|
Swan Oat posted:Also considering how often Turkey violates Greek airspace, it would be funny if the Greeks just shot down the next fighter that did so. They have done so in the past.
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 20:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 00:28 |
|
|
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34917226 Some kind of hostage situation in France, near Belgium going on apparently. quote:Reports say that a group of armed men may have taken hostages in the northern French town of Roubaix. Assuming related to the attacks, could be wrong yet.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 20:38
|
|
|
Kaal posted:Assad's regime is still recognized as Syria's government in some respects, but not all. Military sovereignty is one of them. He's lost so much territory, and has expressed so little control over what territory that he has left, that the U.S. decided it did not need to seek Assad's permission to operate its aircraft over Syria. This position was later supported by UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon, who recognized that the US was operating without Syria's permission, and agreed that the US air strikes were occurring in areas that were no longer under the effective control of the Syrian government. I am asking this out of ignorance: How well is the Turkish border along Syria secured?
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 20:38
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Warned previously intruders would be shot down, and according to Turkey at least, this aircraft was warned too, and it apparently strayed in twice. Where is the proof it was warned? Turkey can say whatever it wants given that their position is pretty biased. Also as it was over Turkey airspace for 17 seconds (according to their own radar logs) it was not a spur of the moment thing and they probably planned this days/weeks ahead of time. They also had to have an outstanding OK order to shoot down a Russian aircraft as 17 seconds is nowhere near the time needed to escalate that up the chain of command during this specific instance. Will be interesting to see what Putin does.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 20:40
|
|
|
is there some disputed airspace for greece<-> Turkey? Those numbers are absurdly high. fake edit: looks like current 'agreed' airspace is 6 nautical miles from land but Greece claims 10 nautical miles from land. I'd wager most (all?) of those violations fall in the 6-10 band.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 20:40
|
|
|
So Russia finally released their map of the flight path, complete with convenient bend around Turkish airspace. Might as well have just drawn that bit in with crayon.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 20:41
|
|
|
Mackers posted:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34917226 Twitter saying that local media says it's a robbery gone wrong and not related to terrorism, but jfc you're really living life on the edge by taking hostages in France right now, even more-so that in any other circumstances.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 20:42
|
|
|
Rad Russian posted:Where is the proof it was warned? Given that it was over Turkey airspace for 17 seconds (according to their own radar logs) it was not a spur of the moment thing and they probably planned this days/weeks ahead of time. They also had to have an outstanding OK order to shoot down a Russian aircraft as 17 seconds is nowhere near the time needed to escalate that up the chain of command during this specific instance. Will be interesting to see what Putin does. Turkey does claim that the plane repeatedly entered Turkish airspace and they warned it 10 times. Given earlier incidents, the Turkish military likely did have orders to respond with force the next time something happened. It essentially seems to be Erdogan calling Putin's bluff. There's probably little Russia can do about this beyond be angry.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 20:42
|
|
|
Dead Cosmonaut posted:I am asking this out of ignorance: How well is the Turkish border along Syria secured? All Turkish border crossing but one are controlled by Kurds. They were preparing the seal the border completely until Erdogan started antagonizing them again.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 20:43
|
|
|
TheDeadlyShoe posted:is there some disputed airspace for greece<-> Turkey? Those numbers are absurdly high. Greece and Turkey have a somewhat fraught, sometimes contentious history. Tensions persist to this day.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 20:43
|
|
|
The New Black posted:So Russia finally released their map of the flight path, complete with convenient bend around Turkish airspace. Might as well have just drawn that bit in with crayon. LOL what else to expect from Russia. Although Turkey is not disputing that both the missile hit happened inside Syrian territory and the plane crashed inside Syrian territory. So their position on this is lovely as well. Pretty much equivalent to shooting a fleeing robber in the back. NATO will be fine with this given the actors involved but still lovely thing to do. Rad Russian fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Nov 24, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 20:44
|
|
|
Rad Russian posted:LOL what else to expect from Russia. Although Turkey is not disputing that both the missile hit happened inside Syrian territory and the plane crashed inside Syrian territory. So their position on this is lovely as well. I'm not 100% certain but I don't think international conflict operates under the same rules as playground tag where you can not longer be touched once you're in the safe circle.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 20:46
|
|
|
Oberleutnant posted:I'm not 100% certain but I don't think international conflict operates under the same rules as playground tag where you can not longer be touched once you're in the safe circle. Playground tag would be much more fun with heatseeking missiles
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 20:48
|
|
|
The New Black posted:So Russia finally released their map of the flight path, complete with convenient bend around Turkish airspace. Might as well have just drawn that bit in with crayon. How does a functioning adult look at this and see nothing wrong? This is a serious question, do pro-russian trolls have developmental disabilities?
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 20:50
|
|
|
more like dICK posted:How does a functioning adult look at this and see nothing wrong? This is a serious question, do pro-russian trolls have developmental disabilities? How would a Russian aircraft hypothetically avoid violating an airspace if they were aware of its presence?
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 20:51
|
|
|
Swan Oat posted:Also considering how often Turkey violates Greek airspace, it would be funny if the Greeks just shot down the next fighter that did so. I've been thinking this through and have come to the conclusion that Turkey shooting down a Russian aircraft is very different. Turkey is strongly opposed to Russia airstrikes on the Syrian rebels, but is unable to stop this from happening. Accepting Russian aistrikes on Syria is one thing, accepting Russian airstrikes from their own airspace is another.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 20:52
|
|
|
I say Putin doubles down and from now on escorts his bombers with SU-30SMs and SU-34s which they have in Syria. Either of those planes would (on paper) cleanup any number of F-16s. Thinking of course that Turkey wouldn't do anything from then on. Turkey would of course then sacrifice its F-16s to start WW3 because Turkey.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 20:54
|
|
|
more like dICK posted:How does a functioning adult look at this and see nothing wrong? This is a serious question, do pro-russian trolls have developmental disabilities? Russian jets are known for their ability to turn on right angles.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 20:54
|
|
|
Rad Russian posted:Where is the proof it was warned? Turkey can say whatever it wants given that their position is pretty biased. Also as it was over Turkey airspace for 17 seconds (according to their own radar logs) it was not a spur of the moment thing and they probably planned this days/weeks ahead of time. They also had to have an outstanding OK order to shoot down a Russian aircraft as 17 seconds is nowhere near the time needed to escalate that up the chain of command during this specific instance. Will be interesting to see what Putin does. The proof was a page or two back, though the warnings aren't new. Turkey has made multiple press statements and brought the issue of incursions to NATO twice. They also start giving warnings to planes miles out from the border when their travel path indicates that they are going to end up in Turkish air space. So that jet had much more than 17 seconds of notice. That being said, there likely was some type of standing order in Turkey for what do in regards to the next Russian incursion. Either way, it is not a positive turn of events in any regard and the Turkish decision to escalate events to the point of an A2A shoot down rather than shadowing or escorting the offending jet seems entirey politically motivated. While it was Russia who provided the justification by entering the Turkish air space, it was still the Turks who took the drastic step of an A2A attack in response to what was, at worst, a provocation rather than any actual threat.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 20:55
|
|
|
Rad Russian posted:I say Putin doubles down and from now on escorts his bombers with SU-30SMs and SU-34s which they have in Syria. Either of those planes would (on paper) cleanup any number of F-16s. Thinking of course that Turkey wouldn't do anything from then on. Turkey would of course then sacrifice its F-16s to start WW3 because Turkey. Hmm or you know stop purposefully flying into Turkey.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 20:55
|
|
|
Rukeli posted:I've been thinking this through and have come to the conclusion that Turkey shooting down a Russian aircraft is very different. Like with the Turks and Greeks, once in awhile Turkey and Russia have to remind the rest of the world that they hate each other.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 20:56
|
|
|
Rad Russian posted:I say Putin doubles down and from now on escorts his bombers with SU-30SMs and SU-34s which they have in Syria. Either of those planes would (on paper) cleanup any number of F-16s. Thinking of course that Turkey wouldn't do anything from then on. Turkey would of course then sacrifice its F-16s to start WW3 because Turkey. Yeah... YEAH! /makes airplane flying motions with his hands followed with machinegun fire YEAH GET EM! GET EM!
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 20:56
|
|
|
Rad Russian posted:Also as it was over Turkey airspace for 17 seconds (according to their own radar logs) Don't really get why people keep harping on this. It's an armed warship, who gives a gently caress how long it was in Turkish airspace, it was in Turkish airspace. poo poo, the Six-day War happened because Egypt had it's military somewhat near the Israeli border. Turkey has a right to defend itself.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 20:56
|
|
|
uninterrupted posted:Don't really get why people keep harping on this. It's an armed warship, who gives a gently caress how long it was in Turkish airspace, it was in Turkish airspace. Have a mobilized army near your border is entirely different than flying sporadic bombing missions over Syria. Turkey picked the absolute worst point to get riled about this.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 21:00
|
|
|
Dead Cosmonaut posted:Have a mobilized army near your border is entirely different than flying sporadic bombing missions over Syria. Turkey picked the absolute worst point to get riled about this. I don't think they "picked a point to get riled up about this", they decided to test what they can get away with (in a similar vein, but greater severity, to what the Russians have been doing for a while) and send a message of "go gently caress yourself" to Putin.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 21:02
|
|
|
uninterrupted posted:Don't really get why people keep harping on this. It's an armed warship, who gives a gently caress how long it was in Turkish airspace, it was in Turkish airspace. Six-day war happened because Egypt was going to launch an attack on Israel within hours, and fortunately Israel was able to strike first and with overwhelming force.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 21:04
|
|
|
Kaal posted:Assad's regime is still recognized as Syria's government in some respects, but not all. Military sovereignty is one of them. He's lost so much territory, and has expressed so little control over what territory that he has left, that the U.S. decided it did not need to seek Assad's permission to operate its aircraft over Syria. This position was later supported by UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon, who recognized that the US was operating without Syria's permission, and agreed that the US air strikes were occurring in areas that were no longer under the effective control of the Syrian government. Yeah but effective control is an absolute hornets nest and the US's legal reasoning in justifying the strikes inside Syria is by no means a settled thing. I mean if it ever went up in front of the ICJ there are serious doubts it would pass muster.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 21:08
|
|
|
uninterrupted posted:Turkey has a right to defend itself. Yeah, but they weren't defending themselves and everyone knows it. They seem to have been itching to shoot down a Russian jet as some kind of idiot macho display. Really not the kind of people I'd like making the calls for my country. And of course there's the usual hypocrisy of bitching to NATO over your borders, while simultaneously illegally occupying a chunk of Cyprus. gently caress both of them.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 21:08
|
|
|
it's authoritarian macho posturing vs authoritarian macho posturing. Noone wins. it boggles my mind that Russia would keep up this provocation nonsense while they were about start bombing Syria, though.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 21:15
|
|
|
I seem to recall a fair amount of hangwringing over challenging Putin militarily would result in a major confrontation between the West and Russia. Kudos to Turkey for not chickening out.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 21:18
|
|
|
Randarkman posted:I don't think they "picked a point to get riled up about this", they decided to test what they can get away with (in a similar vein, but greater severity, to what the Russians have been doing for a while) and send a message of "go gently caress yourself" to Putin. Erdogan told Putin to go gently caress himself right when Putin was about to seriously ramp up his bombing campaign in Syria. I don't think Putin has any intention of respecting this gesture. This won't be the last time it'll happen.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 21:19
|
|
|
Aren't we supposed to be allies against ISIL? The old men still fighting the Cold War could do the sensible thing and defeat this enemy decisively - or we can just nuke each other and get it over with.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 21:20
|
|
|
Turkey has been locked into its own political bullshit and has been dragging its feet over ISIS since day one.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 21:20
|
|
|
If anyone remembers the teenage girls that ISIS was using in some of their propaganda, one of them was reportedly beaten to death for trying to escape Raqqa: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tter_mailonline
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 21:21
|
|
|
McDowell posted:Aren't we supposed to be allies against ISIL? Yeah except Russia is bombing ISIS about as much as Turkey is.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 21:24
|
|
|
McDowell posted:Aren't we supposed to be allies against ISIL? Russia is mainly bombing Assad's targets, not ISIL. They could give two fucks about ISIL.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 21:25
|
|
|
Rip Testes posted:I seem to recall a fair amount of hangwringing over challenging Putin militarily would result in a major confrontation between the West and Russia. Kudos to Turkey for not chickening out. There's nothing stopping Russia from exercising pipeline diplomacy on Turkey and if that second pilot is captured and burned alive I don't think the average person will feel terribly sympathetic for the Turkish position.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 21:26
|
|
|
TheOtherContraGuy posted:There's nothing stopping Russia from exercising pipeline diplomacy on Turkey and if that second pilot is captured and burned alive I don't think the average person will feel terribly sympathetic for the Turkish position. Turkey has threatened to stop buying Russian gas in the past, they're like one of Russia's largest customers. Russia not selling gas to Turkey is about as much a blow to Russia (likely more) as it is to Turkey.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 21:28
|
|
|
Dead Cosmonaut posted:I am asking this out of ignorance: How well is the Turkish border along Syria secured? Not very well because ISIS, Kurds, foreign fighters have been able to move around without much trouble.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 21:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 00:28 |
|
|
kustomkarkommando posted:Yeah but effective control is an absolute hornets nest and the US's legal reasoning in justifying the strikes inside Syria is by no means a settled thing. But it wouldn't because the US only recognizes the ICJ on a case-by-base basis.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2015 21:34
|
|
