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Erikson, along with many other people, talks about it in the Tor re-read. I agree, it's probably one of the roughest sections of the entire series to read.
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Nov 20, 2015 11:54
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Does anyone recall what happens to Masan Gilani in TCG? I don't remember her showing up again after she rides with the Seven of the Dead Fires.
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Nov 20, 2015 21:02
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Aranan posted:Erikson, along with many other people, talks about it in the Tor re-read. I agree, it's probably one of the roughest sections of the entire series to read. drat, as soon as I get through with TCG (I'm about 700 pages in right now, give or take - Badalle and Saddic just discovered "toys" (talk about a heart crushing moment) and Ganoes just gave a Pure Assail the world's biggest middle finger) I think I'm going to have to check out all the re-read posts.
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Nov 20, 2015 22:07
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zeal posted:Does anyone recall what happens to Masan Gilani in TCG? I don't remember her showing up again after she rides with the Seven of the Dead Fires. You might want to add in what book the spoiler relates to outside the spoiler tag. But no. I can't remember any mention of her. Not even in the lead up to the final battle where there's poo poo loads of little scenes for different people. Not even in the final battle but that could be me not remembering. Granted my last re-read of TGC was spread out over months.
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Nov 21, 2015 00:04
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Having skimmed the concluding sections of TCG, I get the impression she's one of several Bonehunter marines who die off-screen defending the Crippled God's body, though I didn't see her fate mentioned explicitly. E: The same skimming only reaffirmed my abiding appreciation of the jaghut in general.
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Nov 24, 2015 02:32
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Someone would have mentioned 'Daaaamn son, look at the legs and butt on that corpse!' so I am pretty sure she is fine.
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Nov 24, 2015 03:10
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And that made me Google Masan Gilani to check, and now I've seen the 'fan art'. Welp. 
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Nov 24, 2015 11:27
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I kind of love that among the many, varied and relatively progressive female characters in the series, there’s one whose entire personality and sole character trait is “got the booty” and whose defining moment comes about because her powerful booty-bearing thighs allow her to ride a horse really good
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Nov 24, 2015 13:12
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Eh, there's a bit more to her. She gets to do some planning with Sinter and Kisswhere in TCG on account of some shared swampland mumbo jumbo. And she's got a kid somewhere that she presumably abandoned. Not exactly a deep characterization but not one-dimensional.
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Nov 24, 2015 13:24
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Aranan posted:Erikson, along with many other people, talks about it in the Tor re-read. My main issue with [DoD spoilers]Hetan's plot was that it was basically "We interrupt our story for the brutal rape and torture of a woman, lovingly detailed in excruciating detail. Ok, we're done. Back to the real story." If you want to comment on how our society deals with torture and rape, then actually do that. This just came across as wanting to shock the reader, just for the sake of the shock. Raygereio fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Nov 24, 2015 |
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Nov 24, 2015 16:06
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Raygereio posted:Reading Erikson's post in the comments made me even more convinced someone should have stepped in and told him to either remove or completely rewrite it. This first part is responding to your pre-edit: Clearly from comments his view is that torture exactly like that has likely happened in the real world, and that torture does happen, we have a duty not to flinch and pretend it doesn't and that everything is fine in our world, fine with people. He would and probably did tell people advising him not to put it in to gently caress off because the books are about humanity, both the zenith and the nadir and that plot is definitely nadir, you can't just gloss over it. The response to the second part is: what. Did you not see something horrible building? It wasn't interrupting the story, is was a story, complete with foreshadowing. His commentary on it is that people are capable of doing this, do this to each other. His thoughts on it are right there, by putting it in the story, the brutal depiction, the way it's written. The writing is anything but loving, it's not inviting you to get a boner or join in going "Yeah! gently caress that bitch she deserved it!" It is excruciatingly detailed though. It's horror upon horror upon horror until it makes you sick and want to throw down the book and walk away entirely. I've only gotten that feeling that's a mix of disgust, helplessness, anger and shame from reading real life accounts of refugees/torture/abuse victims so I'm amazed an author can evoke it with fantasy characters. I think you're confusing the lack of active condemnation in the writing, which from his comments in the re-read he chose to do in favour of the matter of fact style, with approval for what is happening. From putting it in the book in the first place, the writing of the scene and his comments in the re-read it comes across to me that it's something he feels passionately about and had to restrict himself during the writing, so that his personal feelings wouldn't bleed through and the scene becomes about his thoughts and feelings rather than about the horror of her suffering and more broadly how entirely poo poo as a species we are.
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Nov 24, 2015 18:14
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Raygereio posted:If you want to comment on how our society deals with torture and rape, then actually do that. This just came across as wanting to shock the reader, just for the sake of the shock. What he wrote is probably the best commentary you can have in a fantasy novel. The first time I read it, with the expectation that something pretty drat brutal was going to happen, I got numb and had to put the book down. Would you rather he looked away? e: one of the main threads of the series is to witness. In this case what we witnessed was terrible, but Erikson wanted to show us how humans can be absolute terrors to each other.
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Nov 24, 2015 18:52
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I honestly never felt like the scene was disconnected from the plot. It's been foreshadowed, developed and it's eventually used to add to the character of Tool (and Toc). Her part was pretty important for the whole Barghast plotline, not just because she was a PoV character but because it built on the theme of old versus new that is present in the whole series - and in this case, demonstrating the victory of old tradition in an extremely brutal fashion. It is hard to read but definitely doesn't feel pointless or tacked on.
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Nov 24, 2015 19:12
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It also condemned the meta-idea (even outside the novel) of the "noble savage." The Barghast are a violent and cruel and barbaric culture, not some Garden of Eden tribe full of lost wisdom. It's easy to get caught up in their apparent honor or genuineness when compared to the duplicity of the "civilized" Malazans and Letherii. For a while, you look at the Barghast as role models... and then you get the brutal reminder that they truly are savage and just as horrible as (and even worse than) the rest of the world.
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Nov 24, 2015 19:47
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Infinite Karma posted:It also condemned the meta-idea (even outside the novel) of the "noble savage." Let's be absolutely clear: Tommofork posted:I think you're confusing the lack of active condemnation in the writing, with approval for what is happening. I'd have to reread the books to really argue my point, but like I said: it came across to me as wanting to shock the reader, just for the sake of the shock.  I don't know, I just didn't enjoy reading it. Not because it made me uncomfortable, but because I didn't think it was interesting (for a lack of a better word). For that matter, I found the whole Barghast plotline from DoD to be uninteresting.
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Nov 24, 2015 20:59
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Raygereio posted:Karsa did that more effectively I thought. The Janath scenes mostly bored the hell out of me because they were peak philosophizing for wall of text paragraphs. The Barghast stuff makes reasonable sense as they just got their Gods who are all from thousands of years back and, immediately, want things the way they want them from back in their day. Getting their Gods pretty much set the Barghast on a self-destruct course.
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Nov 24, 2015 21:04
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Raygereio posted:Karsa did that more effectively I thought. He also uses wholesale slaughter, murder, theft, extreme torture and cruelty on mind-boggling scales, slavery etc to hammer the same points, repeatedly, over the series. It contrasts with extreme heroism, sacrifice and generosity of other characters which also happens repeatedly over the series, showing good and bad aspects of humanity. Saying "actually I just didn't find that part worthwhile and he should've cut it", which was the first part of your original post, was totally fine. It's when you elaborated and said the rape plot came out of nowhere (it didn't) and it was lovingly detailed (it wasn't), it was in excruciating detail (it was) and there was no point to it except to shock the reader and should've been cut, which we've gone over and it is definitely shocking but he clearly stated his reasons about why he had the scene/plot in the book beyond shock factor, which you referenced in your post but didn't elaborate on, that I jumped on. I wouldn't be all  "but in defense of rape in a work of fiction" over here and feeling awkward as hell about it.As an extra bonus, you could say why you disagree with Erikson's reasons, because we could talk about that.  I tend to get irritated when people call Erikson lazy, or that he uses cookie cutter characters or he's done something without thinking carefully about it, when you're reading an intricately plotted 10 book long series that's being expounded upon even now. This part isn't directed at you Raygereio, but when people say all his soldiers are the same it just tells me they're an idiot incapable of distinguishing different personalities by how they interact with one another and react to situations. That or they've taken too long to read the series and have forgotten the bits where characters' personalities are distinguished. It wasn't until Erikson rubbed my god drat nose in it in TCG during Tavore's speech to the Regulars, as they prepare to hold for the heavies, marines & new bridge burners, where she calls out specific Regulars by name and their acts of heroism unmentioned until now, that the whole loving series the Bonehunter Regulars are an example of the "unwittnessed" that Tavore's original speech referenced. Also that speech was baller as hell. Also Tavore crying to Ganoes over losing Felisin is so sad. She would've broke in two if she found out she killed Felisin. 
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Nov 26, 2015 04:13
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zeal posted:Does anyone recall what happens to Masan Gilani in TCG? I don't remember her showing up again after she rides with the Seven of the Dead Fires. She takes part in the battle at the Crippled God's body, and Fiddler notes her as one of the survivors.
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Nov 26, 2015 05:10
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I could practically hear Tavore's [TCG]anguished scream. Between that short sentence and the offhand remark about her necklace her character comes fully into focus after so much ambiguity over thousands of pages. Her, albeit long, eventual unveiling is one of the most masterful subplots in the series. Also when you realize why each soldier is picked to actually have story time.
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Nov 26, 2015 09:27
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Tommofork posted:I tend to get irritated when people call Erikson lazy, or that he uses cookie cutter characters or he's done something without thinking carefully about it I'm sure Erikson thought careful about it and that he was completely truthful in that Tor comment where he laid out his reasoning and what he wanted to achieve with that scene. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with him, think that he achieved what he set out to do, or even think it's was a worthwhile something to try in that manner in the first place. I'll admit my memory could be faulty, but I honestly remember Hetan's plot as coming out nowhere, having no real point to it with regards to the rest of the plotlines and having way more detail and length to it then any other individual act of cruelty. You don't necessarily have to feel awkward of uncomfortable for leaping to the defense of rape in a work of fiction, because the rape itself wasn't really my problem with it (and having written that sentence I'm starting to feel awkward about it as well, so let's quickly move on). I thought the Snake scenes from DoD dragged on too long, similarly to Hetan's scenes. But I don't have as negative opinion about them because there was a payoff for them in the next book. One that I didn't feel (or don't remember, it honestly has been a while) like Hetan's scenes got in the end. I think you can certainly make a good argument that it being pointless was the point. But that doesn't make it interesting to actually read. Maybe I'll form another opinion about it all when I re-read it with Erikson comment in the back of my head. Tommofork posted:As an extra bonus, you could say why you disagree with Erikson's reasons, because we could talk about that.  Tommofork posted:when people say all his soldiers are the same it just tells me they're an idiot incapable of distinguishing different personalities by how they interact with one another and react to situations. I did always think that Erikson's technique of giving the characters that didn't get much characterization a unique quirk in order to make them all not appear like a faceless horde worked reasonably well. It's something I stole shamelessly. Raygereio fucked around with this message at 11:00 on Nov 26, 2015 |
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Nov 26, 2015 10:56
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So I just started rereading toll the hounds and I think I get it: the entire book is one big midlife crisis and/or re-litigation of the past. Right?
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Nov 26, 2015 15:19
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uh zip zoom posted:So I just started rereading toll the hounds and I think I get it: the entire book is one big midlife crisis and/or re-litigation of the past. Right?
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Nov 26, 2015 15:28
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Raygereio posted:Are you sure you're not misdirecting some irritation at Erikson-bashers here? Yeah I mentioned that part wasn't directed at you. It's like when someone complains about a movie being poo poo, you ask why, and from their reasons it's like they watched with their eyes closed they missed so much. It bugs me to an unreasonable degree. Raygereio posted:You don't necessarily have to feel awkward of uncomfortable for leaping to the defense of rape in a work of fiction, because the rape itself wasn't really my problem with it (and having written that sentence I'm starting to feel awkward about it as well, so let's quickly move on). I thought the Snake scenes from DoD dragged on too long, similarly to Hetan's scenes. But I don't have as negative opinion about them because there was a payoff for them in the next book. One that I didn't feel (or don't remember, it honestly has been a while) like Hetan's scenes got in the end. That particular plot ends in DoD in futility, but DoD is intended as half of TCG and not as standalone as other novels. The plan from Hetan's brother Cafal and another woman of the camp whose name I've forgotten were going to free her, but due to happenstance everything goes wrong, Hetan 'escapes' after she's ordered to walk off, her mind still broken, and eventually sits down on a cold night and dies. It is revisited a bit in TCG with Toc bringing Hetan back somehow, but Hetan seems confused and remarks she has someone else's feet. Raygereio posted:I'll be starting Gardens of the Moon again right after I've finished the last Black Company omnibus. See you after 10 books. Fuuuuuuck by the time you finish I'll have forgotten everything and we can go in circles. Man Black Company was weird. Like Vietnam translated to a fantasy setting while on peyote.Raygereio posted:To be fair: Erikson's soldiers do tend to have rather similar voices, to the point where it can be hard to distinguish them. There are several passages where you could almost replace the names from one squad, with those from another and have it still work. But it's understandable that Erikson didn't flesh all his soldiers out and gave them all unique characterization since there's so darn many of them and most of them never really jump out from the background anyway. I think the hard part is remembering the differences, especially for a first time reader. There are so many and they don't get their personalities really shown except for little tidbit scenes from various books, so it's really easy for them to blend together unless they have very distinct characteristics. Lunchmeat Larry posted:It’s about Erikson’s dad dying and also Torvald Nom raping a woman by deception in a comedy scene for no particular reason gently caress me I'd forgotten about that scene. Urgh.
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Nov 26, 2015 15:37
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What the heck, I don't remember anything about that Torvald Nom plot point. And I just reread TTH like four months ago.
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Nov 26, 2015 23:53
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Just finished GoTM and started Deadhouse Gates. gently caress, this series owns, can't put it down. Must be the history nerd in me, the world and it's history are so detailed. Don't know anything about them but I'm getting an Augustus and Agrippa vibe from Kellanved and Dancer. Do any of the books give more detail about the two? Coltaine reminds me of all those Roman generals and Emperor's later in the Imperial era that were descended from the people Rome conquered but were vital to it surviving. I'm reading the Kindle versions and I'll read them for what seems like a long time but I'll check my progress and it will be like a whopping 3% or something.
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Nov 27, 2015 04:25
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You will love the series
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Nov 27, 2015 05:18
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I wonder how Rome would have turned out if Augustus was more like Kellanved... Anyway, yeah, just keep reading, you'll be figuring the connections and history out as you go along (and you'll be wrong most of the time - goddamnit FoD). It's one hell of a journey.
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Nov 27, 2015 07:23
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Aranan posted:What the heck, I don't remember anything about that Torvald Nom plot point. And I just reread TTH like four months ago.
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Nov 27, 2015 10:18
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Mustang posted:Don't know anything about them but I'm getting an Augustus and Agrippa vibe from Kellanved and Dancer. Do any of the books give more detail about the two?
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Nov 27, 2015 11:40
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Just finished TCG. Will probably have to gather my thoughts a little, because holy poo poo. Took me 11 months to read the series (I started in early January I think), and I can already say I know for sure there will be a re-read. Might take a little longer to do than the first read did. (TCG - very vague and minor spoiler but still) The ending was loving fantastic. I've seen series that struggled with bringing plot threads to a close and well, yeah, Erikson missed some and there are still plenty of floating webs out there but all things considered I think he did an incredible job. This has been the best thing I've ever read, period. I seriously wonder if there's anything out there I could read now that wouldn't be a HUGE step down from this. Mustang posted:Just finished GoTM and started Deadhouse Gates. gently caress, this series owns, can't put it down. Must be the history nerd in me, the world and it's history are so detailed. Yeah, I said very similar things early on, so I think you're gonna loving love these books, keep reading. e: VVV I stopped reading Martin after A Feast For Crows. I've had Dance With Dragons on my bookshelf for years, still untouched. Someone bought it for me. Fenrir fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Nov 28, 2015 |
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Nov 28, 2015 20:50
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Fenrir posted:This has been the best thing I've ever read, period. I seriously wonder if there's anything out there I could read now that wouldn't be a HUGE step down from this.
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Nov 28, 2015 21:00
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zeal posted:Does anyone recall what happens to Masan Gilani in TCG? I don't remember her showing up again after she rides with the Seven of the Dead Fires. (TCG)She is in the battle guarding TCG's body, in a scene with Sinter and Kisswhere, and she does survive that battle.
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Nov 28, 2015 21:04
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Tommofork posted:It wasn't until Erikson rubbed my god drat nose in it in TCG during Tavore's speech to the Regulars, as they prepare to hold for the heavies, marines & new bridge burners, where she calls out specific Regulars by name and their acts of heroism unmentioned until now, that the whole loving series the Bonehunter Regulars are an example of the "unwittnessed" that Tavore's original speech referenced. Also that speech was baller as hell. Also Tavore crying to Ganoes over losing Felisin is so sad. She would've broke in two if she found out she killed Felisin. At that point (The whole series, really) when she's screaming to Ganoes I flat out loving lost it. In fact that's the one time I really appreciated Pearl. If you remember, it was his idea to take Felisin's body away so Tavore never knew that she killed her own sister.
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Nov 28, 2015 21:09
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Fenrir posted:At that point (The whole series, really) when she's screaming to Ganoes I flat out loving lost it. In fact that's the one time I really appreciated Pearl. If you remember, it was his idea to take Felisin's body away so Tavore never knew that she killed her own sister. You generally don't expect assassins to be funny but really grew on me, to the point where I was genuinely sorry for him by the end of his arc.
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Nov 28, 2015 21:15
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anilEhilated posted:Hey, Pearl was great. It was nice to see a stylish bad guy - or someone genuinely likeable who just happens to be on the "wrong" side. His parts were some of my favorite bits in DH/HoC/BH. Hmm, I never felt sorry for him because I always thought he was a raging fuckass, (BH-TCG)I mean, come on, he hosed Kalam over hard and he only did it to get the job Laseen wanted to give Kalam. That said one of the best things about this series is that people are much more realistic than "BLAH BLAH EVIL or BLAH BLAH RIGHTEOUS" and as much as a toolbag as he was, Pearl wanted to do right by Tavore and never let her know that she'd killed her sister.
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Nov 29, 2015 01:21
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Lunchmeat Larry posted:he breaks into a house and the woman is lying on the bed and thinks it’s her husband, so he doesn’t correct her, fucks her and leaves while chuckling to himself. It’s played for laughs and never mentioned again so it's kind of easy to gloss over Torvald Norm broke into the house of & robbed the loanshark that made him flee Darujhistan over his debts. The chuckling to himself bit happened when Torvald mentally dialogued to himself that he was going directly to the loanshark's storefront and repaying his outstanding debt with that stolen money. If you enjoy Tehol & Bugg, do or do not read any of the Bertie & Jeeves books. Erikson seemed to have borrowed some of the B & J series dynamics for them. Warning: high levels of toleration for upper class british social hijinks will be needed.
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Nov 29, 2015 03:22
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Fenrir posted:Hmm, I never felt sorry for him because I always thought he was a raging fuckass, (BH-TCG)I mean, come on, he hosed Kalam over hard and he only did it to get the job Laseen wanted to give Kalam. That said one of the best things about this series is that people are much more realistic than "BLAH BLAH EVIL or BLAH BLAH RIGHTEOUS" and as much as a toolbag as he was, Pearl wanted to do right by Tavore and never let her know that she'd killed her sister. NoNostalgia4Grover posted:Torvald Norm broke into the house of & robbed the loanshark that made him flee Darujhistan over his debts. The chuckling to himself bit happened when anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 11:15 on Nov 29, 2015 |
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Nov 29, 2015 11:13
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Eh, I'm with you on Udinaas. I mentioned him as one of my favorites back when I was still on MT. Also, my mom said something I thought was funny about Darujhistan - "It's only really interesting when Anomander Rake is there." It's kinda true.
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Nov 29, 2015 14:04
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If you like Erikson and want someone with comparable--albeit very different--writing, try Glen Cook. He changes writing styles between books or sections of books--often deliberately--but brings about those moments of amazement in a similar way to Erikson.
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Nov 29, 2015 14:19
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Fenrir posted:Also, my mom said something I thought was funny about Darujhistan - "It's only really interesting when Anomander Rake is there." It's kinda true. Like, so much of the series is about armies or individuals marching / riding / sailing vast distances, Darujhistan always felt like a nice change of pace to me, especially the parts where it turns into 1001 Nights: Malazan Edition with Kruppe as the narrator. Illinois Smith fucked around with this message at 11:20 on Nov 30, 2015 |
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Nov 30, 2015 11:14
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