|
rovert posted:If he was racist I wouldn't associate with him end of story. You're a parody of yourself EDIT: I mean I'm not going to police your relationships, you're a stranger to me so I don't give a gently caress if you're friendly with racists or not, but don't pretend that you associating with him is the benchmark we should judge racism against rather than, you know, his long history of saying or approvingly quoting lowkey racist bullshit
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 11:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 08:04 |
|
|
I made the same point the other day that wrestling is not only an incredibly scummy real-life business, but also a fictional world that fundamentally operates on a morally repugnant "might makes right" philosophy, and as such is kind of inherently offensive, and it seems a little funny to complain about social justice issues in that context. But I also made the caveat that, as a white, straight, cis male, it's really easy for me to say that, as none of the horrible portrayals of minority groups really affect me on a personal level. That capability for self-awareness, self-reflection and acknowledgement of one's own privilege is what separates a decent person from a Joe Lanza.
Spermgod fucked around with this message at 11:25 on Nov 26, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 11:21
|
|
|
Alain Post posted:from the Stone Cold podcast, what chants need to die more, "What", or "this is awesome" The What!?! chant is awesome when a wrestler uses it or is good enough to negate it/turn it around - it engages the crowd either from a babyface or heel standpoint and builds the atmosphere of the show. The trouble is that most of the wrestlers nowadays have had any improv skills or the ability (or permission) to interact burned out of them by the relentless scripting/control freak nature of the show. If the crowd needs to entertain themselves with WHAT!?! chants then it means the show isn't doing a good enough job of entertaining them, and if the chant didn't exist then they'd just be chanting something else/doing a wave/sitting bored on their hands doing nothing. It's a symptom, not the disease.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 11:21
|
|
|
Jerusalem posted:If the crowd needs to entertain themselves with WHAT!?! chants then it means the show isn't doing a good enough job of entertaining them, and if the chant didn't exist then they'd just be chanting something else/doing a wave/sitting bored on their hands doing nothing. It's a symptom, not the disease. what's funny is that Stone Cold/Wade are saying the same thing about the "this is awesome" chants, that if the crowd is doing that because they like the workrate/finisher kickouts/flippy moves, or whatever, it's because the wrestlers aren't telling a good-enough story to get them emotionally involved in the match
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 11:23
|
|
|
rovert posted:Actually there's different readings of this season. But that's a different topic. And all the non-wrestling stuff I mentioned?
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 11:29
|
|
|
I think it's important to view the ways different media (wrestling included) fail on a sociocultural level because it helps us understand the ways that people parse and justify those terrible things so we can learn. There is something about wrestling in that I keep watching even though it constantly disappoints me in ways like that and I feel like fans are becoming more capable of introspection by seeing that poo poo unleaded and aagh what the gently caress am I doing arguing with someone who likes South Park.
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 11:35
|
|
|
I like wrestling even when it's offensive, I mean gently caress my avatar on here is a pic of a massively racist angle, and yeah I wish it was a whole lot better better about race and gender and all the rest of it. But for me there's a difference between a company or an industry that has lots of bigoted aspects and a particular individual being outright bigoted themselves. Maybe that's a justification I came up with to make myself feel better, I dunno, but this conversation was originally less about wrestling as a whole and more about one particular shithead
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 11:38
|
|
|
i mean there's currently very little between the super-popular act New Day and everyone's favorite racist dancing black man gimmick.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 11:39
|
|
|
TomWaitsForNoMan posted:You're a parody of yourself That's a whole lot of reading into what I said there, Chief. What I said is pretty clearly stated. Doesn't need a from out of nowhere in interpretation. Zero clue on how I being a parody either. Spermgod posted:I made the same point the other day that wrestling is not only an incredibly scummy real-life business, but also a fictional world that fundamentally operates on a morally repugnant "might makes right" philosophy, and as such is kind of inherently offensive, and it seems a little funny to complain about social justice issues in that context. But I also made the caveat that, as a white, straight, cis male, it's really easy for me to say that, as none of the horrible portrayals of minority groups really affect me on a personal level. That capability for self-awareness, self-reflection and acknowledgement of one's own privilege is what separates a decent person from a Joe Lanza. These posts get weirder. Joe sticks up for Ru Gunn something fierce when she gets attacked by sexist knuckle draggers. You seem to desperately want him to be someone that he really isn't from my experience at least. Electric Lady posted:I think it's important to view the ways different media (wrestling included) fail on a sociocultural level because it helps us understand the ways that people parse and justify those terrible things so we can learn. Ru Gunn's Smackdown review on Voices of Wrestling does a great job covering this aspect of Wrestling. As does her other reviews when she does them.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 11:40
|
|
|
Electric Lady posted:I think it's important to view the ways different media (wrestling included) fail on a sociocultural level because it helps us understand the ways that people parse and justify those terrible things so we can learn. That's a good point but I think a lot of people come at it from the angle of "fix these things, wrestling" and I kind of don't want them to be fixed. I enjoy the fact that wrestling is the last holdout of poor taste, not because of any stupid rear end anti-PC/SJW crusader bullshit but because it's loving wrestling and a huge part of the fun of it is the voyeuristic thrill of laughing at these scumbag carnies doing scumbag carny things.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 11:41
|
|
|
TomWaitsForNoMan posted:I like wrestling even when it's offensive, I mean gently caress my avatar on here is a pic of a massively racist angle, and yeah I wish it was a whole lot better better about race and gender and all the rest of it. But for me there's a difference between a company or an industry that has lots of bigoted aspects and a particular individual being outright bigoted themselves. Maybe that's a justification I came up with to make myself feel better, I dunno, but this conversation was originally less about wrestling as a whole and more about one particular shithead Joe isn't a bigot though he doesn't censor his writers or goes after people like Uproxx crew has in the past.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 11:42
|
|
|
rovert posted:You don't have to be conservative or shithead to realise or feel that how "skeleton warriors" act and impose their will on people is bullying/cyberbullying, censorship, impractical to real life etc. The whole season of South Park has been about sending that up. It is ripe for parody as they don't pick their battles and have no sense of proportion. jesus loving christ
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 11:44
|
|
|
I can guarantee you that Ru Gunn thinks the Joe tweet that started this discussion was stupid as gently caress if that means anything to you.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 11:44
|
|
|
honestly Stroud/Uproxx crew really have no leg to stand on after their approach to the whole "Give divas a chance" thing in the past was apparently to be huge shitheels to the women who weren't part of the NXT group of approved good workers. seriously I love it when people have pretenses of being nice progressive wrestling fans and then go on about how the Bellas are talentless whores who only get pushed because of who they gently caress (i'm not talking about anyone here)
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 11:45
|
|
|
rovert posted:That's a whole lot of reading into what I said there, Chief. What I said is pretty clearly stated. Doesn't need a from out of nowhere in interpretation. You said if he was racist you wouldn't associate with him as a counterargument to my calling him racist. But it's meaningless. Maybe he is and you didn't realise, maybe he is and you're willing to ignore it, maybe he is but the power of "racist" as a Bad Word that signifies Bad People means that you'd get defensive about it regardless. I'm not actually accusing you in particular of any of this, but it's what of seen from many people over the years who've said something similar about one of their racist friends. His racism has pretty much zero connection with whether or not you associate with him, you could really truly believe what you said but that does not in any way disprove his racism. Unless you've actually got a reason why what I talked about earlier doesn't matter, what you said is utterly irrelevant. rovert posted:Joe isn't a bigot though he doesn't censor his writers or goes after people like Uproxx crew has in the past. I don't give a gently caress about Uproxx, they're terrible writers and hypocritical faux-progresseives. Uproxx has nothing to do with anything I said, and unless you're going to actually address this: quote:Huge fan of Actual White Supremacist Gavin McInnes and Anthony "too racist for satellite radio" Cumia, admirer of heroic cops in their struggle against nothing you've said so far actually makes Lanza look any better TomWaitsForNoMan fucked around with this message at 11:48 on Nov 26, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 11:46
|
|
|
Alain Post posted:honestly Stroud/Uproxx crew really have no leg to stand on after their approach to the whole "Give divas a chance" thing in the past was apparently to be huge shitheels to the women who weren't part of the NXT group of approved good workers. Brandon has said some really awful and dismissives things about women that people here and elsewhere would jump on Lanza or whomever for. Spermgod posted:I can guarantee you that Ru Gunn thinks the Joe tweet that started this discussion was stupid as gently caress if that means anything to you. If she does she'll most likely say it. Unlike the people who remained silent when Stroud repeatedly booked/worked with Teddy Hart in INSPIRE Pro. The same group of people went fully bore after Colt Cabana after the rape chant incident in Beyond. TomWaitsForNoMan posted:nothing you've said so far actually makes Lanza look any better I regularly listen to people I don't share the same opinions of. rovert fucked around with this message at 12:01 on Nov 26, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 11:50
|
|
Spermgod posted:That's a good point but I think a lot of people come at it from the angle of "fix these things, wrestling" and I kind of don't want them to be fixed. I enjoy the fact that wrestling is the last holdout of poor taste, not because of any stupid rear end anti-PC/SJW crusader bullshit but because it's loving wrestling and a huge part of the fun of it is the voyeuristic thrill of laughing at these scumbag carnies doing scumbag carny things. You nailed it far better than I ever could have. Most of my fun watching wrestling the past few months has been watching TNA die and watching WWE flounder because neither of them know how to connect with an audience. The failure of the Divas Revolution is one extreme (it was never meant to succeed) and TNA's failures are another entirely where Billy Corgan claims to care about poo poo but that company remains carny as gently caress and.treats their workers even worse.
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 11:51
|
|
|
TIL if Dave eats 1 slice of pizza he will end up eating 15.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 11:56
|
|
|
rovert posted:
Me too, and as I said their podcast is often interesting, but you've gone from "he's definitely not racist and if he was I wouldn't have anything to do with him" to "I don't agree with him but listen anyway"
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 12:00
|
|
|
TomWaitsForNoMan posted:Me too, and as I said their podcast is often interesting, but you've gone from "he's definitely not racist and if he was I wouldn't have anything to do with him" to "I don't agree with him but listen anyway" I haven't actually I just replied to a specific post you made. Also don't invent quotes to create a narrative about me. Thanks. A post like this is normally followed by someone in your position quoting my prior posts out of context. Please don't do that either.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 12:06
|
|
|
Best way to listen to the VOW podcast is with your finger on fast forward so you can skip not just the whining about how people complain if you're offensive to minorities now, but also the constant Tinder "broads" talk, tedious rants about psychology aimed at nebulous Wrestling Twitter strawmen, baseball chat, etc.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 12:07
|
|
|
rovert posted:I haven't actually I just replied to a specific post you made. Also don't invent quotes to create a narrative about me. Thanks. It's kind of funny that someone who's been meticulously avoiding direct questions and bringing unrelated people into an argument as a clumsy attempt at deflection is accusing anyone else of arguing in bad faith, but whatever. I'll leave it there. Spermgod posted:Best way to listen to the VOW podcast is with your finger on fast forward so you can skip not just the whining about how people complain if you're offensive to minorities now, but also the constant Tinder "broads" talk, tedious rants about psychology aimed at nebulous Wrestling Twitter strawmen, baseball chat, etc. Yeah definitely, but if I'm going to have to put that much effort into listening to a podcast I'd rather just listen to something else. We Hate Movies is good.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 12:10
|
|
|
Swagger Dagger posted:TIL if Dave eats 1 slice of pizza he will end up eating 15. Well he's only human.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 12:16
|
|
|
TomWaitsForNoMan posted:It's kind of funny that someone who's been meticulously avoiding direct questions and bringing unrelated people into an argument as a clumsy attempt at deflection is accusing anyone else of arguing in bad faith, but whatever. I'll leave it there. I am not from America. Most of the references you are making are things I've only vaguely heard about. I'd be silly to comment on it. I stated from the outset I was talking from my experience. I wasn't deflecting either most of the anti-VOW comes from that Uproxx clique.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 12:23
|
|
|
rovert posted:I am not from America. Most of the references you are making are things I've only vaguely heard about. I'd be silly to comment on it. I stated from the outset I was talking from my experience. I wasn't deflecting either most of the anti-VOW comes from that Uproxx clique. Considering I never once brought up Uproxx except disparagingly, and made specific concrete accusations, perhaps bringing up Uproxx for no reason when you don't even understand the accusations isn't the best approach to the discussion
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 12:30
|
|
|
rovert posted:The whole season of South Park has been about sending that up. ah yeah the show ran by libertarians who consider anything that clashes with their apathetic worldview to be irrational and stupid, truly where i look to develop my own personal politics. makes u think Cardboard Box fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Nov 26, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 13:10
|
|
|
Cardboard Box posted:ah yeah the show ran by libertarians who consider anything that clashes with their apathetic worldview to be stupid, truly where i look to develop my own personal politics. makes u think I saw that Reddit post doing the rounds on social media too, Cardboard Box: https://twitter.com/thumbcramps/status/669605498572943360 . I didn't say it was particularly deep or something people should base their personal politics around. If I thought that way I would clearly state it. Just I don't know why Joe's tweet would set someone off that they would cross post it here.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 13:23
|
|
|
to be fair to myself i thought that about south park way before that reddit post made the rounds
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 13:25
|
|
|
Cardboard Box posted:to be fair to myself i thought that about south park way before that reddit post made the rounds I did too. Let's go back to directly talking about podcasts. TomWaitsForNoMan and myself have thrashed this out enough.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 13:28
|
|
|
fair enough can anyone say if the latest lance storm shows on f4w have been worth listening to at all? i haven't kept up with them in a while
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 13:33
|
|
|
I want to hang out with Dave eating pizza and watching old wrestling tapes
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 14:01
|
|
|
I'm a first time subscriber to WOR and Dave is way less rambly and tough to listen to than I thought he'd be. Granted I'm only listening to the post SS edition so maybe he's more on point with a big show to discuss?
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 14:02
|
|
|
Alain Post posted:from the Stone Cold podcast, what chants need to die more, "What", or "this is awesome" Jerusalem posted:The What!?! chant is awesome when a wrestler uses it or is good enough to negate it/turn it around - it engages the crowd either from a babyface or heel standpoint and builds the atmosphere of the show. The trouble is that most of the wrestlers nowadays have had any improv skills or the ability (or permission) to interact burned out of them by the relentless scripting/control freak nature of the show. What chants, apart from what was said before, mean the performer has to vary their drat cadence. But like you said, most don't know how to react, or aren't allowed to react to shut down the chants. I really did like their discussion of 'this is awesome' chants. Just enjoy the drat match, don't chant for the abstract concept of an entertaining match. Boo the bad guys, cheer the good guys, don't instantly forgive all trespasses.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 14:16
|
|
|
Bryan Alvarez was on Mat Man to discuss the current state of WWE. Pretty interesting watch if you got 30 minutes to kill.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN2wqbQR3c0
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 14:16
|
|
|
i love racism but i'm disgusted that someone would associate with rovert
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 14:21
|
|
|
Dave Meltzer mentioned that he really hates racism on WOR and hell, I agree.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 14:24
|
|
|
I've listened to every Austin podcast since the beginning and I don't think I've ever heard him so mad about WWE. Except for some brief praise for NXT and maybe one or two other things, that was like an hour long rant about everything in WWE he hates.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 14:24
|
|
|
Good on Rovert for coming out in favour of the racists, excited to see where h takes his #brand in the future! Damned SJW's they ruined SJWLand.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 14:31
|
|
|
triplexpac posted:I want to hang out with Dave eating pizza and watching old wrestling tapes If you're lucky, you'd get to see Bret Hart vs. Tom McGee
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 14:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 08:04 |
|
|
The guy on Wade's twitter timeline who compared "this is awesome" to chanting "this is funny" at a standup comic nailed it on the head.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2015 14:47
|
|
