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Mister Macys posted:If you didn't have the personal photo, how would you ever know this wasn't a legit Al Qaeda pic? The lame rear end "tactical" shemagh on the dude on the left that you won't find in the Middle East and the pudgy bastard on the right with an Underarmor mask and the most American of pistols. The spirit of Osama spits upon these kafirs.
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Nov 26, 2015 15:49
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Paradoxish posted:Why are you kids all choosing practical living arrangements instead of working yourselves to death to clean up our mess more like "Owning property is such a great investment! Look at how much rent we can charge! Its so much we can afford to buy this other place cash with no conditions! You should buy! What do you mean you can't save up enough because of rent? Get a loan! What do you mean you keep getting outbid in cash? loving millennials..."
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Nov 26, 2015 15:57
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Shifty Pony posted:more like "Owning property is such a great investment! Look at how much rent we can charge! Its so much we can afford to buy this other place cash with no conditions! You should buy! What do you mean you can't save up enough because of rent? Get a loan! What do you mean you keep getting outbid in cash? loving millennials..." I remember once I went to a foreclosure auction at the county-city building. I never saw such a collection of grifter companies and boomer suckers in my life.
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Nov 26, 2015 16:03
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The Iron Rose posted:You should really reread your Burke. While I disagree with Republicans on almost everything, your understanding of Conservative philosophy is profoundly limited and shows a deep lack of understanding. Without recognizing the legitimate arguments in favour of hierarchy, tradition, order and security you fail your own cause, simply because you will fail to convince anyone of the merit of your beliefs. How can you expect anyone to agree with you, when you so profoundly misrepresent and misunderstand conservatism as a philosophy? Understanding the concerns of your opponents, even if you disagree, is the first part of being able to convince them. http://www.vox.com/2015/11/23/9782704/how-to-argue-better-according-to-science When we talk about "republicans" I think we need to distinguish between republican voters, who are often well-meaning but harmful, and republican pols and donors, who I think are often not well-meaning at all.
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Nov 26, 2015 16:18
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TheQat posted:I don't think "soul searching" works how you think it does. There are multiple conservative people I know for whom I cannot believe any amount of introspection would yield any kind of leftward political movement. They have fully internalized those views. So, I think you mistake my intentions and don't really understand what I'm trying to say, at all. You're just trying to be an apologist and contrarian. My point was that Republicans will do no soul searching, not in any meaningful sense, so as to become something other than what they currently are. It's not in their interest and if they were the sort to do such things then they probably wouldn't self-identify as Republican. I could certainly make some kind of huge effort post with nuanced opinions as to why Republicans are Republicans but why bother? Especially when so many have done so before me and you can go out and read books and articles on the subject if you so choose. Many on this forum have made statements very similar to what I'm making now. You are not educating me in any sense by smugly saying "Hmmm you should go read Chomsky, whom you've named your forum account after. Obviously you haven't!." You are just tone policing. The only reason I was ranting is because a few people are mischaracterizing my statements and writing Republican apologia that amounts to useless "Republicans are Republicans because of justified (to them) reasons!" and I don't know how that is a counterpoint to my claim that the GOP will do no soul searching because they are not capable of it. They are Republicans because they believe their views are correct. If they find views are incorrect and/or not palatable to most then why be Republican?
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Nov 26, 2015 16:24
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Cigar Aficionado posted:Right. People forget that the GOP are simply avatars that represent their constituents, who are only growing whiter, older, crazier, ANGRIER, and more stuck in their ways. Yes, theoretically the GOP should moderate and become more inclusive, but their voting base is personally going in the opposite direction of that, hence the GOP ignoring Reince's 2012 autopsy and pushing even further right. Yes. Exactly. Anyone who thinks they will soul search is mistaken. If they lose the presidency, it hardly matters because they own everything else, and they'll just wait for a time when the country is primed for conservatism to take over once again and it will absolutely happen.
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Nov 26, 2015 16:26
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The Iron Rose posted:You should really reread your Burke. While I disagree with Republicans on almost everything, your understanding of Conservative philosophy is profoundly limited and shows a deep lack of, well, understanding. Without recognizing the legitimate arguments in favour of hierarchy, tradition, order and security you fail your own cause, simply because you will fail to convince anyone of the merit of your beliefs. How can you expect anyone to agree with you, when you so profoundly misrepresent and misunderstand conservatism as a philosophy? So because I have made some low effort posts about how conservatism doesn't typically result in anything good for most people, you have somehow gleaned that I don't know anything about conservatism because I believe it's an empty ideology built around preserving existing/traditional power structures, whatever those may be, at all costs? Man, you're amazing. You must know everything about me just from my few posts.  "Hmm, you disagree with this philosophy, so you just must not understand it."Also, note that my posts mostly call out specifically the GOP. I don't find that the modern GOP is very conservative, if at all. You'd be mistaken if you did. Huzanko fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Nov 26, 2015 |
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Nov 26, 2015 16:29
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baw posted:Movement conservatism (which is the brand of conservatism that the GOP represents) is distinct from classical conservatism. Most of us don't even make the distinction when we are talking about conservatism within the context of US politics since all mainstream conservatism in the US nowadays is movement conservatism. Also, this.
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Nov 26, 2015 16:30
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Noam Chomsky posted:So because I have made some low effort posts about how conservatism doesn't typically result in anything good for most people, you have somehow gleaned that I don't know anything about conservatism because I believe it's an empty ideology built around preserving existing/traditional power structures, whatever those may be, at all costs? Man, you're amazing. You must know everything about me just from my few posts. That you keep turning it into a pathology is a very good indication you don't understand it, yes.
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Nov 26, 2015 16:32
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Probably everyone should read "On Various Kinds of Thinking" by James Robinson:quote:A third kind of thinking is stimulated when anyone questions our belief and opinions. We sometimes find ourselves changing our minds without any resistance or heavy emotion, but if we are told that we are wrong we resent the imputation and harden our hearts. quote:This distinction between "good" and "real" reasons is one of the most clarifying and essential in the whole realm of thought. We can readily give what seem to us "good" reasons for being a Catholic or a Mason, a Republican or a Democrat, an adherent or opponent of the League of Nations. But the "real" reasons are usually on quite a different plane. Of course the importance of this distinction is popularly, if somewhat obscurely, recognized. The Baptist missionary is ready enough to see that the Buddhist is not such because his doctrines would bear careful inspection, but because he happened to be born in a Buddhist family in Tokyo. But it would be treason to his faith to acknowledge that his own partiality for certain doctrines is due to the fact that his mother was a member of the First Baptist church of Oak Ridge. quote:The "real" reasons for our beliefs are concealed from ourselves as well as from others. As we grow up we simply adopt the ideas presented to us in regard to such matters as religion, family relations, property, business, our country, and the state. We unconsciously absorb them from our environment. They are persistently whispered in our ear by the group in which we happen to live.
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Nov 26, 2015 16:32
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Fried Chicken posted:That you keep turning it into a pathology is a very good indication you don't understand it, yes. So it isn't valid to claim that a particular ideology is actively harmful, and pathological, and if you believe that it is then you don't understand it. Cool. I guess we've entered the "Eh, Republicans and Conservatism aren't so bad" phase of political discussion. Time for the GOP to take over again so that leftists can remember how loving terrible they are.
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Nov 26, 2015 16:34
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Noam Chomsky posted:So it isn't valid to claim that a particular ideology is actively harmful, and pathological, and if you believe that it is then you don't understand it. Cool. You are a moron.
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Nov 26, 2015 16:37
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Noam Chomsky posted:So because I have made some low effort posts about how conservatism doesn't typically result in anything good for most people, you have somehow gleaned that I don't know anything about conservatism because I believe it's an empty ideology built around preserving existing/traditional power structures, whatever those may be, at all costs? Man, you're amazing. You must know everything about me just from my few posts. Yeah basically, that sounds about right. If you understood conservative philosophy your objections would take a far different form. Instead of shitposts about how conservatives are incapable of soul searching because then they would no longer be conservative, you would talk about the overemphasis on stability and order and how reducing inequality would not result in chaos or anarchy. Or perhaps you'd mention the shortsightedness of clinging to traditions (read: homophobia) that do nothing to promote stability and ordered hierarchy, rather, say, than appealing and reinforcing traditional methods of governance that would produce a more lean and effective government. So no, you don't understand anything about conservative philosophy, because you aren't actually crafting objections to conservative philosophy despite emphasizing it's conservatism you are criticizing. Nothing you have said indicates you understand any aspect of conservative ideology. You're pretty on point when it comes to the crux of movement conservatism and the rabid id of the Republican base. That said, you're not actually invalidating conservative ideology by any stretch of the imagination. You're the rhetorical equivalent of shooting the side of a barn. Sure, you're hitting the mark, but it's a low loving bar and doesn't actually convince anyone of your marksmanship.
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Nov 26, 2015 16:38
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It's really funny that my claim that Republicans won't do any soul searching any time soon and fundamentally change as a party, so as to become more palatable, has been met with a passionate defense of conservatism. This forum is loving weird, or maybe people post just to be contrarians. Sorry guys, I don't think you need to read every single text about conservative philosophy to be able to criticize the GOP and their voters or conservatism itself. The assumption that I don't know anything about how they formulate their views or why they continue to hold them is loving laughable.
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Nov 26, 2015 16:41
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Riptor posted:For anyone in the Boston area: Michael Dukakis wants your turkey carcass to make soup with, and he includes his home address in Brookline to drop them off edit: and I'm pretty sure he was the only professor/instructor I had that required students to meet with him one-on-one at least once outside of class to discuss exactly what each individual student wanted to get out of the class. Really invested guy. Grey Fox fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Nov 26, 2015 |
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Nov 26, 2015 16:41
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The Iron Rose posted:Yeah basically, that sounds about right. Why do you think my intention was to come in here and defeat conservatism with the sword of knowledge or whatever the gently caress? My original post that started this stupidity was just that the GOP wouldn't do any soul searching because they're just not capable of it and it's not in their interest. I know you want to defend conservatism for whatever reason, but I never attacked "classical conservatism." I'm not getting into a philosophical debate. I don't care to. I don't think the GOP are classical conservatives, or even conservatives at all. They just claim to be.
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Nov 26, 2015 16:44
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Noam Chomsky posted:It's really funny that my claim that Republicans won't do any soul searching any time soon and fundamentally change as a party, so as to become more palatable, has been met with a passionate defense of conservatism. This forum is loving weird, or maybe people post just to be contrarians. Republicans haven't actually been conservative for decades. Noam Chomsky posted:I know you want to defend conservatism for whatever reason, but I never attacked "classical conservatism." I'm not getting into a philosophical debate. I don't care to. I don't think the GOP are classical conservatives, or even conservatives at all. They just claim to be.
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Nov 26, 2015 16:45
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Franco Potente posted:You are a moron. Nah. I'm pretty sure morons would be people who start spouting Republican apologia and then turn around the next week when a member of the GOP says or does something horrible, or a cop shoots a black kid, or what have you and then scream about how horrible Republicans are. People have said worse things about Republicans on this forum than I have and they weren't dog-piled this hard.
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Nov 26, 2015 16:46
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JT Jag posted:Conservatism isn't that bad of an idea for a political party. Well, I apologize. I never intended to attack conservatism as a philosophy. I had assumed that the given context would be whatever the GOP and whatever they call their conservatism.
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Nov 26, 2015 16:47
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Noam Chomsky posted:Well, I apologize. I never intended to attack conservatism as a philosophy. I had assumed that the given context would be whatever the GOP and whatever they call their conservatism.
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Nov 26, 2015 16:49
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Thinking that any large political ideology is somehow inherently unable to participate in introspection is a very childish view that really doesn't serve any purpose but to give you reason to pretend to be superior to your opponent purely because of what box you check on a ballot. It also removes any responsibility the leaders have for their hateful and regressive stances, with poo poo like 'oh yea of course they're still hating gay people when even the majority of the country is saying 'nah it's fine', they just can't look inwards' when really the people calling the shots know exactly what they're doing. Infantalizing the opposition does no good at all. These aren't mentally deficient victims of a pathology, these are people supporting a leadership that very clearly knows what they're doing and actively are choosing messages of hate and fear.
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Nov 26, 2015 16:53
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Shifty Pony posted:more like "Owning property is such a great investment! Look at how much rent we can charge! Its so much we can afford to buy this other place cash with no conditions! You should buy! What do you mean you can't save up enough because of rent? Get a loan! What do you mean you keep getting outbid in cash? loving millennials..." Now most homes here are in the 800k-1mil range. Even the crappiest dump far from public transit is 450k. Prices are skyrocketing everywhere, especially along the proposed green line extension, which won't be finished until 2018 if at all. Everything being built is luxury condos, even though existing developments are only 30% rented. I'm not going to move to some shitbird suburb just so busybodies will think I'm an adult. Meanwhile, the Brooklyn Museum hosted a Real Estate Developers' conference, which was heavily protested. As well they should. Museum has no business sheltering the vultures who push out local artists with their speculation and gentrification. http://gothamist.com/2015/11/17/brooklyn_museum_real_estate.php
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Nov 26, 2015 17:01
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34930042 Has anyone made a .gif of the Donald aping a disabled NYT reporter yet?
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Nov 26, 2015 17:08
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The Iron Rose posted:you would talk about the overemphasis on stability and order and how reducing inequality would not result in chaos or anarchy. Or perhaps you'd mention the shortsightedness of clinging to traditions (read: homophobia) that do nothing to promote stability and ordered hierarchy, rather, say, than appealing and reinforcing traditional methods of governance that would produce a more lean and effective government. Wait wait wait, have Republicans actually cared about any of these things for the past, oh, thirty to fifty years? They sure don't care about lean and effective government, we saw that when Iraq was all about bloated no-bid contracts and appointing people to posts based on their degrees from whackjob religious schools rather than any actual experience or competency. They don't seem to care much about order and tradition either since they relentlessly attack all the institutions we've built up over eighty years, destroy any kind of effective regulation and governance, and let the country fall to ruin while the richest loot the treasury. They don't care much for rule of law, since Republican governors and attorneys general (like mine) were doing their best to encourage clerks to pull a Kim Davis. I guess they respect the proud tradition of...bashing gays and stoking fears about other races? But even those things are used to try to destroy longstanding institutions like civil rights and the New Deal. If you look at what the party actually tries to do policy-wise, then at best those things you mentioned are just lip-service to get votes from those who pay little attention to what's happening.
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Nov 26, 2015 17:12
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The belief that Republicans are capable of reflection that doesn't result in doubling down or deluding themselves is irrational at this point. People do those things, and they find that there is no place in the Republican party for them at this time. The sole exception is immigration, because some Republicans can see that their party's vitriol interferes with getting immigrants who agree with them on everything else to vote for them. If you think the Republican Party has anything to do with Burke, you might want to watch who you accuse of not understanding others, because you don't understand either American Conservatism or Burke well enough to see beyond a label.
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Nov 26, 2015 17:26
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I should note that I don't think the Republican Party has much at all to do with classical conservative ideology. Oh, they cling to it in name, but not in practice. There are two objections that have been articulated: that infantilizing the opposition does little good, and that Chomsky's posts decrying conservatism are not actually describing conservatism, but rather the republican base. It's the latter point that I attempted to articulate, though I agree with the former as well. Essentially: JT Jag posted:Conservatism isn't that bad of an idea for a political party.
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Nov 26, 2015 17:30
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Sir Tonk posted:http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2015/11/25/9800940/fox-news-chicago-black-on-black-crime What's funny is that the night before Megyn Kelly caught a different protestor staring down a cop. It wasn't a big deal at all but it was the closest thing to "scary black people" or "intimidating/violent protest" that they could find so Kelly and her guests freaked out about it and all day Fox News kept replaying it like it was some kind of controversy. So the next day Tobin interviewed him and asked the same question and got the same basic response. They were obviously hoping he'd say something inflammatory so they could keep it up, but instead he just gave them the simple, logical answer to their stupid talking point. I caught a bit of that and while Kelly wasn't there her fill in literally was speechless to that and didn't know where to go with it.p STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Nov 26, 2015 |
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Nov 26, 2015 17:32
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Thinking that any large political ideology is somehow inherently unable to participate in introspection is a very childish view that really doesn't serve any purpose but to give you reason to pretend to be superior to your opponent purely because of what box you check on a ballot. It also removes any responsibility the leaders have for their hateful and regressive stances, with poo poo like 'oh yea of course they're still hating gay people when even the majority of the country is saying 'nah it's fine', they just can't look inwards' when really the people calling the shots know exactly what they're doing. Infantalizing the opposition does no good at all. These aren't mentally deficient victims of a pathology, these are people supporting a leadership that very clearly knows what they're doing and actively are choosing messages of hate and fear. But on the other hand, they commissioned a report after 2012 that basically told them "Hey, stop being so sexist and racist and you'll win more votes" and then did the complete opposite of that. So I'd say they are very much incapable of introspection. The leadership has no idea what it is doing or Donald Trump wouldn't be the leader in the primary.
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Nov 26, 2015 17:33
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WampaLord posted:But on the other hand, they commissioned a report after 2012 that basically told them "Hey, stop being so sexist and racist and you'll win more votes" and then did the complete opposite of that. So I'd say they are very much incapable of introspection. But being less sexist and racist would get them primaried in their safe districts. They made a conscious decision to care about their jobs than about electoral success.
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Nov 26, 2015 17:39
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Yoshifan823 posted:He is literally Carl Weathers from Arrested Development. Is this an insult? Because homemade broth/stock is awesome.
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Nov 26, 2015 17:42
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Tatum Girlparts posted:These aren't mentally deficient victims of a pathology, these are people supporting a leadership that very clearly knows what they're doing and actively are choosing messages of hate and fear. Yep. In honor of Thanksgiving, I present to you a very dear family member of mine who is well-known for being wonderful and generous, is an amazing teacher who works with kids all day for poo poo pay, and is all-around fantastic. Won't vote anything but Republican, has never voted anything other than Republican. Recommended that I, a gay person, submit job applications to the Trump and Rubio campaigns. Is incensed that Hillary Clinton "lied to the American people". Thinks illegal immigrants "just shouldn't break the law" (but would undoubtedly help any of them out if they were actual people she saw in real life in need, instead of just imaginary straw men). The best part is, she barely has any money saved for retirement, and is basically going to have to live off of Social Security+ex-spouse's pension in a decade or so. She isn't stupid (is an excellent teacher), and she doesn't lack compassion (the stories I could tell of her self-sacrifice for people are really unbelievable). But I'm dead certain that all of the Republican candidates could say (and some have already said) they personally want to end public schooling and Social Security and deport the very kids she teaches and she would vote for them every time. Based on my repeated exposure to this person there's two components to her political stance: 1) Identity: Republican = self-reliant, smart, pro-safety, pro-family, pro-America. Nothing can contradict this, ever. 2) Availability heuristic: Somehow, some way (in part because of the Identity thing above) she cannot connect what the GOP says with what will actually happen if they succeed. The policy-reality divide is so great that it simply does not exist. The cognitive dissonance results in truly evil policies like mass deportations or Rubio's "terrorist attacks are good for my campaign moment" being explained away as good for the country or taking things out of context. Only the good things survive the filter. So why wouldn't anyone want to vote Republican? I hate to say it, because I love this family member a lot, but every time we talk about politics, I remember how truly horrible things happen in history. It's not just that good people don't do anything in the face of evil, it's that good people will happily, enthusiastically support evil, right up until they're frog marching undocumented kids (or even citizens with undocumented parents) out of her classroom into the buses waiting in the parking lot, because they're utterly convinced that evil is good. Just to be clear, the total inability to understand the chain of causation between things that you can't immediately see is surprisingly common. Humanity knew the cure for scurvy for centuries, but thousands died year after year because people couldn't make the right connections between the potential causes and their effects without a modern, scientific understanding of exactly what scurvy was and why it did or didn't happen.
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Nov 26, 2015 17:47
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VitalSigns posted:Interesting ratchet effect there. Economy contracts: don't touch tax rates, government has to tighten its belt like the rest of us! Economy recovers: cut tax rates so revenue stays depressed! I actually think it might not be a bad idea for the government to make it more clearer to the general populace about raising taxes. SO people get it in their loving heads. "You want it? You must pay for it".
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Nov 26, 2015 17:54
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Ok Happy Thanksgiving everyone! Since all this bullshit came out about how Trump and Rubio (and of course, Carson) are lying fucks where the truth doesn't even loving matter: has Clinton even come close to this poo poo recently? She got called out at her 'shot at' poo poo a while back, and that's all I can remember. The difference is though she didn't accuse the media of doing their job. I have a feeling some discussions may come up at the dinner table. So, this isn't exactly like asking you to do my homework for me: I just haven't followed the HC v BS slapfight thread that much.
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Nov 26, 2015 18:02
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WampaLord posted:But on the other hand, they commissioned a report after 2012 that basically told them "Hey, stop being so sexist and racist and you'll win more votes" and then did the complete opposite of that. So I'd say they are very much incapable of introspection. Thats the fall back plan when things are looking dire for them. They still have a few elections of the usual gerrymandering, voter ID blocking, and the other small poo poo like relocating DMVs and denying people the day off work to vote.
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Nov 26, 2015 18:03
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Doctor Butts posted:Ok Of course not, Democrat voters are too self-conscious not to abandon pathological liars.
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Nov 26, 2015 18:03
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JT Jag posted:Conservatism isn't that bad of an idea for a political party. Yeah, talking about Buckley and Burke and philosophical conservativism is a great way to troll movement conservative s but they're really very distinct philosophies today.
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Nov 26, 2015 18:04
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Noam Chomsky posted:So it isn't valid to claim that a particular ideology is actively harmful, and pathological, and if you believe that it is then you don't understand it. Cool. quote:I guess we've entered the "Eh, Republicans and Conservatism aren't so bad" phase of political discussion. Time for the GOP to take over again so that leftists can remember how loving terrible they are.
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Nov 26, 2015 18:11
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Noam Chomsky posted:It's really funny that my claim that Republicans won't do any soul searching any time soon and fundamentally change as a party, so as to become more palatable, has been met with a passionate defense of conservatism. This forum is loving weird, or maybe people post just to be contrarians. quote:Sorry guys, I don't think you need to read every single text about conservative philosophy to be able to criticize the GOP and their voters or conservatism itself. The assumption that I don't know anything about how they formulate their views or why they continue to hold them is loving laughable. Noam Chomsky posted:Nah. I'm pretty sure morons would be people who start spouting Republican apologia and then turn around the next week when a member of the GOP says or does something horrible, or a cop shoots a black kid, or what have you and then scream about how horrible Republicans are. Enjoying your pity party?
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Nov 26, 2015 18:14
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SedanChair posted:Of course not, Democrat voters are too self-conscious not to abandon pathological liars. It's also an established fact that truth has a liberal bias which means democrats don't have to lie nearly as much as republicans to win over liberal voters.
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Nov 26, 2015 18:17
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PhazonLink posted:Is this an insult? Because homemade broth/stock is awesome. No, that's absolutely awesome. It's a very easy way to make some delicious stuff at home on the cheap.
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Nov 26, 2015 18:19
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