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Baron Bifford posted:No, in the case of Superman and that Dredd thread from several years back, I was specifically rejecting other goons' interpretation of the movie. It is not my shtick to deny that all movies are incapable of symbolism. It's one thing to acknowledge that the facehugger is effectively raping people and that the Alien is visually associated with penises. But this doesn't really come to any conclusion about the movie as a whole. Why does the movie use rape imagery in the way it does? Is it just because that's scary and gross and will therefore make it a popular horror movie? As far as Superman is concerned I will repeat what I said earlier: I think there's a problem because I don't understand what you mean by "political." And also I'll repeat this because I am curious about your response: quote:Or, framed another way, he is saying "I believe it is acceptable to violate U.S. laws and blow up the government's stuff as I see fit, and I still consider myself an American." Does that not sound a little bit political? Martman fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Nov 26, 2015 |
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Nov 26, 2015 16:58
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Out of interest, everyone in the thread, please post one symbolic (for extra credit: politically symbolic) thing from Dredd and what it means to you. Screenshots would be nice too. I'll post mine in a bit.
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Nov 26, 2015 16:59
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Martman posted:It's one thing to acknowledge that the facehugger is effectively raping people and that the Alien is visually associated with penises. But this doesn't really come to any conclusion about the movie as a whole. Why does the movie use rape imagery in the way it does? Is it just because that's scary and gross and will therefore make it a popular horror movie? Pretty much. The writers needed a plot device to get the alien onboard the ship, and they came up with the idea of the alien raping a crewmember. They decided the idea was so compelling they made it the core of the movie. I think it's at that point they decided their movie was going to be a horror movie. Martman posted:As far as Superman is concerned I will repeat what I said earlier: I think there's a problem because I don't understand what you mean by "political." And also I'll repeat this because I am curious about your response: Hbomberguy posted:Out of interest, everyone in the thread, please post one symbolic (for extra credit: politically symbolic) thing from Dredd and what it means to you. Screenshots would be nice too. I'll post mine in a bit. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Nov 26, 2015 |
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Nov 26, 2015 17:04
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Baron Bifford posted:Pretty much. The writers needed a plot device to get the alien onboard the ship, and they came up with the idea of the alien raping a crewmember. They decided the idea was so compelling they made it the core of the movie. I think it's at that point they decided their movie was going to be a horror movie. Now, you've clearly accepted that there is sexual symbolism in Alien, but from my point of view you are in fact saying that the use of that symbolism is essentially meaningless. That there is no more analysis to be done beyond "someone thought this should go in a movie."
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Nov 26, 2015 17:08
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Baron Bifford posted:Wow, goons just don't know how to let things go. Do not single me out again for derailing the thread. Also, thinking democracy is cool is neither apolitical nor politically neutral. Democracy is not the neutral state of society. It isn't even the neutral state of America. America is technically a republic, unless I'm missing something here.
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Nov 26, 2015 17:10
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I haven't found anything in the interviews or Blu-ray commentaries or production diaries that suggests a deeper meaning behind the rape imagery. As far as I can tell from the material I studied, they just went with the male rape imagery because it was wonderfully horrifying. It's a horror movie.Hbomberguy posted:Also, thinking democracy is cool is neither apolitical nor politically neutral. Democracy is not the neutral state of society. It isn't even the neutral state of America. America is technically a republic, unless I'm missing something here. Come to think of it, I can't recall the last time Superman plugged democracy either. Now that the Chinese market is a big deal, I expect he won't say anything on democracy in the upcoming movie. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Nov 26, 2015 |
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Nov 26, 2015 17:12
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Baron Bifford posted:Pretty much. The writers needed a plot device to get the alien onboard the ship, and they came up with the idea of the alien raping a crewmember. They decided the idea was so compelling they made it the core of the movie. I think it's at that point they decided their movie was going to be a horror movie. But why "raping" a crewmember, instead of "attacking" a crewmember? What made rape compelling enough to be the center of a horror movie? quote:I haven't found anything in the interviews or Blu-ray commentaries or production diaries that suggests a deeper meaning behind the rape imagery. As far as I can tell from the material I studied, they just went with the male rape imagery because it was wonderfully horrifying. It's a horror movie. What made male rape imagery "wonderfully" horrifying in comparison to female rape imagery? I know I'm throwing a bunch of questions at you, but I really want to hear your honest opinion. Equeen fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Nov 26, 2015 |
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Nov 26, 2015 17:13
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Baron Bifford posted:Yeah, semantics are a problem. When I say Superman is "politically neutral" or "apolitical", I mean that he almost never takes a position that could be offensive to a large number of Americans. He thinks democracy is cool and racism is bad and that Nazis suck - political indeed, but very non-controversial as far as Western audiences go. quote:I also mean that most of Superman's villains and their schemes are too ridiculous and out-of-this-world. quote:In the Golden Age, Superman used to fight strike-breakers and slumlords and negligent employers, and that was definitely a Superman who stood for something. How times have changed. Nowadays, Superman stands for nothing in particular.
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Nov 26, 2015 17:17
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Equeen posted:But why "raping" a crewmember , instead of "attacking" a crewmember? What made rape compelling enough to be the center of a horror movie? It's in my essay: quote:In the 1970s, screenwriters Dan O'Bannon and Ronald Shusett began work on the script for what would become 1979's Alien, one of the most influential horror films of all time. The initial concept was that of a mining ship that goes to investigate a mysterious signal from an uncharted planet where they encounter a dangerous alien. The writers wanted an interesting way for the alien to infiltrate the ship, and Shusett came up with the idea of the alien raping a crewmember, and a foetus eventually bursting out of the victim in horrific fashion. This idea of sexual violation was so compelling that they made it the core of the film. "This is a movie about alien interspecies rape," in O'Bannon's words. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Nov 26, 2015 |
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Nov 26, 2015 17:18
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Baron Bifford posted:Well, if you say "democracy is cool" to a Westerner, he is unlikely to get angry and refuse to buy your books. I see the problem here.
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Nov 26, 2015 17:18
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Baron Bifford posted:It's in my essay: Why did that result in a very popular horror movie? Assuming you also think the movie is good, how did these symbols help make the movie good?
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Nov 26, 2015 17:22
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Martman posted:Why did that result in a very popular horror movie? Assuming you also think the movie is good, how did these symbols help make the movie good? Also, the movie was great for a bunch of other reasons beyond the rape theme: great set-pieces, good acting, a tight script, good music, etc.
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Nov 26, 2015 17:25
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Baron Bifford posted:Your question goes beyond the scope of the mod challenge, but I will answer it: because it's a horror movie and male rape is an effectively horrifying theme. Martman fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Nov 26, 2015 |
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Nov 26, 2015 17:36
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Baron Bifford posted:Your question goes beyond the scope of the mod challenge, but I will answer it: because it's a horror movie and male rape is an effectively horrifying theme. Aside from being horrifying, why do you think the writers chose to focus on male rape instead of female rape? What makes male rape effectively horrifying to YOU, Bifford? I realize this is a personal question, but I want hear your honest interpretation of writers' decision and how they execute that decision in the film. Equeen fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Nov 26, 2015 |
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Nov 26, 2015 17:36
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Equeen posted:Aside from being horrifying, why do you think the writers chose to focus on male rape instead of female rape? quote:"One thing that people are all disturbed about is sex... I said 'That's how I'm going to attack the audience; I'm going to attack them sexually. And I'm not going to go after the women in the audience, I'm going to attack the men. I am going to put in every image I can think of to make the men in the audience cross their legs. Homosexual oral rape, birth. The thing lays its eggs down your throat, the whole number.'" - O'Bannon Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Nov 26, 2015 |
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Nov 26, 2015 17:38
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Baron Bifford posted:
So by political, you mean "challenging the dominant political ideology". This is again proven false, given that "Racism is bad" wasn't a (in your words) "neutral, non-partisan statement" in the 1940s.
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Nov 26, 2015 17:42
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Hbomberguy posted:Out of interest, everyone in the thread, please post one symbolic (for extra credit: politically symbolic) thing from Dredd and what it means to you. Screenshots would be nice too. I'll post mine in a bit. This may seem smart rear end-y of me to do but I assure you,  It's done with total sincerity
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Nov 26, 2015 17:42
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computer parts posted:So by political, you mean "challenging the dominant political ideology".
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Nov 26, 2015 17:44
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I'm not the biggest fan of reading movies, mostly cause I suck at it but you're not supposed to cite filmmakers saying "yeah I'd be cool if there was rape in the movie" to justify a read. It is pretty boring.
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Nov 26, 2015 18:12
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Baron Bifford posted:Nice essay, but am I the only one here who references filmmaker interviews and production diaries to understand what the filmmakers really intended to say? I'm genuinely curious. Do you think a film can have a meaning that the filmmaker didn't intend for it to have? Because, if not, that's probably the root of disagreement here. Anyway, BrianWilly's Click essay says all the things that I was going to say and more, so I don't see a point in writing mine, alas.
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Nov 26, 2015 18:12
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Baron Bifford posted:I haven't found anything in the interviews or Blu-ray commentaries or production diaries that suggests a deeper meaning behind the rape imagery. As far as I can tell from the material I studied, they just went with the male rape imagery because it was wonderfully horrifying. It's a horror movie. This is frustrating to me. The point of this mod challenge is to push you towards individual analytical interpretation of a movie. We want critical thinking from you. It should be your personal viewpoints. You have essentially provided in your essay quotes of intention. "The authors thought male rape was an interesting concept" and "the director thought the robot would be sexually frustrated" are interesting, but should be used to help your arguments, not be your arguments. The way I see it, you've been asked to provide arguments for your opinions on a story, and instead of watching the movie (which you've said you enjoy) with pad and pen, jotting down ideas and notes, you've just gone on IMDB and Wikipedia for production notes. You didn't read To Kill A Mockingbird, you went on spark notes and read others ideas. This frustrates me, because there couldn't be a wrong answer in your argument, because it's your opinion. But you didn't even provide that. You provided opinions on author intent. For example, you mention the second mouth of the xenomorph as an interpretation of vagina dentata. Instead of exploring this implication, or the fact that this idea has also been changed to combine vagina dentata with a weaponized phallus that penetrates the faces/heads/minds of its prey, you chose to say "I disagree, I don't think that it is an attempt at vagina dentata". I just think more effort should have been on your part. Even if you didn't want to do actual critical thinking by just watching the film and seeing what it means to just you, you could have taken pride with your actual writing. Instead, you want to talk about writing an unnecessary essay on Superman with the KKK andarguing with people about why you've been asked to do a mod challenge, while others are taking more time and effort to one-up you with Adam Sandler essays during their holiday season.
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Nov 26, 2015 18:45
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Franchescanado posted:The point of this mod challenge is to push you towards individual analytical interpretation of a movie. We want critical thinking from you. It should be your personal viewpoints. Franchescanado posted:The way I see it, you've been asked to provide arguments for your opinions on a story, and instead of watching the movie (which you've said you enjoy) with pad and pen, jotting down ideas and notes, you've just gone on IMDB and Wikipedia for production notes. You didn't read To Kill A Mockingbird, you went on spark notes and read others ideas.
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Nov 26, 2015 18:52
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Baron Bifford posted:Their views matter more than anyone else's I'm beginning to think, while you're still not a bad person because why would anyone make that judgement in a cinema discussion forum, you are supplementing your bad opinions with a persecution complex. Which, even if you are being persecuted, is bad because it stops you from developing - it convinces you you are right and the world is wrong for mistreating you. Have you been wrong, before, on the internet? It happens to the best of us, let me tell you. And it's fine. Nobody will hate you for it. You are amongst friends. If I win the competition I'm not going to ask for you to be banned. That's why I took part. I don't want to see you go when there is so much progress to be made. Burkion posted:This may seem smart rear end-y of me to do but I assure you, Nice. Here's mine:  Dredd's incendiary round is revealed to be a White Phosphorous round. A weapon infamously used by the American government in Fallujah that killed lots of innocent civilians. The implication is double - it codes Dredd as a 'peacekeeper' who uses overpowered weaponry regardless of the victims in order to pacify dissent (it goes without saying he uses these weapons against those who don't respect the social order, after all, he is the law), but it also makes the radical claim that the arms-wielding murderers he's attacking are, in some sense, innocent, like so many victims of the weapon in real life. This scene echoes with irony when Anderson lets one person go, because she realises that people are quite often made to commit crimes by their circumstances. The film is quite straightforwardly saying that humans are generally innocent and worthy of life, but misled by the social systems they're born into - and the administration has no way of properly fixing this. Hbomberguy fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Nov 26, 2015 |
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Nov 26, 2015 19:06
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Hbomberguy posted:The film is quite straightforwardly saying that humans are generally innocent and worthy of life, but misled by the social systems they're born into
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Nov 26, 2015 19:13
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Ma-Ma had the bad fortune of being a prostitute in a broken fascist society who was mutilated senselessly. She simply reacted. When put through the wrong kind of wringer, anyone can become like her. Even your mother.
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Nov 26, 2015 19:18
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Baron Bifford posted:But you hate my personal viewpoints. You think they are troll attempts. 1. No, the issue is not that I (because this is my first time posting about or to you) or others dislike your opinion, it's that you refuse to acknowledge subtext others have found and formulated and can provide at least some evidence for. You just disagree with other formed opinions without providing back-up, evidence, or reason. You are not losing sight of the forest for the trees, you refuse to acknowledge that there can be forests or trees. And even if people did hate your opinion, that doesn't change the fact that the mod challenge was specifically FOR you to provide an opinion on subtext within a given context. 2. You are, again, missing the point. The problem is that you did not use original thought for your argument. You were asked to watch the movie and talk about ideas you saw. You instead found quotes about pre-production and production notes about the movie. This is flawed thinking, because the evolution of a film's story continues all the way to the editing process. The assignment was not "Provide proof that there is sexual imagery in Alien". If it were, you would have succeeded. The assignment, however, was to provide meaning to the sexual imagery in Alien within context of the story, and how it adds to the story, or provides weight to the themes. It's neat that Ridley Scott thought to have Ash try to choke Ridley with a magazine. But that doesn't tell me anything, other than the origin of the idea, which doesn't work within the context of the story. You should not have to know that to come to your own idea or understanding. I should not have to know who Ridley Scott is to see that this guy is shoving a phallic object into a woman's mouth to kill her, and to have a personal idea of what this means. Basically, you were asked to poo poo on a Dreamcast, and instead you poured a can of beans on it and called it a day.
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Nov 26, 2015 19:21
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Hbomberguy posted:Ma-Ma had the bad fortune of being a prostitute in a broken fascist society who was mutilated senselessly. She simply reacted. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Nov 26, 2015 |
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Nov 26, 2015 19:30
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Baron Bifford posted:I haven't listened to that radio episode of Superman, so I can't comment on whatever anti-racist message it contained (I guess I'll have to listen to it now). It's no an episode, it's a whole series of episodes that lasted several weeks. The entire point of the episodes was to demystify and mock the Klan, causing them to be delegitimized to the point where their power was broken. Seeing as the Klan itself is an inherently racist organization, I'm really not clear on how attacking them can be seen as not a strong anti-racist effort. They weren't attacked as being insufficiently pure or active in their beliefs, the point was to trivialize and mock them by showing their rituals and activities to be both bad and foolish. The story starts out with a white kid getting kicked off his baseball team because he can't handle a new Asian kid being better than him and is starting fights. The white kid's uncle then uses that incident to bring the kid into The Clan of the Fiery Cross, where they intimidate, threaten, and even attempt to kill the Asian kid and his family for the crime of being a better pitcher. Obviously there is more to the motivations of the Clan, but the story is presented in such a way as to show the limp, cowardly, and facile nature of racism. Little White Chuck fights and helps set up a series of horrible things to befall Little Asian Tommy for the high crime of being better at Baseball. Baseball being American as all gently caress, Chuck hates Tommy for being a better American, thus that hate is un-American. Mom, Apple Pie, Baseball, and Integration, all American as a Bald Eagle shooting off fireworks on the 4th of July. Poor Sportsmanship, Intimidation, Secret Societies, and Racism, all un-American as a Communist Bear staring wistfully at a portrait of Hitler while making GBS threads on a picture of George Washington.
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Nov 26, 2015 19:36
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BvS: Bifford vs. SA. Victory conditions unclear. "Do you read? You will."
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Nov 26, 2015 19:37
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Perhaps a better question would be: How did a person come to be gouging people's eyes out? PS: Creating an elaborate power structure (one that mimics the Judges', right down to hiring Judges to help maintain it!) helped her situation very much. Creating a drug empire helped her a lot to elevate her out of her situation. Her mutilating an innocent person is merely a reciprocation of something already done to her. I'm not saying 'Ma-Ma is the good guy', I am saying 'she isn't bad for no reason'.
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Nov 26, 2015 19:38
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Hbomberguy posted:Creating a drug empire helped her a lot to elevate her out of her situation. Hbomberguy posted:Her mutilating an innocent person is merely a reciprocation of something already done to her. You know what, let's take this debate to PM before I get banned for arguing this. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Nov 26, 2015 |
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Nov 26, 2015 19:45
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Baron Bifford posted:How did gouging out the eyes of her computer expert help her situation? The society of Megacity is set up in such a way that using extreme violence as a deterrent or punishment is seen as just and good. Sure the Judges talk about sentencing people to iso-cubes, but doe we ever see Dred or any other Judge take someone in? No, the enforcers of the might and will of society are shown to meet virtually every infraction with the punishment of violence and death. Ma-Ma is just a person who was brought up in that system, crushed by it and then remade fully in it's image. She is the law, willingly supported by other members of the Judge system. It's only when a new recruit, yet to be steeped in the culture and power of the Judges, and the most hardcore stickler for the given authority show up that she is beaten. Ma-Ma loses because Dred isn't just a representative of the system, as the other Judges are, he is the system. Pure, retributive, Law has been challenged and so the challenger must be crushed. It's no accident that she's a drug kingpin ruling a fiefdom composed almost entirely of the poor and underprivileged placed there by the government and society.
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Nov 26, 2015 19:52
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One of Dredd's themes is violence perpetuating violence. A cycle that never ends. Ma-Ma was brought up in a violent world, and the only way she could survive was by being violent. Dredd doesn't want to help her once he has her in custody. He just chucks her out a window so she can splatter on the ground floor of her empire. Edit: I just said everything the post above me said, only less good. drat phone postin
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Nov 26, 2015 19:54
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Hey Bifford, honest question. What do you think the idea of RoboCop being 'American Jesus' means?
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Nov 26, 2015 19:57
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CelticPredator posted:Dredd doesn't want to help her once he has her in custody. He just chucks her out a window so she can splatter on the ground floor of her empire.
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Nov 26, 2015 20:06
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Because the world isn't black and white and everyone deserves a chance.
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Nov 26, 2015 20:13
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Baron Bifford posted:Why should he? She's pretty much gone. Ask yourself this. Would he have helped some one who wasn't 'pretty much gone"?
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Nov 26, 2015 20:14
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CelticPredator posted:Because the world isn't black and white and everyone deserves a chance. Burkion posted:Would he have helped some one who wasn't 'pretty much gone"? Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Nov 26, 2015 |
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Nov 26, 2015 20:16
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To be shoved in a literal box until she died? Yeah that's a good solution. That really solves the criminal problem.
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Nov 26, 2015 20:23
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Baron Bifford posted:She had her chance... to surrender. Recall that surrendering puts you into an 'iso-cube.' They are cut off from the world and forced to iive in terrifying isolation until their inevitable death (except in the rare cases they get out but you only have to listen to the sentencing requirements to know how bullshit that is.) It's the same impact as the drugs have on someone that MaMa kills only more sanitized. That is part of why Dredd killing her is done with the drug.
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Nov 26, 2015 20:25
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