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Wales Grey posted:I don't believe a tu quoque is a robust refutation attempts to associate the abuses and crimes of theocratic governments with the lay practitioners of a religion. Wales Grey posted:My original post called Tei a man but I didn't want to misgender them, so I went with the gender indicated on their profile. Flowers For Algeria fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Nov 26, 2015 |
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Nov 26, 2015 23:36
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Flowers For Algeria posted:You can't really make an omelet without breaking a few priests, I'm afraid. No one's hands are clean. You are not enlightened because you an atheist. The issue of conservatism isn't a religious one. It is an issue of authoritarian personalities being drawn to things that let them bully. Plenty of awful things in this world are completely secular, including conservatism. Ayn Rand is completely secular, even anti-religious. Religion is more than a set of beliefs, it is part of people's cultural and ethnic heritage. How about instead of vilifying Islam, you vilify the western powers who are arming and funding these assholes that are creating the refugee problem in the first place.
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Nov 26, 2015 23:51
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Tei posted:Wikipedia is the most popular wiki and is a encyclopedia, and is only natural that people see a wiki and asociate it with things like citations things and stuff you see in a encyclopedia. But this association is wrong. Not all wikis are encyclopedias, or need to be. True, but Wikia != Wikipedia. Wikia tends to collect wikis that are populated by a handful of extremely myopic editors who fail to establish or follow any sort of policies regarding quality or bias. Whatever its faults, Wikipedia at least attempts to remain vaugely scholarly and provide clear citations of good sources, and its visibility attracts many, many editors. The Wikia you linked in question is scarcely more than an indiscriminate collection of "religion bad!", mostly written by one contributor. Plus they show their bias on the front page, declaring two of the goals of the Wikia are to "Highlight the damage which religions can cause" and "Show the world the damage caused by Religion". Not exactly compelling stuff. Especially when they claim that "Liberal (read: European) Christianity is the least harmful religion". Flowers For Algeria posted:I really think it is when the dude's whole point is "we're better than them". Exposing people as concern trolls and hypocrites is pretty important. Wales Grey fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Nov 27, 2015 |
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Nov 27, 2015 00:00
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 How is the emotion of hate irrational? - an atheist
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Nov 27, 2015 00:07
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Mandy Thompson posted:Religion is more than a set of beliefs, it is part of people's cultural and ethnic heritage. How about instead of vilifying Islam, you vilify the western powers who are arming and funding these assholes that are creating the refugee problem in the first place. Er, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it mainly Saudi Arabia and the gulf emirate states funding and arming the Islamist groups like ISIS?
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Nov 27, 2015 00:08
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Mandy Thompson posted:No one's hands are clean. You are not enlightened because you an atheist. The issue of conservatism isn't a religious one. It is an issue of authoritarian personalities being drawn to things that let them bully. Plenty of awful things in this world are completely secular, including conservatism. Ayn Rand is completely secular, even anti-religious. Religion is not the sole source of conservatism and indeed many religious people are perfectly sane. You can't deny that religion, religious upbringing, a religious context, are breeding grounds for conservatism and for authoritarianism. And rejecting humanism and ascribing an absolute moral superiority to the tenets of a faith will draw you to conservatism as surely as authoritarianism. Don't dismiss the idea that religious beliefs and political beliefs are entertwined: religious beliefs do certainly inform political ideologies. Not everything in religion is bad, the cultural and identitary aspects can be pretty inoffensive, so I don't care about these. Please refer to my posting history and you will realize that I'm far quicker to "vilify the western powers..." as you say. Just because I'm dismissive of religion in general does not mean I'll go out of my way to poo poo on Islam. I'll poo poo on those religious people who poison my existence and the political discourse in my country first - ie the vicars and bishops who are the main religious sources of conservatism and social regression. EDIT for clarification maybe: perhaps you will be interested to know that my first post was the reappropriation of a quote by a former catholic priest, Jean Meslier, who later became an anarchist and famously wished to see the last king strangled with the guts of the last vicar. Flowers For Algeria fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Nov 27, 2015 |
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Nov 27, 2015 00:09
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After the "new atheists," I think I super can say that there is no correlation between religion and conservative or reactionary ideologies.
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Nov 27, 2015 00:11
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Well that is absurd. A minor trend of conservative thought in a very conservative and racist country doesn't disprove worldwide tendencies, SedanChair.
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Nov 27, 2015 00:16
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Well that is absurd. Worldwide tendencies like Christianity in Europe? They've managed to shed their conservatism well enough.
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Nov 27, 2015 00:18
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Uh, Islamist parties worldwide are notoriously conservative, so are Buddhist parties in Japan or Cambodia ; Christian-Democrats in Europe are anywhere between the center and the right, and the far-right in Europe is largely Christian and defend their "Christian values" (ans so is the Russian right with its defense of the Orthodox Christian Church). Politics in America are skewed towards the right and infused with religion ; as for South America, the role of the Church in the 20th century authoritarian conservative dictatorships there is pretty well established, liberation theology notwithstanding.
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Nov 27, 2015 00:27
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SedanChair posted:After the "new atheists," I think I super can say that there is no correlation between religion and conservative or reactionary ideologies. Lmao (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 27, 2015 00:40
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Arachnophobia
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Nov 27, 2015 00:47
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Uh, Islamist parties worldwide are notoriously conservative, so are Buddhist parties in Japan or Cambodia ; Christian-Democrats in Europe are anywhere between the center and the right, and the far-right in Europe is largely Christian and defend their "Christian values" (ans so is the Russian right with its defense of the Orthodox Christian Church). Politics in America are skewed towards the right and infused with religion ; as for South America, the role of the Church in the 20th century authoritarian conservative dictatorships there is pretty well established, liberation theology notwithstanding. These are not convincing examples from the perspective of religion as a source for conservatism, as you have been promoting. In order to rule out the alternative possibility, that conservatism is a source for religiosity, you would need to show universally that all religious folk were more conservative than atheists, or perhaps just secular humanists. The former is absolutely untrue- Jewish Americans are more liberal than self-identified atheist Americans, on average. I suspect that examining religious minorities in other countries will show similar complexity.
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Nov 27, 2015 02:25
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religions are bad as a propagating source of magical thinking if you disagree then we might as well close schools Tei posted:Arachnophobia is also dumb and irrational, and people should make an effort not to make their kids freak out over every loving spider in sight to make it disappear
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Nov 27, 2015 02:33
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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blowfish posted:religions are bad as a propagating source of magical thinking They do not lose out to nationalism in that regard, however.
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Nov 27, 2015 03:14
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blowfish posted:religions are bad as a propagating source of magical thinking Is this definitional or incidental? That is, if I can provide an example of a "religion" that offers no magical thinking, is it not a religion? Or a "secular" philosophy that offers magical thinking, this is actually a religion?
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Nov 27, 2015 03:20
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Most religious denominations are explicitly anti-authoritarian. Like, that's the whole gimmick behind Protestantism.
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Nov 27, 2015 03:30
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computer parts posted:Most religious denominations are explicitly anti-authoritarian. Like, that's the whole gimmick behind Protestantism. There's nothing intrinsically anti-authoritarian in Protestantism, its just that they generally rejects Catholicism as too deviant from the true authority of the bible. Consider that Protestantism only survived by wedging itself into already elite circles and allowing them to further consolidate their power by removing the Catholic church from the equation, further said elites decided what their subject's religion was going to be without much input from the people.
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Nov 27, 2015 04:10
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sean price posted:i think comparing every single loving thing to past conflicts that happened before the advent of cars when a whole loving lot has changed in terms of war technology ALONE is p dumb, yea, is that nuanced or spergygoony or whatever you need it to be enough for you? I'm pretty sure that by now humanity has explored pretty much every possible way to be an rear end in a top hat, to at least some degree. We might be oppressing Arabs with drone bombings now instead of Maxim guns or tanks, but the fundamental racism and oppression hasn't changed significantly. History isn't some magic future-prediction device, but it's true enough that few situations are genuinely new, even if people react and behave in different ways to those same-old situations. Manic X posted:As sad as it is to say, I honestly don't think social mixing is a good idea; especially when certain cultures have agressive beliefs and tendencies. "Those other cultures have aggressive tendencies, which is why we need to conquer, ostracise, expel, or crush them with military force because they cannot possibly understand our superior and peaceful culture" - basically every prominent white person ever throughout all of history  An Enormous Boner posted:Are those things "God said so"-based? They can be anything-based. That's the whole point of private arbitration. If two people willingly agree to resolve their disputes outside of court using a mutually-agreed-upon set of rules, the court is happy to support that for various (mostly pragmatic) reasons, regardless of what that set of rules is. There are some issues with implementation, particularly its tendency to lean in favor of large organizations and the possibility that people may be pressured into arbitration agreements, but none of them are inherent to a specific set of rules.
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Nov 27, 2015 04:55
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The USA is already filled up with goofy religious poo poo, it's a big old bummer the Middle East is a toilet but it seems like poor planning to import a different flavor of the same brand. Muslims did vote Republican before they were vilified, after all. Religion may not be the source of all problems but it's an extra layer of useless obfuscating trash to deal with. Boy golly gee, you can't get an abortion for your rape baby cause god installed the soul already, what do you mean the bible doesn't say a loving thing about abortion? HERESY! In the end, the Branch Davidians at least had the common decency to set themselves on fire.
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Nov 27, 2015 06:02
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khwarezm posted:There's nothing intrinsically anti-authoritarian in Protestantism, its just that they generally rejects Catholicism as too deviant from the true authority of the bible. And other Protestants when they get too uppity. By its very nature, there is very little inherent to Protestantism. Its decentralized nature is one of those few components.
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Nov 27, 2015 06:38
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The same is true of Islam, incidentally, which is why I'm skeptical of claims that the should be some kind of Islamic pope - that's not the issue and I'm not sure it could actually help. Also, all religions are magical thinking, but not all magical thinking is religious, and it's the whole set that is problematic. Not that you could ever solve this problem with legislation in any way.
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Nov 27, 2015 08:02
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People that think all religions are equal, are following their social programming and not acting logically. Is just a dogma that is dominant in the western world. After crushing more than half the world with the colonization thing, the european have told themselves this idea strong enough that they believe it, in shame. With all the religion wars they have done the same. Anyone that put in question these ideas is see like somebody that want the pendulum to swing in the other direction, a return to having the europeans feeling superior and crushing all other cultures. Is just not aceptable to try to move the pendulum to the center, where it deserve. Tei fucked around with this message at 08:43 on Nov 27, 2015 |
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Nov 27, 2015 08:38
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rudatron posted:The same is true of Islam, incidentally, which is why I'm skeptical of claims that the should be some kind of Islamic pope - that's not the issue and I'm not sure it could actually help. You're aware this already exists, right?  (At least for Shi'ia Islam in Iran)
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Nov 27, 2015 09:55
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Flowers For Algeria posted:the far-right in Europe is largely Christian and defend their "Christian values" Tbh groups like Pegida claim their judeo-christian values, but they neither know what that even means nor have most of them entered a church in the last years. They collectively failed to know the lyrics of some of the most basic Christmas songs last year.
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Nov 27, 2015 10:26
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Honj Steak posted:Tbh groups like Pegida claim their judeo-christian values, but they neither know what that even means nor have most of them entered a church in the last years. They collectively failed to know the lyrics of some of the most basic Christmas songs last year. Just like the average religious extremist then 
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Nov 27, 2015 12:04
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Tei posted:People that think all religions are equal, are following their social programming and not acting logically. So what religion is the most logically correct?
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Nov 27, 2015 12:39
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I'm going out on a limb here but I'm betting it's the one you belong to.
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Nov 27, 2015 12:40
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drilldo squirt posted:So what religion is the most logically correct? Thats a weird way to categorize religions. Religions are about mysticism and other things. Its a weird angle to take from my post. I can't care less what religion is less or more logically correct. Or if the pope paint abstract art because is the only way to sublime pederasty. Christianism is kinda cool, but is wrong about one thing, Jesus survived the crucifixion, he was seen by witnesses three days later. All the stuff about Islamism is kinda cool too. The prophet said that Islamism will last until the man would put their foot in the moon. So is kinda like "expired food". I don't know much about Buddhism, Shintoism, Animism and these things. But I can tell you my toothbrush is not alive, nor have a "ghost" in it. Asking what is the most logically correct religion is a bit like asking what is the less crazy guy in the asylum, the one that believe to be Napoleon, or the one that thinks he is a Motorbike. I can produce a answer, but it will not be useful.
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Nov 27, 2015 12:56
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What do you mean when you say not all religions are equal?
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Nov 27, 2015 13:20
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Anosmoman posted:What do you mean when you say not all religions are equal? Now I understand better the other dude question. Sorry. Ignore my post above this one. Heres some reviews for imaginary religions, with a score. - Religions that ask to kill every third children: * Annoying. * Nobody want to kill babies, is ugly, sad and nasty. * It (potentially) make the womens very angry/sad. Not good. 1 star. - Religions that ask to have a magic item with you all the time: * Annoying. * What if you want to swim? do you have to have the item with you, inside your swimsuit? * If somebody pee on your item. He is literally peeing on your god. Not good. 2 stars. - Religions that ask to proselytize and do absolutely nothing thusday: * Weee.... lazy thusday!. * You have to convince your boss to free you from work every thusday. * Is anoying for other people that you are trying to hire for your religion. Not good. 3 stars. - Supersecret religion. You pray, but told everyone that you are atheist. * No free thusday  * If you get cancer, you still have a relief beyond chemo. Praying is a psychological help. * You don't annoy anyone. Good. 4 stars out of 5. Tei fucked around with this message at 13:32 on Nov 27, 2015 |
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Nov 27, 2015 13:29
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SedanChair posted:They do not lose out to nationalism in that regard, however. Nationalism is an apt comparison because much like religion, it is a major source of conservatism, but not the only one and it is not systematically conservative. See for example Arab nationalism a la Nasser and anticolonial nationalism in general. But such outliers are not enough to contradict the idea that it is a major source of conservatism. Effectronica posted:These are not convincing examples from the perspective of religion as a source for conservatism, as you have been promoting. In order to rule out the alternative possibility, that conservatism is a source for religiosity, you would need to show universally that all religious folk were more conservative than atheists, or perhaps just secular humanists. The former is absolutely untrue- Jewish Americans are more liberal than self-identified atheist Americans, on average. I suspect that examining religious minorities in other countries will show similar complexity. That's a pretty high bar you're setting! And an unrealistic one too. Especially since I'm not claiming that religious belief is systematically linked to conservatism in every individual, but that it is a) statistically a good indicator of conservatism on a general level and b) this trend holds true in pretty much every historical instance of conservatives in power, especially authoritarian conservatives. It seems to me that theoretically, proving that there is some form of causation that would go "attachment to religious beliefs" > "conservative tendencies" would be more interestng than the reverse, because there actually is a causal link that would explain it. I can hardly think of a causal link between "conservative tendencies" > "religious beliefs". Your Jewish-American example falls flat because their liberalism isn't linked to religion, but rather class and education and so on. They are a largely secularized ethnic and cultural minority! Though you bring up an interesting point about religious minorities: they are more likely to be anti-conservative because they're at the receiving end of conservatism. In the 80's many American Arabs voted Republican. Now that they've been severely otherized, this tendency has disappeared. Honj Steak posted:Tbh groups like Pegida claim their judeo-christian values, but they neither know what that even means nor have most of them entered a church in the last years. They collectively failed to know the lyrics of some of the most basic Christmas songs last year. By this metric ISIS is unislamic, because they do not adhere to the parctice of religion in Europe.
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Nov 27, 2015 14:05
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Islamaphobia stems from the fact that there is a silent majority of non-extremists. Anytime there is a terrorist attack there should be millions of Muslims marching and getting attention that this is not exceptable. Because this does not often occur the narrative that these kinds of practices (terrorism) is acceptable floats among westerners. The argument that Muslims died in a terrorist attack is also silly because everyone knows that Sunni and Shia Muslims hate one another, and the assumption people make is that they're the "wrong" kind of Muslim according to the terrorist. Another fear stemming from terrorism is that anyone - man, woman, or even a child - could be a terrorist. It is terrifying to think that someone could take advantage of a child in a such a way. This dehumanizes Muslims greatly because people no longer view them as "people", which is why I think there is a large backlash against the Syrian refugees. There was also a survey done after the Charlie hebdo attacks that cited a large percentage of Muslims would not carry out a terrorist attack but sympathized and understood why the terrorist did what they did. The percentage is irrelevant because westerners see that as supporting terrorism. There's also that whole shariah law thing, which anjem choudry doesn't help stem that very much.
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Nov 27, 2015 14:27
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I hate yankees posted:Islamaphobia stems from the fact that there is a silent majority of non-extremists. Anytime there is a terrorist attack there should be millions of Muslims marching and getting attention that this is not exceptable. Because this does not often occur the narrative that these kinds of practices (terrorism) is acceptable floats among westerners. Actually, they do. Often, actually.
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Nov 27, 2015 14:38
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Muslims don't owe you poo poo. They shouldn't have to march just for you or any Westerner to show that they don't support terrorist attacks, because it is already obvious to anyone who isn't terminally bigoted. Did you march? No? Why, do you support the terrorists?
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Nov 27, 2015 14:51
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I hate yankees posted:Islamaphobia stems from the fact that there is a silent majority of non-extremists. Anytime there is a islamophobic incident there should be millions of Christians marching and getting attention that this is not acceptable. Because this does not often occur the narrative that these kinds of practices (islamophobia) is acceptable floats among westerners.
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Nov 27, 2015 14:55
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Muslims don't owe you poo poo. They shouldn't have to march just for you or any Westerner to show that they don't support terrorist attacks, because it is already obvious to anyone who isn't terminally bigoted. Whoa there buddy, nice ad hominem. You seem really mad that I made a generalized point. The point of my post was to bring up why people are islamaphobic, simply because I know this is a difficult concept to understand in D&D. Immediately saying someone is "bigoted" without understanding why they feel that was will never solve the root cause of the problem.
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Nov 27, 2015 15:08
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No, people aren't islamophobic because Muslims don't march, people justify their islamophobia by saying a patented lie, which is that Muslims don't march. Muslims marching won't do poo poo, because so far it hasn't done poo poo. Your post does nothing but reinforce this lie. Good job I guess.
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Nov 27, 2015 15:15
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Muslims don't owe you poo poo. They shouldn't have to march just for you or any Westerner to show that they don't support terrorist attacks, because it is already obvious to anyone who isn't terminally bigoted. Seriously. Why aren't you marching every time a Muslim gets shot because of a ''parking dispute'? Why aren't you marching everytime a young, sexually-frustrated white male decides to shoot up a school?
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Nov 27, 2015 15:18
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Flowers For Algeria posted:No, people aren't islamophobic because Muslims don't march, people justify their islamophobia by saying a patented lie, which is that Muslims don't march. 'I don't hate Jews, I just don't see why Jews don't march in their millions every time an Israeli Jewish Settler shoots at a child. Until they start doing that, they probably deserve any opprobrium.'
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Nov 27, 2015 15:20
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