ritter really carries the whole series. But after Daredevil my standards were very high, and it fell quite far short of meeting them. I'm looking forward to S2 though, hopefully there will be more proper PIing in that one. Oh, and to ruin it for everyone else, once you notice how small Luke Cage's ears are you can't unsee them.
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Nov 24, 2015 17:03
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Comrade Fakename posted:Oh, and to ruin it for everyone else, once you notice how small Luke Cage's ears are you can't unsee them. I thought I was the only one that noticed this.
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Nov 24, 2015 17:04
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Remember at most of those points Jessica didn't know that she couldn't be controlled. She just thought he was holding back on controlling her.
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Nov 24, 2015 17:09
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Comrade Fakename posted:I was pretty disappointed with this. It was significantly worse than Daredevil. She was being tasered a bunch You mean when she said that if she touched him all the cops would kill themselves? The whole point was she was unwilling to have others die. I am pretty sure she used the rest of the sedative at that point so she had none left. The lesbian lawyers were important to the things that happened in the last act and showed that some people can be as bad as Kilgrave. The Drug Addict social worker was important for Jessica to realize that she had people that she could count on and were loyal to her. It was also a huge gently caress you to Jessica as he took the person she saved and ruined his life. She did not realize that as she literally killed a person and then he was hit by a bus, so she assumed that was the reason why. bobkatt013 fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Nov 24, 2015 |
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Nov 24, 2015 17:11
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Kheldarn posted:First time I've ever binged watched something, and I have to say, despite my initial impressions after the first trailer, it wasn't as bad as I expected. Ironically, I didn't find it heavy/emotional/etc. like most of you did. Catching up with the thread and I just have to completely disagree with this. The sex scenes were ABSOLUTELY necessary, and told so much by body language and tone. LIke Jessica having to turn around because it was getting to emotional (soooo much better than how it came across in the comics) and the general sense of control and agency evinced by the women having it. Sex is a huge part of life, and I'm glad that there's finally a show that bothers spelling it out, rather than having it come from a purient place.
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Nov 24, 2015 17:11
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I thought Kilgrave was very clever with his powers and Jessica had to work really hard to beat him.
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Nov 24, 2015 17:12
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Boys and girls touching transmits cooties and I'm glad so many goons understand this in a sexhaver world.zoux posted:I thought Kilgrave was very clever with his powers and Jessica had to work really hard to beat him. He was actually. The whole thing with Malcolm was quite clever. Get around the usual issues with his powers by forcing him to become a junkie. Just a shame they couldn't get Kilgrave on heroin. He has no barriers at all to acquiring it so he'd probably burn out and kill himself in a few months. The Sharmat fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Nov 24, 2015 |
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Nov 24, 2015 17:13
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Shageletic posted:Catching up with the thread and I just have to completely disagree with this. The sex scenes were ABSOLUTELY necessary, and told so much by body language and tone. LIke Jessica having to turn around because it was getting to emotional (soooo much better than how it came across in the comics) and the general sense of control and agency evinced by the women having it. They were also important as its one of the few times that she can let lose with her power that has positive ramification as before it was all tied in with Kilgrave. They were also completely inversed when her and Luke fought at the end.
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Nov 24, 2015 17:14
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It would be hard to name sex scenes that are less gratuitous than the Cage/Jones scenes.
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Nov 24, 2015 17:16
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zoux posted:If they are working for good, if their goals are what we would consider socially worthwhile, like getting an innocent girl freed as opposed to, say, building a huge meth empire, then they aren't anti heroes. Because I absolutely have to  over Breaking Bad, Walt was a villain protagonist. He always believed his motivation was to help his family (a good goal!), but the point of the show was that was a lie and he just wanted to be really evil.
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Nov 24, 2015 17:35
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Jessica Jones almost drunkenly murders a women while trying to intimidate her into acquiescing in a lawsuit. "Not an anti-hero." mycot posted:Because I absolutely have to Google tells me this is a TvTropes thing. 
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Nov 24, 2015 17:57
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TV tropes did not invent many or even most of the terms it uses.
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Nov 24, 2015 17:59
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The Sharmat posted:TV tropes did not invent many or even most of the terms it uses. no it's like when something is "a Tumblr thing", that means it's Bad and Lame and you are not allowed to reference it
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Nov 24, 2015 18:08
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Jessica Jones almost drunkenly murders a women while trying to intimidate her into acquiescing in a lawsuit. I mean it in a very literal way. If Walter White is your baseline of an antihero you're going to have a really short list outside of like Hannibal Lecter from the Hannibal show (and the movie where Hannibal cries over his dead sister wouldn't make it).
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Nov 24, 2015 18:15
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Again, clearly the problem is people having wildly different definitions of anti-hero. Some people think anti-hero = villain protagonist, while others think a villain protagonist should be an entirely different level than an anti-hero. Meanwhile, BravestOfThe Lamps has a bizarre definition I've never heard of before. I don't think anyone disagrees that Jessica did bad things, so in the end it's just arguing over terminology. We should move on.
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Nov 24, 2015 18:26
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I think the original, strict definition of anti-hero has become useless in terms of descriptive power because we live in a culture in love with very flawed protagonists.
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Nov 24, 2015 18:27
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I find it interesting that both Daredevil and Jessica Jones have been 100% ok with their protagonists doing some pretty brutal torture on their enemies.
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Nov 24, 2015 18:44
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Dexo posted:Remember at most of those points Jessica didn't know that she couldn't be controlled. She just thought he was holding back on controlling her. Well, as I mentioned, it was ridiculous that she couldn't work out that she was immune. But, all I'm talking about is her acting fast to incapacitate Kilgrave before he can talk. Of course, Jessica actually does this when she sticks him with the needle during the chinese meal in her house. bobkatt013 posted:1) She was being tasered a bunch 1) It ended with her being tasered a bunch, she had plenty of opportunities before that to clobber those guys with the super powers the writers forgot she had. 2) I don't think he said they'd kill themselves if she touched him. I felt it was a pretty good assumption that they would only kill themselves on Kilgrave's command. Even then, there's a chance that if she works fast enough (she is a superhero) she can kill him before triggers are pulled, and worst case scenario is that anyone not having a gun pointing at them survives and fewer people still die overall. 3) She had plenty, she took two or more bottles and only used one syringe, and even used another syringe on him later. 4) The aborted foetus was not important at all, it could have been edited out completely and you wouldn't have noticed. "Some people can be as bad as Kilgrave" could have been demonstrated in a plot that actually went somewhere. 5) He was important to the story, and Jessica's character, but that doesn't change the fact that he was whiney and forgettable. 6) The flashback represented Jessica's memory of the event. In the flashback we clearly see (hear) that Kilgrave gives Jessica commands that she doesn't follow. Jessica had plenty of time to consider that memory, and in fact we saw the flashback multiple times (representing her remembering it). A lot, maybe all, of these criticisms are very nitpicky and even petty. Similar things happen in other TV shows and films all the time. Jessica Jones' problem is that there are simply so many of them. Oh, another thing - a lot of people have commented that Simpson's character is meant to be a takedown of "toxic masculinity" or whatever. I think that's probably true. But it's undermined by the fact that until he starts taking those pills, he's 100% right about everything. If he'd been able to go along with his bomb plan, the outcome would have been much better for every single character on the show, and far fewer people would have died.
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Nov 24, 2015 18:53
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Mover posted:I find it interesting that both Daredevil and Jessica Jones have been 100% ok with their protagonists doing some pretty brutal torture on their enemies. Uhhh, I wouldn't say JJ was 100% OK with it? The supporting characters are clearly shown becoming deeply uncomfortable with Jessica's torture of Kilgrave, and eventually Trish has to violently stop her from killing him. And instead of Jessica getting what she wants through unsavory means, Kilgrave manipulates her even while being beaten, then he escapes, the evidence is destroyed, and as a result even more people suffer and die. It was clearly shown to be the wrong decision; Kilgrave can only be stopped through murder. That seems like both in-universe and outside condemnation of her torture: It didn't work and it made things even worse. I haven't seen Daredevil so I have no idea about that one.
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Nov 24, 2015 18:56
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Comrade Fakename posted:Well, as I mentioned, it was ridiculous that she couldn't work out that she was immune. But, all I'm talking about is her acting fast to incapacitate Kilgrave before he can talk. Of course, Jessica actually does this when she sticks him with the needle during the chinese meal in her house. 1) Or she pulled her punches since she thought they were innocent victims being controlled by Kilgrave. 2) A bunch would have still died and she was trying to prevent that and she thought he could control her. 4) Only it made all the events of the final season to occur. 6) She did not like thinking about it and most of the time was blocking it out with booze. We only saw pieces of it, and it was not until she realized that he could not control her it dawned on her. You know besides Hope, and Jessica would have to live with the fact that she was responsible for an innocent being in jail.
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Nov 24, 2015 19:12
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The Sharmat posted:
I really liked this. Its like a lion in a cage stalking prey.
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Nov 24, 2015 19:29
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I'm super bummed cage didn't talk incesently about his bottom line or getting paid. However, I was happy to see a canon amount of broken walls in his fight scenes.
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Nov 24, 2015 19:34
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The Sharmat posted:
I loved his failsafes for if his powers are neutralized. When the security firm guy was like "uh, he's just paying us, with money?", the characters (and me) were like "huh, that didn't occur to me"
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Nov 24, 2015 19:36
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Why is it unbelievable that a bunch of top level private security guards with tasers could beat up a woman with super strength? Jessica doesn't have any real fight training and being swarmed is going to gently caress her up just as much as anyone else. I mean, they took down Simpson at the same time and Trish showed the baseline for a "normal" person by going out with a single tase. Plus the whole purpose of the fight was for the security to keep her and Simpson occupied while they rescued Killgrave. Jessica isn't a great fighter, especially when surprised. She's good when she initiates and is able to freely use her super strength on surprised people.
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Nov 24, 2015 19:38
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Tasers (those were closer to loving cattle prods) are kinda using her own super strength against her anyway when they make her super muscles contract.
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Nov 24, 2015 19:39
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Gyges posted:Why is it unbelievable that a bunch of top level private security guards with tasers could beat up a woman with super strength? Jessica doesn't have any real fight training and being swarmed is going to gently caress her up just as much as anyone else. I mean, they took down Simpson at the same time and Trish showed the baseline for a "normal" person by going out with a single tase. Plus the whole purpose of the fight was for the security to keep her and Simpson occupied while they rescued Killgrave. I think its just that her powers expand and shrink as the story needs it to. If she can propel her ~115lb body 4 stories up, she should be breaking those guys in half. But sometimes the story needs her to not be Drunk Supergirl, so she isnt.
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Nov 24, 2015 19:41
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Terrible Horse posted:I loved his failsafes for if his powers are neutralized. When the security firm guy was like "uh, he's just paying us, with money?", the characters (and me) were like "huh, that didn't occur to me" Yeah usually people with these amazing nigh-omniscient powers have to forget some critical application of them in order to let the hero win, but I can't think of any really stupid mistakes or oversights that Kilgrave didn't make that aren't also explained by his own character flaws. It also let Jess do some really smart stuff, the initial plan to capture him was well executed and professional, and drugging the help to distract Kilgrave while she shot him up with tranqs was also really cool.
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Nov 24, 2015 19:44
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Terrible Horse posted:I think its just that her powers expand and shrink as the story needs it to. If she can propel her ~115lb body 4 stories up, she should be breaking those guys in half. But sometimes the story needs her to not be Drunk Supergirl, so she isnt. Look at how Jessica and Luke fight normal people vs how they fight each other. They basically just throw people out of the way because they don't want to destroy them. This is much harder when you've got 5 guys dangling off your, destroying any leverage and shocking the poo poo out of you. She doesn't actually want to hurt hurt anyone and thinks all these people are being controlled. Especially after Killgrave had her kill Luke's wife by punching her full force in the chest.
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Nov 24, 2015 19:47
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Terrible Horse posted:I think its just that her powers expand and shrink as the story needs it to. If she can propel her ~115lb body 4 stories up, she should be breaking those guys in half. But sometimes the story needs her to not be Drunk Supergirl, so she isnt. We only ever see it portrayed as a Hulk style jump but the way she keeps describing it as controlled falling, it's probably meant to be a separate power and not a function of her strength.
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Nov 24, 2015 19:48
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Aphrodite posted:We only ever see it portrayed as a Hulk style jump but the way she keeps describing it as controlled falling, it's probably meant to be a separate power and not a function of her strength. It's using her super strength and her lovely flight powers together. In the show it seems like her flight ability is more of a lovely glide than any real flight.
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Nov 24, 2015 19:52
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I know Kilgraves end mirrored the cockroach in the sink being squished effortlessly, but for all the horror and pain he inflicted on a shitload of people, he got off waaaay to easy. A little choking and a couple of seconds of dawning comprehension that boy, he is hosed, then snap and he's done. Not as carthatic as I would have hoped. At least tear out his larynx, for christ's sake. I want my villains to suffer 
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Nov 24, 2015 19:54
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zoux posted:Yeah usually people with these amazing nigh-omniscient powers have to forget some critical application of them in order to let the hero win, but I can't think of any really stupid mistakes or oversights that Kilgrave didn't make that aren't also explained by his own character flaws. It also let Jess do some really smart stuff, the initial plan to capture him was well executed and professional, and drugging the help to distract Kilgrave while she shot him up with tranqs was also really cool. Yup, this show was definitely written sharply. Its a pretty pleasant surprise (I only know Melissa Rosenburg from the Twilight movies). The pretty reasonable plans and counter-plans made up a pretty solid backbone in the entire series. ^^^ That feeling of disappointment? Defintely was meant to be there I think.
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Nov 24, 2015 20:01
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Shageletic posted:^^^ That feeling of disappointment? Defintely was meant to be there I think. The entire sequence with Jessica afterwards definitely has a "Well poo poo. What now?" feeling to it.
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Nov 24, 2015 20:10
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Comrade Fakename posted:Oh, another thing - a lot of people have commented that Simpson's character is meant to be a takedown of "toxic masculinity" or whatever. I think that's probably true. But it's undermined by the fact that until he starts taking those pills, he's 100% right about everything. If he'd been able to go along with his bomb plan, the outcome would have been much better for every single character on the show, and far fewer people would have died. I think that ho much you are agreeing with Simpson just indicates, how much "toxic masculinity" you have.
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Nov 24, 2015 20:23
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Simpson's fault isn't wanting to kill Kilgrave, it's not listening to/heeding the advice of/acknowledging the opinions of the females around him. Agreeing that Jessica should've just killed Kilgrave doesn't make someone like Simpson.
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Nov 24, 2015 20:28
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Saying that just indicates how much toxic masculinity you have.
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Nov 24, 2015 20:36
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adhuin posted:I think that ho much you are agreeing with Simpson just indicates, how much "toxic masculinity" you have. lol
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Nov 24, 2015 20:38
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Until Hope sacrifices herself Simpson's insistence that they Kill mudercorpse isn't even the correct course of action, and arguably still isn't the correct course of action afterwards. Just because he's correct in the end doesn't mean he's correct in the moment.
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Nov 24, 2015 20:39
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