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Cole posted:Never mind, misunderstood the point. Well for instance salad is pretty non-filling too. And a ton of people think it's ok to dump dressing all over it anyway because salad is healthy, right? And the dressing doesn't make it much more filling at all, but oh boy them calories. To be blunt, the proper amount of food to eat to stay a healthy weight doesn't seem that filling to begin with, especially if you eat it spread across multiple meals. Humans just don't need all that much food.
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Nov 25, 2015 17:49
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computer parts posted:Eh, on the other hand it's culturally acceptable to take home half your meal here, while in Europe you get weird looks if that happens. No you don't.
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Nov 25, 2015 17:51
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Cole posted:Never mind, misunderstood the point. Yeah, that's the main issue with fast food or junk food. It's not that the constituent ingredients of the food are objectively unhealthy, it's that the final food product is calorie dense and very easy to overeat. Two McDoubles and a small fries has like 1200 calories and an average person might eat that in a single meal. Eating 1200 calories of chicken breast, brown rice, and broccoli would be difficult to physically impossible for an average person to stuff down in one sitting.
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Nov 25, 2015 17:53
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khwarezm posted:How is mental health effecting things in this case? I loathe the comparison of obesity to addiction. They're both diseases, that's about it. w/r/t mental health I'm referring mainly to cognitive behavioural therapy tailored similar to therapies developed for hoarders, but yes treating the underlying causes such as depression would be helpful as well. SlipUp fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Nov 25, 2015 |
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Nov 25, 2015 17:53
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Most people are going to put sauce on that chicken rice broccoli meal. Normal people.
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Nov 25, 2015 17:54
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Mr. Wookums posted:Why are you dismissing this as just a step, cooking is hugely beneficial regardless of if you feel it's worth the time of a subset of the population. Don't bother responding to me if you aren't going to do me the basic curtsey of reading what I've posted.
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Nov 25, 2015 17:58
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"Being healthy is hard so it's not worth doing." did that sum it up?
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Nov 25, 2015 18:01
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euphronius posted:Most people are going to put sauce on that chicken rice broccoli meal. Typical grilled or baked chicken with some spices and/or a marinade doesn't really have an appreciable amount of added calories. There are also a million different sauces that don't contain a ton of calories. Yeah if you fry the chicken and slather it in mayo you'd blow up the calorie count but that's just one of millions of ways to prepare chicken.
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Nov 25, 2015 18:04
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Right I know. But what do you think normal people do.
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Nov 25, 2015 18:05
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euphronius posted:Right I know. Eat ranch with a side of french fries. I am being 100% serious. I've seen so many people use food just so they wouldnt have to drink ranch from the bottle.
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Nov 25, 2015 18:08
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IMO, as far as the obesity rates go, the only thing we have much evidence for is that obesity comes down to personal choice or lack of information. This seems especially true of the fat acceptance tumblr crowd, just reading a lot of their posts gives you a good idea of the lack of information going around, or more specifically, the lack of wiliness to research. To some people, pretending that everybody else is the problem is just so much easier. I remember reading a tumblr post while back where one of the fat acceptance people described what she ate the previous day in an attempt to prove that she eats just like everyone else, and what she described undoubtedly contained at least twice the calories of what a normal person should be eating. Basically what she ate was nearly two full sized meals for breakfast and lunch, and an entire feast for dinner, plus extra stuff in between. It seemed like a tragic misunderstanding of the concept of "three meals a day". It seems to me that what really gets the already overweight people to get up and really do the metaphorical heavy lifting when it comes to loosing weight is unhappiness with one's own body and/or envy of other people's bodies and/or the general fear of death. If someone doesn't feel any of those things then I don't see how you can get them to do anything, no amount of new government regulations will do anything. There's also a poo poo load of awareness about this out there as is at least for adults, I really don't know what else can be done there. The only real solution I can think of is trying to educate more kids about health so you can get to people early on. From what I understand, a lot kids inherit their eating habits from their parents, hence the steady trend that obesity has, and why you usually don't see healthy parents have obese children. The best we can do is let kids know that they don't have to eat the way their parents do. A[art from that, people get the make their own decisions in life, trying to get around that is pointless and stupid.
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Nov 25, 2015 18:12
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Ervin K posted:If someone doesn't feel any of those things then I don't see how you can get them to do anything, no amount of new government regulations will do anything. Oh there are ways:  Anyway, saying "personal choice" is just a cop-out. It doesn't answer the question is to why so many more people are fat now than a century ago.
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Nov 25, 2015 18:17
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Mr. Wookums posted:"Being healthy is hard so it's not worth doing." Why even bother posting this response? I know you're not this stupid and you know this wasn't my point so what are you trying to gain?
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Nov 25, 2015 18:18
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Series DD Funding posted:Oh there are ways: Because terrible food is way more plentiful than it was a century ago and physical activity has overall gone down with the rise of the internet and video games.
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Nov 25, 2015 18:19
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Cole posted:Because terrible food is way more plentiful than it was a century ago and physical activity has overall gone down with the rise of the internet and video games. Along with jobs becoming more sedentary.
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Nov 25, 2015 18:22
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Series DD Funding posted:
Is this really such a mystery? I'm sure it's been mentioned here a few times already: It's the cheapness and abundance of food, plus all the extra fat and sugar that make it more appealing. We are currently in a situation that none of our ancestors have ever experienced before. If anything our ancestors have learned to hoard food and eat anything they can. The lack of willingness to change yourself however has always been there.
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Nov 25, 2015 18:26
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Cole posted:Because terrible food is way more plentiful than it was a century ago and physical activity has overall gone down with the rise of the internet and video games. Exactly. And while many attempted solutions recognize the problem, they simple nibble around the edges. People are less active because they spend all day at sedentary jobs instead of labor-intensive ones like agriculture. Going back to jobs like that is neither feasible nor desirable, and suggestions like "walk 30 minutes three times per week" barely make a dent. If you aren't active at your job, it takes a lot of dedication to generate the enormous calorie deficits we don't have anymore. When talking about food, there's thousands of one weird tricks out there. They all "work" if and only if they're able to get someone to stop eating so much calorie-dense stuff. It's a literal marshmallow test, and unfortunately it's human nature to fail it.
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Nov 25, 2015 18:34
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Healthier products tend to actually be more expensive in the long haul. Due to it being trendy to eat certain things, it's actually more expensive to get, say, brown rice than white rice. In the UK I can go to virtually any major supermarket and buy a 10kg bag of white rice for about £10, maybe even less if there's a special deal going on. To get a comparable amount of the much more healthy brown rice it would cost much, much more, with prices ranging anywhere from £2 to £4 a kilo Even going to specialist health shops doesn't really help matters, as even though these are places where you're more likely able to buy these in bulk, prices tend to be way more expensive than others. Fetishization and gentrification of "healthy" foods means that they tend to be more expensive, given that the people who buy them have the money to pay that premium, whereas most people would find it hard to do so in a meaningful way.
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Nov 25, 2015 18:46
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A kilo of rice is still a loving giant amount of food though, so even if it's a whole 4 pounds, it's still really, really cheap.
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Nov 25, 2015 18:48
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Ddraig posted:Healthier products tend to actually be more expensive in the long haul. Due to it being trendy to eat certain things, it's actually more expensive to get, say, brown rice than white rice. In the UK I can go to virtually any major supermarket and buy a 10kg bag of white rice for about £10, maybe even less if there's a special deal going on. To get a comparable amount of the much more healthy brown rice it would cost much, much more, with prices ranging anywhere from £2 to £4 a kilo UK might not have them as it's the island of bland but whoknows
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Nov 25, 2015 18:50
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PT6A posted:Are people really going to a proper grocery store, bypassing all the delicious healthy food and shovelling pure poo poo into their cart? The term "healthy food" really" makes no sense. Plenty of obese people prepare their own food out of healthy ingredients, it's the recipe and the amount they eat that's the problem. I'm certain that the people who are fat because they don't have the time to eat anything but fast-food make up a small portion of the obese population, and even then just eating less will solve a big part of the problem.
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Nov 25, 2015 18:52
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Cole posted:Because terrible food is way more plentiful than it was a century ago and physical activity has overall gone down with the rise of the internet and video games. Not terrible food, simply food in general. This is the thing to get: there was tons of "terrible" food that people were eating back a century ago. In fact a lot of the food we eat today ain't much different from what people were eating in 1915 - though sometimes what you eat on a regular basis might have only been a common dish in a wholly different part of the world! Ddraig posted:Even going to specialist health shops doesn't really help matters, as even though these are places where you're more likely able to buy these in bulk, prices tend to be way more expensive than others. "Health" shops are just a scam, plain and simple. Same goes for anything marked organic really. Seperately: Ddraig posted:To get a comparable amount of the much more healthy brown rice it would cost much, much more, with prices ranging anywhere from £2 to £4 a kilo Brown rice is only marginally "better" then white rice, and much of the difference can be made up simply not eating just rice. The extra vitamins and minerals don't do anything to help you lose weight, and the roughly 12% less calories per gram (assuming typical preparation of the plan rice) tends to get balanced out by people eating more of either the brown rice itself, or of other foods. Ervin K posted:The term "healthy food" really" makes no sense. Plenty of obese people prepare their own food out of healthy ingredients, it's the recipe and the amount they eat that's the problem. I'm certain that the people who are fat because they don't have the time to eat anything but fast-food make up a small portion of the obese population, and even then just eating less will solve a big part of the problem. Honestly it's really just the amount. The recipe only really steps in due to the fact that there'll be more food for the "bad" sort of recipe.
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Nov 25, 2015 19:00
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Mr. Wookums posted:Shop at ethnic markets. The UK does have plenty of ethnic markets, but the problem is these are usually relegated to areas where a lot of "ethnics" live so it's usually a considerable distance away from a lot of people. This used to be a lot easier when I lived there, but now it would require a half hour trip to get there, and an even longer trip back where I now have to lug back quite a significant amount of food by hand.
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Nov 25, 2015 19:05
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There are multiple answers to "why are people getting fat" that people have claimed ITT: 1. People are eating some strange new food that makes them fatter. 2. People are eating more food in general. 3. People are eating the same, but their activity level has decreased. All of these factors probably have at least some contribution, so the question is what do you want to do to deal with it? " Personal willpower" is so far the least convincing argument.
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Nov 25, 2015 19:07
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computer parts posted:" Personal willpower" is so far the least convincing argument. And why is that exactly? I'm really curious because it's seems like a perfectly fine argument to me. I mean it's not a magic cure all that will solve all problems but at least it's grounded in reality. What magical solution do you have that will save all these people who apparently have no control over their lives? There seems to be a handful of people in this thread who seem to be absolutely terrified at the idea of personal responsibility and just cant accept that some solution that doesn't involve some massive government intervention is all we have. So please do let me know what you have.
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Nov 25, 2015 19:15
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computer parts posted:There are multiple answers to "why are people getting fat" that people have claimed ITT: It's a very complex situation with multiple variables, some of which may not even be tangentially related to tangentially related aspects most people would consider, and it has no real easy solutions. "Eat less fatty" is a very easy answer that shifts the burden of responsibility for those many variables onto the fat person.
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Nov 25, 2015 19:15
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Other than changing how food is advertised, packaged and priced I don't think there is much of an answer other than willpower.
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Nov 25, 2015 19:16
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computer parts posted:There are multiple answers to "why are people getting fat" that people have claimed ITT: Some of it is the proportions of what foods are available. Calorically dense, non-satiating foods like oreos could've been made by someone in the 19th century, but the price would've been too high for most people. Nowadays they're cheap and plentiful. People still eat foods high in protein and fiber (which are important to satiation), but nowadays the salad is drowning in oil, the burger is on a highly sweetened white bread bun, etc. Ervin K posted:And why is that exactly? I'm really curious because it's seems like a perfectly fine argument to me. I mean it's not a magic cure all that will solve all problems but at least it's grounded in reality. What magical solution do you have that will save all these people who apparently have no control over their lives? There seems to be a handful of people in this thread who seem to be absolutely terrified at the idea of personal responsibility and just cant accept that some solution that doesn't involve some massive government intervention is all we have. So please do let me know what you have. In order for it to be an answer to the question "why do people get fat?", willpower would have had to change in some way over the past century, which is doubtful.
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Nov 25, 2015 19:16
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Ervin K posted:And why is that exactly? I'm really curious because it's seems like a perfectly fine argument to me. I mean it's not a magic cure all that will solve all problems but at least it's grounded in reality. Because in most other situations "personal responsibility" will brand you as a Libertarian. It's kind of hard to see why it wouldn't here, especially since this is an issue that's highly correlated with poverty. (Yes, I mean poverty within that particular nation-state, not that poorer countries are more likely to be obese when in fact the opposite is true)
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Nov 25, 2015 19:17
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Cole posted:Other than changing how food is advertised, packaged and priced I don't think there is much of an answer other than willpower. The only part of that that can really work is price... but price changes significant enough to really change behavior have very high risks of causing starvation and driving people to steal to survive. And you can stop and think about things like how soda prices have grown a bit faster than inflation for single person sodas - eg a 20 ounce bottle of coke in a vending machine back in 1995 cost $1 usually, these days the same 20 ounce bottle in a vending machine often costs $2. But the value of $1 in 1995 money is only $1.56 in today's money. fishmech fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Nov 25, 2015 |
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Nov 25, 2015 19:19
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Ervin K posted:And why is that exactly? I'm really curious because it's seems like a perfectly fine argument to me. I mean it's not a magic cure all that will solve all problems but at least it's grounded in reality. What magical solution do you have that will save all these people who apparently have no control over their lives? There seems to be a handful of people in this thread who seem to be absolutely terrified at the idea of personal responsibility and just cant accept that some solution that doesn't involve some massive government intervention is all we have. So please do let me know what you have. Are more than a third of people lacking personal willpower, has personal willpower diminished over the last fifty years and why continue to make personal willpower the main way to sort this out when its made absolutely no impact on obesity rates anywhere in the world in last thirty years?
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Nov 25, 2015 19:21
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Ervin K posted:And why is that exactly? I'm really curious because it's seems like a perfectly fine argument to me. I mean it's not a magic cure all that will solve all problems but at least it's grounded in reality. What magical solution do you have that will save all these people who apparently have no control over their lives? There seems to be a handful of people in this thread who seem to be absolutely terrified at the idea of personal responsibility and just cant accept that some solution that doesn't involve some massive government intervention is all we have. So please do let me know what you have. The problem is that you can't collectively increase the willpower of an entire population of people. People on average put the same amount of effort into diet and exercise as they always have, basically gently caress all, but the environment around them now happens to be very conducive to obesity. You can't expect them to collectively work harder to counteract that environment, the only solution is to change the environment.
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Nov 25, 2015 19:22
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fishmech posted:The only part of that that can really work is price... but price changes significant enough to really change behavior have very high risks of causing starvation and driving people to steal to survive. I see $1.50 in my area (PNW) for what it's worth.
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Nov 25, 2015 19:24
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$1.25 to $1.50 in St. Louis but eh. I would say a media campaign but well, that hasn't exactly worked out well with all the signal noise. People are just overloaded with so much information that the simple things like 'eat less/better, exercise more' get flooded out by magic shakes and pills and stupid overpriced hunks of plastic. I'd think you have to reach a bit closer and try to get people active and eating better one step at a time. Start with schools, perhaps encourage a cooking class or more physical activity during school hours. But where does the money or time come for it?
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Nov 25, 2015 19:33
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Ddraig posted:It's a very complex situation with multiple variables, some of which may not even be tangentially related to tangentially related aspects most people would consider, and it has no real easy solutions. Uh. It is an obese persons responsibility to make sure they are not obese. It is not anyone else's.
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Nov 25, 2015 19:33
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Obese adults I should say. Obese kids are the parents fault.
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Nov 25, 2015 19:34
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Stanos posted:$1.25 to $1.50 in St. Louis but eh. I'd imagine you probably didn't have to pay the full $1 we had in the machines where I lived back 20 years ago then too. We had a great cooking class in my high school and most of the students took it. But uh, there's pretty much no difference in prevalence of being fat among those who took the class versus those who didn't. Both judging from facebook and from the 5 year reunion. Don't really expect to see change at the 10 year reunion next year either. Honestly though, again, most people already know they should be eating less, they just don't get around to executing on that. Yeah many of them take an exercise fad or a particular diet fad (and as an aside, "going gluten free" as a diet fad is the worst for this at the moment) as their excuse to not actually cut down, but people who ignore them also don't cut down.
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Nov 25, 2015 19:41
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Series DD Funding posted:
Why do you think that? computer parts posted:Because in most other situations "personal responsibility" will brand you as a Libertarian. khwarezm posted:Are more than a third of people lacking personal willpower, has personal willpower diminished over the last fifty years and why continue to make personal willpower the main way to sort this out when its made absolutely no impact on obesity rates anywhere in the world in last thirty years? MaxxBot posted:the only solution is to change the environment.
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Nov 25, 2015 19:47
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Ervin K posted:Why do you think that? What would have caused willpower to change then?
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Nov 25, 2015 19:48
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Series DD Funding posted:What would have caused willpower to change then? I mean why do you think it has changed at all. I have no reason to believe people have ever been good at making drastic changes to their lifestyle when more comfortable alternatives are present. euphronius posted:Culture has changed through various methods and has created a nation of emotional children with little maturity. Ervin K fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Nov 25, 2015 |
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Nov 25, 2015 19:49
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