|
sparatuvs posted:The other pilot apparently. Fffffff this is really stepping it up a notch from just shooting down the plane. I just recently heard that they also downed a rescue helicopter so they are absolutely not screwing around.
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 00:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 01:11 |
|
|
Maarek posted:So the thread consensus is that it's a good idea for one of our NATO allies to shoot down a Russian jet plane for violating its airspace for 16 seconds because Erdogan is being bullied by Putin? Are we just going to collectively pretend Turkey's sacred borders aren't porous as a sieve when it comes to ISIS fighters now? While I'm not a fan of Erdogan, there's a bit more context to it than that, given Putin's version of imperialism over the last several years. Russia is very much into taking a mile when given an inch, and abusing agreements to benefit themselves. As an example, look at the recent chemical deal, where they were able to prevent the regime from being held responsible, make war against the regime unpalatable, and allow the regime to only give up whatever chemical weapons it felt like giving up. That's the Russia you get on the diplomatic front. Were Turkey to play the games that the US plays, Russia would just continue to ignore their role in breaching Turkish borders, while lying about it to cover their asses. Turkey adopted a different strategy where instead of attempting to negotiate with the kid who took their lunch money, they punched him in the mouth. They drew a red line, and they stuck by it. I tend to think that's the best way to address someone like Putin, and that's why I think it was the right call. I'm betting what happens here is that Russia realizes Turkey isn't into playing these games, and Putin will try to avoid such an embarrassing situation by antagonizing the Turks again. So in short, they would have sent a clear message that desperately needed to be sent. That's not an endorsement of every policy Turkey has ever enacted, and I don't see why people are trying to turn it into that. But this is pretty clearly exactly what Turkey should have done. Barbarians only understand force, etc. It should make for an interesting case study if nothing else. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Nov 25, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 00:21
|
|
|
I can see why a person sending death threats via PM would agree with Erdogan.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 00:26
|
|
|
Pimpmust posted:
I'm honestly surprised that they even chose to eject. With the Russian air force is bombing civilian targets, they're going to get no quarter from any non-regime Syrian that finds them. I'm also surprised that the Russians even bothered to send in a search-and-rescue mission after them, even if it failed utterly. I'm pretty sure it's to keep up morale but, face it, if you're a Russian aviator in something like this, it's best to not to touch soil unless you're in allied territory.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 00:38
|
|
pilot: "At least I managed to eject safely after bombing all those helpless turkmen! Are those friendly turks rushing up the hill to greet me when I land? Wait, are they aiming guns at me- why that's not very sporting, I can hardly defend myself like this! Oh, what's this annoying buzzing in my pocket? Oh 
oh dear"
|
Maarek posted:NATO doesn't make much sense post 1991 so its best not to think too hard about why our NATO ally Turkey is helping a terror organization we are at war with. As long as Russia keeps doing what it does now, Nato makes a lot of sense.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 00:39
|
|
|
So I guess Russia is going to start bombing the holy hell out of the Turkish border area now right? Which will probably end up getting another plane shot down....
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 00:39
|
|
|
Charliegrs posted:So I guess Russia is going to start bombing the holy hell out of the Turkish border area now right? Which will probably end up getting another plane shot down.... It's better than some of Russia's other options. They could always escalate their support to Assad by transfering some chemical weapons to him; they could also declare unilateral recognition of a Kurdish states whose borders encompass all of Turkish territory which borders with Syria.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 00:48
|
|
|
Russia's flown close to the sun for a while now, in my eyes since Georgia 2008. I feel like this jet downing is significant in that it's the first time a country has spit back in Russia's eye and this must be rather unexpected for Poutine. The question now is whether Russia is going to keep provoking Turkey and daring a response. Though I'm curious how much more of this story is going to go out, and how much Russia decides to respect Erdogan's sudden interest in protecting Syrian Turkmen.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 00:49
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Yeah, its not like we've had any cases of mistaken targets this year, like bombing a Doctors Without Borders hospital or anything... Well that was a couple war crimes that you can't blame on the Russian air force.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 00:54
|
|
|
Three-Phase posted:Fffffff this is really stepping it up a notch from just shooting down the plane. I just recently heard that they also downed a rescue helicopter so they are absolutely not screwing around. Turkey shot down the plane. Turkmen militias in Syria killed the pilots and TOWed a damaged helicopter on the ground.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 00:54
|
|
|
Oh yeah, mostly unrelated to the Russian plane, here's a TOW destroying a stationary Russian helicopter on the ground (nobody was inside): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IschF-ihjS0 Russia is just getting kicked in the balls all over the place in Syria today.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 00:55
|
|
|
Volkerball posted:While I'm not a fan of Erdogan, there's a bit more context to it than that, given Putin's version of imperialism over the last several years. Russia is very much into taking a mile when given an inch, and abusing agreements to benefit themselves. As an example, look at the recent chemical deal, where they were able to prevent the regime from being held responsible, make war against the regime unpalatable, and allow the regime to only give up whatever chemical weapons it felt like giving up. That's the Russia you get on the diplomatic front. Were Turkey to play the games that the US plays, Russia would just continue to ignore their role in breaching Turkish borders, while lying about it to cover their asses. Turkey adopted a different strategy where instead of attempting to negotiate with the kid who took their lunch money, they punched him in the mouth. They drew a red line, and they stuck by it. I tend to think that's the best way to address someone like Putin, and that's why I think it was the right call. I'm betting what happens here is that Russia realizes Turkey isn't into playing these games, and Putin will try to avoid such an embarrassing situation by antagonizing the Turks again. So in short, they would have sent a clear message that desperately needed to be sent. That's not an endorsement of every policy Turkey has ever enacted, and I don't see why people are trying to turn it into that. But this is pretty clearly exactly what Turkey should have done. Barbarians only understand force, etc. It should make for an interesting case study if nothing else. this. erdogan is a piece of poo poo, but he or at least the military probaly made the right call. if they had done nothing russia would have just kept pushing and pushing. as lovely as it is, putin needed his nose bloodied publicaly after all the bullshit he has pulled in ukraine and syria. DeliciousPatriotism posted:Russia's flown close to the sun for a while now, in my eyes since Georgia 2008. I feel like this jet downing is significant in that it's the first time a country has spit back in Russia's eye and this must be rather unexpected for Poutine.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 01:22
|
|
|
Bad CSAR It was reported that one Marine died during the rescue operation. Does the VVS not have Pararescuemen- i.e. designated air rescue units?
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 01:38
|
|
|
fade5 posted:Oh yeah, mostly unrelated to the Russian plane, here's a TOW destroying a stationary Russian helicopter on the ground (nobody was inside): I'm going to embarrass myself here. I'd heard of wire-guided missiles of course, but I never imagined they were actually using actual wires.  I guess I'd never given it much thought, but if I had, I probably assumed 'wire' was W.I.R.E. or something (w...? Infra-Red e...?). Or that the 'wire' was some sort of antenna?  Nope. The missile is actually unraveling wire after itself as it travels, and stays connected to the launcher. Seems amusingly primitive. I've seen the TOW videos before, and assumed they were being steered with some sort of laser pointer or fancy military 'bluetooth' or whatever.I guess that's enough of my ignorance of modern weapon systems. EDIT: Why doesn't the superhot missile exhaust melt/shred the wire? 
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 01:46
|
|
|
You shouldn't be kicking yourself over anachronistic WW2 military technology.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 01:49
|
|
|
Fintilgin posted:I'm going to embarrass myself here. I'd heard of wire-guided missiles of course, but I never imagined they were actually using actual wires. Yeah don't feel bad, it's sorta strange and doesn't make a lot of sense. Some naval torpedoes have the same system, too. It seems like it'd be unreliable and that the rocket flame would gently caress up the wire, but w/e.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 01:54
|
|
|
kalstrams posted:You shouldn't be kicking yourself over anachronistic WW2 military technology. I'm actually usually sort of delighted when I learn something completely new that blows my mind. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 01:54
|
|
|
Dapper_Swindler posted:this. erdogan is a piece of poo poo, but he or at least the military probaly made the right call. if they had done nothing russia would have just kept pushing and pushing. as lovely as it is, putin needed his nose bloodied publicaly after all the bullshit he has pulled in ukraine and syria. The whole thing is loving comical. There was nothing stopping Putin from negotiating terms with Turkey, NATO et al at the beginning of this Russian cluster gently caress. Putin wants to be a relevant world military power but doesn't want to do the simplest thing ever; talking to the players in the game.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 01:56
|
|
|
Fintilgin posted:I'm going to embarrass myself here. I'd heard of wire-guided missiles of course, but I never imagined they were actually using actual wires. Supposedly at camp pendleton (just north of San Diego) there have been a few people that have crossed the boarder and ended up running into the marine TOW missile range where a metric gently caress-ton of very fine wire from spent missiles just sits around. It doesn't end well.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 01:57
|
|
|
Figured this thread would be the best to ask--anyone have maps of ISIS/Daesh territory that show its growth and recession? Trying to find that clear ones from Google is a bit trying. Thanks!
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 02:01
|
|
|
Dusty Baker 2 posted:Yeah don't feel bad, it's sorta strange and doesn't make a lot of sense. Some naval torpedoes have the same system, too. It seems like it'd be unreliable and that the rocket flame would gently caress up the wire, but w/e. Oberleutnant posted:A pre-programmed flightplan is not "advanced" - it is a mature, stable and standard feature on military aircraft and has been since at least the 1980s - the F-16 used to load them by cassette tape, and they are visually displayed on the MFD (a feature which the Su-24 was upgraded to carry some years ago). It looks something like this: Maybe, maybe not: Vahakyla posted:Someone asked about the Fencer GPS-devices. Fencer is not the only thing that has em. I also remember seeing an article about a massive shipment provided by Garmin to the Russian Air Force with GLONASS/GPS dual functionality. Or so called "GLO-devices" or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 02:03
|
|
|
radical meme posted:The whole thing is loving comical. There was nothing stopping Putin from negotiating terms with Turkey, NATO et al at the beginning of this Russian cluster gently caress. Putin wants to be a relevant world military power but doesn't want to do the simplest thing ever; talking to the players in the game. Putin doesnt think he needs too. He thinks Russia is more powerful and more presence on the world stage then it actually does. the only reasons he has international power at all is because he has a perm seat on the UN security council and he has a geographically massive country. if he was as powerful as he acts. he woudnt be pissing away Russian lives and rubles for some dickhead dictator who can't hold his country together. its why he is pissing away even more lives in a ghost war that doesn't exist in the Ukraine for a bunch of drunk facist rebels. its why he is probably going to get in a pissing match with one of the shittier nato countries instead of just talking them down. because if he doesn't he appears weak and he will be hosed.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 02:04
|
|
|
Oh man I hate it when the suction cup on mine gives out while your driving and you gotta hunt around on the floor looking for it trying not to die, can you imagine doing that in that jet haha.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 02:07
|
|
|
PITT posted:Oh man I hate it when the suction cup on mine gives out while your driving and you gotta hunt around on the floor looking for it trying not to die, can you imagine doing that in that jet haha.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 02:09
|
|
|
OAquinas posted:Figured this thread would be the best to ask--anyone have maps of ISIS/Daesh territory that show its growth and recession? Trying to find that clear ones from Google is a bit trying. isis.liveuamap.com, and in the top-left corner you can dial the date back. Not sure how far back they started their map tho, and it's not always the most accurate but it's a good starting place 
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 02:11
|
|
|
From Reuters: @Reuters: BREAKING: U.S. believes Russian jet exploded in Syrian airspace: official https://twitter.com/reuters/status/669317915091578880 Haven't seen anything else written up
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 02:13
|
|
|
is that a new jet explosion, or the US stance on the earlier one? life sure is confusing with all these exploding planes.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 02:15
|
|
|
fonixx posted:From Reuters: Doesn't matter, it was launched while the plane was in turkey. It just out ran it just until Syria.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 02:15
|
|
|
PITT posted:Oh man I hate it when the suction cup on mine gives out while your driving and you gotta hunt around on the floor looking for it trying not to die, can you imagine doing that in that jet haha.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 02:16
|
|
|
Young Freud posted:I'm honestly surprised that they even chose to eject. With the Russian air force is bombing civilian targets, they're going to get no quarter from any non-regime Syrian that finds them. If you find either of these things surprising you might want to read... anything about air combat. Pilots both eject, and get rescued! Crazy I know.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 02:19
|
|
|
fonixx posted:From Reuters: E: Oh wait, they're saying/implying the missile hit came when the Russian plane was (back) in Syrian airspace, not that the plane "exploded" from something other than being hit by Turkish missiles.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 02:19
|
|
|
http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/2430000.wav Recording of warnings that was apparently intercepted by the U.S.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 02:20
|
|
|
sparatuvs posted:Doesn't matter, it was launched while the plane was in turkey. It just out ran it just until Syria. I'm curious as to if there is legal precedent for this sort of question. Wait, how do you know it was launched while the plane was over Turkey?
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 02:21
|
|
|
That's what the NATO radar says.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 02:23
|
|
|
Dapper_Swindler posted:Putin doesnt think he needs too. He thinks Russia is more powerful and more presence on the world stage then it actually does. the only reasons he has international power at all is because he has a perm seat on the UN security council and he has a geographically massive country. if he was as powerful as he acts. he woudnt be pissing away Russian lives and rubles for some dickhead dictator who can't hold his country together. its why he is pissing away even more lives in a ghost war that doesn't exist in the Ukraine for a bunch of drunk facist rebels. its why he is probably going to get in a pissing match with one of the shittier nato countries instead of just talking them down. because if he doesn't he appears weak and he will be hosed. He's not pissing away lives for some tinpot dictator; he's securing Russian access to the mediteranian while also making a whole lotta sales to an authoritarian despot.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 02:24
|
|
|
sparatuvs posted:Doesn't matter, it was launched while the plane was in turkey. It just out ran it just until Syria. Do we know that, though? I wouldn't put it past an overeager fighter jocky to engage while over foreign territory and claim that he launched from his side of the border.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 02:25
|
|
|
Russian MoD is sending their cruiser Moscow to Latakia shores. Per their statement, its antiaircraft systems are going to eliminate all threats to Russian aircraft.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 02:28
|
|
|
Watch a Turkish despot start another war
My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Nov 25, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 02:29
|
|
|
Why is the Bosporus so important? I didn't think Russia had much of anything in the Black Sea.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 02:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 01:11 |
|
|
sparatuvs posted:That's what the NATO radar says. I assume you mean the Turkish one posted in this thread? If other countries have access to this same system that'd be interesting and make me believe it a lot more. e: ^^^^ Russia has a very important port in Crimea (a big part of the reason it was annexed). St Petersburg gets iced the gently caress up in the winter, and anyway is a long distance from most stuff. The Black Sea has access right into the Med and the Suez Canal isn't far away. It has been extremely important for centuries. After the Ottoman Empire fell, I think the allies had a deal with Russia as part of Sykes Picot that Russia would get Constantinople. Closing the strait to Russia's civilian or military ships has been a Big Deal for a long time. Count Roland fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Nov 25, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2015 02:30
|
|