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So in Fatherland, the allies won the Pacific but lost Europe? And also the Red Army managed to take Taiwan?
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Nov 24, 2015 18:01
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Bloodnose posted:So in Fatherland, the allies won the Pacific but lost Europe? And also the Red Army managed to take Taiwan? Yes, no. That is pink China not red Soviet. The story's something about D-Day failing and the US pulling out in Europe.
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Nov 24, 2015 18:19
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Bloodnose posted:So in Fatherland, the allies won the Pacific but lost Europe? And also the Red Army managed to take Taiwan? Yes. Essentially, the Nazis were able to consolidate power in Europe and Barbarossa mostly succeeded, and the British gave up rather than attempt to keep fighting on (I think the Irish went full in with the Nazis too, posing a credible threat of invasion from multiple directions). However the Nazis were unable to support the Japanese war effort because America remained far and away the most economically and militarily powerful state. Effectively, America controls the seas by naval power outside the North/Baltic/Mediterranean seas, though there was a peace treaty with Nazi Germany so it's not "currently" being used to harass Axis holdings outside Europe proper. And part of this altered war focus towards the Pacific is why in the Fatherland timeline, the Americans got all of Korea, no joint-Soviet occupation, and so no North/South split. Also Taiwan is successfully taken by the Chinese Red Army because the Nationalists were getting less support during and after the war, so they never evacuate to Taiwan and make it a fortress.
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Nov 24, 2015 18:24
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Riso posted:As much stuff as possible was kept from the population historically and only known by a few. I don't see why that should change. They could have made a subplot about uncovering all the nasty stuff with the help of the films but that opportunity was wasted!
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Nov 24, 2015 18:37
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icantfindaname posted:how heavily does that book lean towards the nerd scifi right-libertarian stuff? i have a feeling i know the answer to this question, somehow You're spot on - good job seeing through all that MRA Philip K. Dick bullshit. [/sarcasm] -- a pipe smoking dog posted:Is not really an alternate history book though, it more a book about how we interact with history and how we classify things as real or fake. Yeah, I mean, PKD wasn't really trying to build out a plausible alternate history. In fact, one of the themes of the book is it is impossible to make a plausible alternate history - remember the sequence of events in The Grasshopper Lies Heavy? MITHC ruminates on the experience of colonialism, hegemony, authenticity and history, memory, imagines an encounter between hegemonic nazism and hegemonic taoism, reality as a veil for a deeper reality, crazy gnostic themes. I still don't know quite what to make of all of it. I don't know how the TV show is going to handle any of the mystical reality-bending components next season. It's pretty different from the book, but at least it hasn't been a USA, freedom hoo-rah circle-jerk. It does suggest, though, that we thankfully do not live in the worst of all possible worlds. I thought Fatherland had a reasonably plausible Nazi victory scenario for alt-history: an eventual grim victory in the east with Lebensraum colonization efforts hampered by reluctance to move out to some remote steppe shithole known for murderous partisan activity. The cold war with the USA made sense since obviously Nazi Germany would never have been able to invade, let alone conquer and occupy the US. Funny that Japan was hosed even in an optimal axis victory scenario. Delthalaz fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Nov 25, 2015 |
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Nov 25, 2015 01:02
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Is there an alternate history thing where Hitler lasts until like the 70s and then dies, ala Franco?
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Nov 25, 2015 01:56
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Presence_of_Mine_Enemies Harry Turtledove book set in a Nazi World of modern times. IIRC, there are sections where certain characters pine for the good ol days of the Original Fuhrer.
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Nov 25, 2015 02:21
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I can't see that happening with his historical views on militarism and expansion, it was almost destined to be a burnout. The best case for that would be if the Strasser brothers had somehow managed to maintain control of the party as a nationalist anti-Marxist organ that didn't want to continually grab more territory. Then Gregor dies and appoints Otto as his successor, who gets his car blown over a building by antifa/separatists and then ??? I can't see a resurgent monarchy like in Spain following that, so I have no idea what happens after then.
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Nov 25, 2015 02:23
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computer parts posted:Is there an alternate history thing where Hitler lasts until like the 70s and then dies, ala Franco? Well in Fatherland, it's implied that Hitler is ailling for some time by the 1964 setting, so he'd probably just make it into the 70s as that timeline goes on. Of course, the other high up Nazis have been running the show for a while (but they're all also starting to really show their age, it's implied that the Nazi edifice might not really stick around long after they're all out).
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Nov 25, 2015 03:50
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Nov 25, 2015 10:35
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I know violating other countries' air spaces is a big no-no, but seventeen seconds? Jesus Christ, cool your jets Turkey. Hasn't Russia been violating British airspace all year? Or is that over international waters? A Buttery Pastry posted:By the point the story takes place, the Nazis would have been in power for a long time. At that point, what was open secrets two decades ago could easily have shifted the public perception of the limits of what can be publicly acknowledged, and what was once just useful propaganda can inform the next generation of politicians to such a degree that they do not realize that the propaganda was never to be taken seriously by the leadership itself. When you then consider that the Nazis started off believing a lot of their own propaganda, I could see the next generation being openly and publicly proud of their genocidal violence. I consider myself reasonably well versed in history but I've never been able to get a solid answer about whether or not the German public knew what was going on in the death camps.
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Nov 25, 2015 10:42
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freebooter posted:I consider myself reasonably well versed in history but I've never been able to get a solid answer about whether or not the German public knew what was going on in the death camps. Many people had to know if they did the math, especially if they lived next to a camp or worked in transportation. On the other hand the Nazis made sure to do it as covert as possible, building the camps in forests and behind hills to avoid bystanders, so it was easy for people to ignore it. So yeah, a large portion of the population most likely knew what was going on, but many also didn't.
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Nov 25, 2015 10:57
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freebooter posted:I know violating other countries' air spaces is a big no-no, but seventeen seconds? Jesus Christ, cool your jets Turkey. Just international waters I think. But the planes in question may have had nukes on board. We'd never actually shoot anyone down anyway because we're not actually able to fight a proper war. No planes on our one carrier, no maritime patrol aircraft, no money. We're hosed if someone actually started something.
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Nov 25, 2015 10:58
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Regarde Aduck posted:Just international waters I think. But the planes in question may have had nukes on board. We'd never actually shoot anyone down anyway because we're not actually able to fight a proper war. No planes on our one carrier, no maritime patrol aircraft, no money. We're hosed if someone actually started something. Well that's not true in the slightest, but yeah, I'd like to hope the UK might be a bit less trigger-happy than Turkey. Honj Steak posted:Many people had to know if they did the math, especially if they lived next to a camp or worked in transportation. On the other hand the Nazis made sure to do it as covert as possible, building the camps in forests and behind hills to avoid bystanders, so it was easy for people to ignore it. So yeah, a large portion of the population most likely knew what was going on, but many also didn't. Yeah, I always thought "surely people would see trains going in and not coming out," but then you'd have to live right near the camps, and I suppose part of the point of a totalitarian state is that information is easily suppressed. But I have to wonder if Germans really would have cared if they'd known. If you've accepted that Jews are rats, vermin, scum who are ruining the nation and deserve to be literally rounded up into camps - is killing them really that much of a stretch? On the other hand it was only recently that I learned about how the Nazis initially had plans to resettle them in Madagascar and all that stuff. And how the Final Solution conference had limited attendees. But then I always think of that line from The Reader, as well - "Everybody in this country knew what was happening, and nobody did anything about it." And also that anti-Semitism was much more of a mainstream view before the Holocaust. edit - also summary executions, beatings to death etc. of Jews in the street were not uncommon, were they? So surely the man on the street must have figured out what was going on in the camps, too.
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Nov 25, 2015 11:04
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freebooter posted:But I have to wonder if Germans really would have cared if they'd known. If you've accepted that Jews are rats, vermin, scum who are ruining the nation and deserve to be literally rounded up into camps - is killing them really that much of a stretch?
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Nov 25, 2015 11:10
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Guavanaut posted:Yeah, look at the island detention camps for immigrants in Australia. I bet they could start off like Dachau, have a few "they tried to escape so we had to shoot them" incidents, then you could ramp it up to full scale processing within 18 months and half of the country would be apathetic or cheering. Auspol crosspost:
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Nov 25, 2015 11:16
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Riso posted:As much stuff as possible was kept from the population historically and only known by a few. I don't see why that should change. They could have made a subplot about uncovering all the nasty stuff with the help of the films but that opportunity was wasted! lmao like anybody is going to trust riso, of all posters, on nazi germany, of all topics
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Nov 25, 2015 11:24
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 screenshot from an isis video could someone color those on a map
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Nov 25, 2015 12:00
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Hogge Wild posted:
Wait, does that say just 'Bosnia-and' under the Bosnian flag? Also: nice of them that they recognize Kosovo.
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Nov 25, 2015 12:03
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EricBauman posted:Wait, does that say just 'Bosnia-and' under the Bosnian flag? i think so, yes
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Nov 25, 2015 12:06
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The German Wikipedia has a fairly in-depth article about how much the average German knew about what was going on. To keep it short: in the first few months the SA opened up a number of "wild" camps, but most of the prisoners there got released after a while, often publicly as a show of how merciful the new regime was. The second stage of camps was administered by the SS; many of them close to towns and villages so people knew what was going on - but those weren't the extermination camps of later years (yet), mind you! In the first few years some camps even had open house days where visitors could come and look at the camps (which had been thouroughly sanitised of anything untoward by then, of course). Stuff like the aryanisation or the 1938 pogroms couldn't possibly be kept hidden and weren't supposed to be either. There was much talk about large ghettos in the east, or Madagascar or whatever, so people could profit from that while simultaneously not feel too bad about it - Jews were dangerous enemies of state and race, after all, and it was only proper that the Führer would resettle them all somewhere far east where they couldn't do any harm. In later years, the camps within Germany as well were closed to the public, and the SS tried to suppress any information about the many deaths occurring in there. The third stage of camps, when the industrial-scale extermination of millions began, was kept mostly secret from the German population as well. It is no coincidence that all of those camps were built far to the east of where Germans lived. Himmler said as much in 1943 to high-ranking NSDAP officers: "The sentence 'The Jews have to be exterminated' with its few words is easily said, gentlemen. But for those who actually carry it out it is the hardest ad most difficult thing possible. [...] Now you know what is going on, and you keep it to yourself. Maybe it will be possible in much later times to tell the German people more about it. For now it is better, I think, to say that we have done that for our people, have shouldered the responsibility (for a deed, not just an idea) and will take that secret into our graves." It was quite effective, not only concerning the Germans but also their victims as well. The overwhelming majority had no idea what was going to happen to them, there are photos of Hungarian jews sitting peacefully in front of a gas chamber in Auschwitz, completely unaware of what the building's actual purpose was. On the other hand there were many people who knew, or at least had the possibility to know. Most Wehrmacht soldiers knew all too well about the mass executions (often even the gassings) taking place there and passed that information on the their friends and families back home, even though that was strictly forbidden. Franz Josef Strauß, later the prime minister of Bavaria, was a soldier back then and wrote in his autobiography that he personally witnessed several mass shootings. There are some extant diaries from people staying home where it shows quite clearly that there were plenty of rumours circulating about the SS and Wehrmacht murdering civilians and enemy POWs en masse. A leading official of the Auswärtiges Amt (Foreign Office) even wrote "liquidation of Jews in Belgrad" as the reason for a business trip into his deduction documents! Sometimes there were even newspaper articles hinting at what was going on, or Hitler doing so in his speeches. The information flow became so great from 1942 on that the regime cracked down hard on anyone speaking about it. From 1943 on even the antisemitic propaganda was dialled back, because many people started to react negatively against it. When the regime painted the massacre of Katyn as prrof of Soviet barbarism, many Germans openly called it hypocritical as their own government did much worse things in the east. There is the example of a German engineer who despised the regime and tried to gather as much information about the eastern front as he could by listening to the stories of soldiers, cross-referencing German and foreign radio, trying to read between the lines in the papers and so on. Without even having to leave his hometown for it, he correctly deduced what was happening. To sum it up: Many people could have known about what was happening, even though the regime tried to conceal it. Most either ignored it or chose not to believe it. Especially during the later stages of the war knowledge about the holocaust became more and more widespread, and many people expressed their disgust at it - without ever actually doing something against it, though. Many chose to go into denial and remain passive, and when they later told the allies that they "didn't know about it", they may truly have believed that. Contemporary historians think that not a majority, but still a sizeable part of the German population knew about the holocaust. But they remained passive. Out of fear of the regime? Because the war had made them jaded? Because they didn't want to hear about what their sons, husbands, brothers, fathers were doing at the front? Who knows. edit: Oh hey, I chose to not believe that this is the maps thread! 
System Metternich fucked around with this message at 12:30 on Nov 25, 2015 |
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Nov 25, 2015 12:27
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System Metternich posted:To keep it short  Thanks though, good post!
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Nov 25, 2015 13:07
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Hogge Wild posted:
It's basically all of EU + NATO + Arab League + Russia + China. e: Oh and Israel. Because of course.
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Nov 25, 2015 13:11
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the jizz taxi posted:It's basically all of EU + NATO + Arab League + Russia + China. And Bosnia, Iran, Switzerland, Ukraine, FYROM, and Kosovo edit: both Chinas Hogge Wild fucked around with this message at 13:19 on Nov 25, 2015 |
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Nov 25, 2015 13:14
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Thank you - fascinating stuff.System Metternich posted:Contemporary historians think that not a majority, but still a sizeable part of the German population knew about the holocaust. But they remained passive. Out of fear of the regime? Because the war had made them jaded? Because they didn't want to hear about what their sons, husbands, brothers, fathers were doing at the front? Who knows. This is probably the heart of the matter - the most psychologically interesting part, and the part that is most vital to understand for how and why things like this can happen. I believe there's something in human nature that encourages group think. Not everyone, not all of the time - I mean there was the German resistance and so on - but I think most of us, most of the time, choose to go along with things, no matter how bad they might be. Most of us go with the flow, vote with the tribe, don't rock the boat. To take the Australian refugee camp example from above - and there have been serious allegations of torture, including waterboarding, in these camps - I don't think it's a situation most Australians would have found palatable 20 years ago. But we've been slowly lowered into it, with a government and a media pushing us to think a certain way, and beyond a hard core of 10-20% of people who are vocally against it, most Australians couldn't care less. These are not bad people - these are my friends and family and people whom I've seen do wonderful, kind, charitable things - but there is something fundamentally genetic in the human brain which makes it susceptible to herd behaviour. Or back to the Holocaust, and since this is the map thread:  I can't find it now but I read a short article a while ago about the Rescue of the Danish Jews, talking about how the really interesting thing was not that so many Danes worked together to make it happen (although of course that's commendable) but that so many Werhmacht troops chose to turn a blind eye to it; something about how the commanders and officers of the occupying Germans in Denmark, for whatever reason, were less gung-ho about the anti-Semitism than in other occupied countries, and how this filtered down through the ranks and nudged the ordinary rank and file into behaving that way too. It may not have been quite true or correct, but it was fascinating.
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Nov 25, 2015 13:15
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Denmark looks really weird just slapped on a map with no Germany
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Nov 25, 2015 13:36
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MikeCrotch posted:Denmark looks really weird just slapped on a map with no Germany That's only a part of Denmark. And I don't mean that in the Greenland sense.
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Nov 25, 2015 14:02
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Hogge Wild posted:
"Bosnia And" "Taiwan" Noted global military powerhouses Malta and Luxembourg.
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Nov 25, 2015 14:05
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MikeCrotch posted:Denmark looks really weird just slapped on a map with no Germany It looks weird missing Jutland.
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Nov 25, 2015 14:13
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Honj Steak posted:
Well, at least I can say that I honestly tried (and failed) 
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Nov 25, 2015 15:52
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Hogge Wild posted:
the politically loaded part is including turkey in the coalition opposed to isis.
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Nov 25, 2015 16:16
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a pipe smoking dog posted:the politically loaded part is including turkey in the coalition opposed to isis. And Saudi Arabia.
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Nov 25, 2015 16:32
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freebooter posted:I can't find it now but I read a short article a while ago about the Rescue of the Danish Jews, talking about how the really interesting thing was not that so many Danes worked together to make it happen (although of course that's commendable) but that so many Werhmacht troops chose to turn a blind eye to it; something about how the commanders and officers of the occupying Germans in Denmark, for whatever reason, were less gung-ho about the anti-Semitism than in other occupied countries, and how this filtered down through the ranks and nudged the ordinary rank and file into behaving that way too. It may not have been quite true or correct, but it was fascinating. Some time ago I saw a talk from an historian who wanted to find out why the death toll among the Jewish population was so much higher in some countries than it was in others. Apparently it wasn't because of higher degrees of anti-Semitism but because people sooner collaborated with the Nazis if their entire political structures had been destroyed. While the Nazis let countries like Denmark, Belgium and to an extent France function as states with their own administration, corps of diplomats, officials, etc., the entire state (which was already fragile to begin with) was torn down in places like Estonia and Poland. This was deliberate, too, of course: the Nazis' designs on Eastern Europe were every bit as awful as they were on the Jews and Roma. The Slavs were simply next on the list.
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Nov 25, 2015 17:24
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the jizz taxi posted:Some time ago I saw a talk from an historian who wanted to find out why the death toll among the Jewish population was so much higher in some countries than it was in others. Apparently it wasn't because of higher degrees of anti-Semitism but because people sooner collaborated with the Nazis if their entire political structures had been destroyed. While the Nazis let countries like Denmark, Belgium and to an extent France function as states with their own administration, corps of diplomats, officials, etc., the entire state (which was already fragile to begin with) was torn down in places like Estonia and Poland. This was deliberate, too, of course: the Nazis' designs on Eastern Europe were every bit as awful as they were on the Jews and Roma. The Slavs were simply next on the list.
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Nov 25, 2015 17:53
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EricBauman posted:Wait, does that say just 'Bosnia-and' under the Bosnian flag? Ever since Larry left Larry and the Left-Handed, the band has been know as And the Left-Handed. Same thing happened here.
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Nov 25, 2015 18:05
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the jizz taxi posted:Some time ago I saw a talk from an historian who wanted to find out why the death toll among the Jewish population was so much higher in some countries than it was in others. Apparently it wasn't because of higher degrees of anti-Semitism but because people sooner collaborated with the Nazis if their entire political structures had been destroyed. While the Nazis let countries like Denmark, Belgium and to an extent France function as states with their own administration, corps of diplomats, officials, etc., the entire state (which was already fragile to begin with) was torn down in places like Estonia and Poland. This was deliberate, too, of course: the Nazis' designs on Eastern Europe were every bit as awful as they were on the Jews and Roma. The Slavs were simply next on the list. Belgium was under direct military control because of WW1, the other western areas had civil governments. As far as I know former Soviet citizens wasted no time killing Jews because they were more often than not part of the hated communists. Jerry Cotton posted:Ever since Larry left Larry and the Left-Handed, the band has been know as And the Left-Handed. Same thing happened here. The Serbs must have done something.
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Nov 25, 2015 18:17
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freebooter posted:something about how the commanders and officers of the occupying Germans in Denmark, for whatever reason, were less gung-ho about the anti-Semitism than in other occupied countries, and how this filtered down through the ranks and nudged the ordinary rank and file into behaving that way too. It may not have been quite true or correct, but it was fascinating. That reason was the cooperation policy of the Danish government. When Germany invaded Denmark there was brief fighting, but Denmark surrendered after a few hours and accepted the German "peace occupation" under protest. In exchange for this acceptance the Danish government remained in power, the Danish army and navy remained in place (but had to leave Jutland), the territorial integrity of Denmark was upheld, the courts continued to function, the Jewish population was unmolested, etc. The German state apparatus at the time (1933-1945) was quite divided between the Nazi hardliners on one side and the career army officers and civil servants on the other (very broadly speaking). Lots of rivalry going on. In 1943 the Danish cabinet (sort of) resigned because the Germans wanted it to crack down harder on strikes and sabotage. Himmler saw his chance to get the Danish Jews, but was sabotaged by German officers in Denmark who leaked the plan. They leaked it because they didn't want to rock the boat and piss off the Danes. "Why would they have cared what the Danes thought?" one might ask. Well, Denmark was a pretty sweet gig if you were in the German army. Lots of whipped cream and the chance of getting shot was small. Also, from a command perspective the fewer troops allocated to Denmark the better. So why make your own job harder so that rear end in a top hat Himmler can get brownie points with Hitler? On a side note, another outcome of the cooperation policy was that the Danish-German border dating from 1920 remained in place after the occupation began. The German minority north of the border had become heavily nazified during the 1930s. They were extremely excited about returning to the reich. They were just as disappointed when Hitler didn't want a border revision. In fact the 1920 border was the only German border change resulting from Versailles that didn't get revised. The reason for not revising it was that the German leadership didn't want to piss of the Danes (and the other Nordic countries) which would have jeopardized the cooperation policy in the short term and the grand plans for a German-Nordic superstate in the long term. The dotted line at the top is what the German minority wanted: 
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Nov 25, 2015 21:03
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Per posted:In 1943 the Danish cabinet (sort of) resigned because the Germans wanted it to crack down harder on strikes and sabotage. Himmler saw his chance to get the Danish Jews, but was sabotaged by German officers in Denmark who leaked the plan. They leaked it because they didn't want to rock the boat and piss off the Danes. "Why would they have cared what the Danes thought?" one might ask. Well, Denmark was a pretty sweet gig if you were in the German army. Lots of whipped cream and the chance of getting shot was small. Also, from a command perspective the fewer troops allocated to Denmark the better. So why make your own job harder so that rear end in a top hat Himmler can get brownie points with Hitler?
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Nov 25, 2015 21:33
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Out of curiosity, how many Danes joined up with the SS and the like? If you can split that down further in German minority vs non-German minority that'd be great.
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Nov 25, 2015 22:43
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12000 Danes wanted to join the SS, but only 6000 were found to be fit enough. 2000 of them died. Of the 6000, about 2000 belonged to the German minority, although about 500 of them joined the Wehrmacht instead of the SS. Many in the minority felt it was their duty to join to show solidarity with their fellow Germans and to sway the German government to move the border. The minority's leadership, however, wasn't very keen on too many youths joining as it sapped the minority of its demographic strength. They made sure to designate some of its members as vital to the economy and others were enrolled in paramilitary groups such as the Zeitfreiwillige and Selbstschutz. These groups were meant to fight against the Allies if they had invaded Jutland and to protect the minority against attacks from the Danish majority at the end of the war, respectively. The occupying Wehrmacht, however, sometimes had them perform police duties, especially in 1943 when the cabinet resigned. This made them hugely unpopular among the Danes and a large proportion of the minority was prosecuted after the war along with Danes who had helped the Germans.
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Nov 25, 2015 23:06
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