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boom boom boom posted:a potential "good end" for Mika(building a farm and real life with Atra) Reminding everyone that "buying a farm" is a well-worn, used in the real world euphemism for dying, particularly in military contexts.
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Nov 27, 2015 06:50
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SyntheticPolygon posted:Atra and Kudelia are both cool imo. As are most of the characters Atra is still a boring doormat with no personality.
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Nov 27, 2015 07:56
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I want to defend Kudelia just in principle because she has a decent hook to her character about how a privileged big-picture focused politician has come face to face with a million really lovely little problems she can't do anything about. Unfortunately, her arc is going nowhere fast because it's tied up in the main plot where she's taken to earth. Atra, yeah, doesn't really have an arc and seems to exist as a counterpoint to Mika and Kudelia, but I don't know if every character in this fairly large cast wants or needs a proper arc. Mika/Orga/Kudelia seem to be the big three and everyone else mainly matters in relation to them, imo.
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Nov 27, 2015 11:49
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Lestaki posted:I want to defend Kudelia just in principle because she has a decent hook to her character about how a privileged big-picture focused politician has come face to face with a million really lovely little problems she can't do anything about. Unfortunately, her arc is going nowhere fast because it's tied up in the main plot where she's taken to earth. Kudelia is actually doing something - she's giving child soldiers an opportunity not to be child soldiers. Teaching the kids to read is, in its own way, as big a deal as Mikazuki's giant robot ultraviolence - he's keeping them alive, but she's giving them the option of a life that doesn't depend on giant robot ultraviolence. Couple that with deprogramming the toxic mindsets they've built up (which she's already started on with Mika) and she's a pretty important player. The thing with Atra is that she doesn't have a clear, defined role yet - she's mainly just helping Kudelia with what she's doing. Since she's a major character, that's not really enough for her from a storytelling perspective - she either needs to be removed from play or come into her own, and I'm hoping for the latter.
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Nov 27, 2015 12:02
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Is Atra a major character? By virtue of mainly being around to help characterise Kudelia and Mika I wouldn't say she is. She's got character of her own of course but her main purpose is to help out with Mika and Kudelia's development. Which isn't a bad thing, I suppose if she was more prominent it would be but that isn't really the case. She's got a role in the story and she's serving it fine, if she starts getting more focus as the story continues then she should get more development and significance but acting like the only point of her being around would be to die if she doesn't get a larger role is just silly. It might just be because i'm new to mecha shows or whatever but I don't think it's common for minor characters to exist to die, just because.
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Nov 27, 2015 12:21
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SyntheticPolygon posted:Is Atra a major character? By virtue of mainly being around to help characterise Kudelia and Mika I wouldn't say she is. She's got character of her own of course but her main purpose is to help out with Mika and Kudelia's development. Which isn't a bad thing, I suppose if she was more prominent it would be but that isn't really the case. She's got a role in the story and she's serving it fine, if she starts getting more focus as the story continues then she should get more development and significance but acting like the only point of her being around would be to die if she doesn't get a larger role is just silly. She's a viewpoint character with a lot of screentime - she's at least as important as Biscuit, who does indeed have a clear role as the oft-frustrated voice of reason (and a potential arc in his increasing loss of confidence in Orga). Plus, she is, as mentioned, one of the most important people in Mika's life - remember how he treats her bracelet? That's before you get into how the camerawork keeps framing her and Kudelia as equal presences, too, and it'd be hard to argue the latter isn't a major character.
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Nov 27, 2015 12:29
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Rosshiu of gurten Lagan was nothing for basically up until the time skip, I'm just saying hold off on the constant "she ain't going nowhere" thing. 26 episodes is plenty of time.
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Nov 27, 2015 12:45
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Tae posted:Rosshiu of gurten Lagan was nothing for basically up until the time skip, I'm just saying hold off on the constant "she ain't going nowhere" thing. 26 episodes is plenty of time. And, as mentioned, Atra has had way more focus than pre-timeskip Rossiu. I'm sure she'll end up being important somehow, I'm just not sure how. Come to think about it, I really can't think of many members of the Isaribi's crew who are satellites to other characters without something going on of their own (other than barely-there walking props like Akihiro's Human Debris friends). Even Norba, Orga's loud, dimwitted yes-man, has that kid with a crush on him. It makes Atra's relative lack of stuff to do all the more striking.
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Nov 27, 2015 13:07
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Lestaki posted:I want to defend Kudelia just in principle because she has a decent hook to her character about how a privileged big-picture focused politician has come face to face with a million really lovely little problems she can't do anything about. Unfortunately, her arc is going nowhere fast because it's tied up in the main plot where she's taken to earth. Kudelia's arc can't progress until they get to earth but heck, that's okay. They'll get there eventually. In the meantime I'm enjoying how she gradually learns more and more about the people she wants to represent.
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Nov 27, 2015 13:47
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Srice posted:In the meantime I'm enjoying how she gradually learns more and more about the people she wants to represent. She gets character growth from seeing how normal people live, so her arc is definitely progressing as a result of everything happening in the show, just slowly.
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Nov 27, 2015 14:39
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I think they kept Atra around as a reminder of the simple martian life they're ultimately fighting for. I do wish she were more than that.
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Nov 27, 2015 15:26
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Lemon Curdistan posted:She gets character growth from seeing how normal people live, so her arc is definitely progressing as a result of everything happening in the show, just slowly. Not only that, but she's pushing back. Her job at the moment seems to be deprogramming Tekkadan's child soldiers, giving the skills, knowledge and mindset necessary to escape their horrible lives. Teaching them how to read is a key part of that. It'll likely put her in conflict with Orga, who wants them to be successful, respected, and well-paid child soldiers, but still child soldiers. Plus, if Orga does somehow get removed from the picture, she may get a crash course in leadership a little sooner than Earth.
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Nov 27, 2015 15:26
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Kudelia's arc has some nice subtle moments. In the first fight she holes up in the bunker, the safest area, wondering what the hell is going on. In the last fight, she's directed to go to the central block, the safest part of the ship, but she'll be unable to observe the battle. Kudelia herself decides to go back to the bridge to see what's happening, though she'll be in greater danger by doing so. She's got a bit of the cliche "peace princess" in her but she's definitely one of the better ones in Gundam so far.
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Nov 27, 2015 17:06
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Monaghan posted:Kudelia's arc has some nice subtle moments. In the first fight she holes up in the bunker, the safest area, wondering what the hell is going on. In the last fight, she's directed to go to the central block, the safest part of the ship, but she'll be unable to observe the battle. Kudelia herself decides to go back to the bridge to see what's happening, though she'll be in greater danger by doing so. She's alright, and she's got good potential, but she's no Dianna Sorel or Relena Peacecraft (she's no Aida either, but Aida definetely isn't a peace princess).
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Nov 27, 2015 17:14
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Darth Walrus posted:She's a viewpoint character with a lot of screentime - she's at least as important as Biscuit, who does indeed have a clear role as the oft-frustrated voice of reason (and a potential arc in his increasing loss of confidence in Orga). Plus, she is, as mentioned, one of the most important people in Mika's life - remember how he treats her bracelet? You say this but I don't think Biscuit is very important either. He's there to be Orga's more sensible but less exciting foil. As de facto XO he's the only character (until Gangster McHarem arrived, anyway) who gives the audience insight into Orga's doubts and his true thoughts, since the rest of the time Orga is putting on a show for the team. He may or may not get a minor arc but it will be just that. Meanwhile, the show is very much about Orga, Mika, and to a lesser extent Kudelia. This may just come down to arguing semantics about what 'main character' means but I'd really struggle to stretch that definition to include Atra or Biscuit on their present showings. Being a viewpoint character isn't the same thing. They're both more or less along for the ride and their significance to the story is tied up in their relationships with the protagonists. Just as you say, the most important thing about Atra is that she's important to Mika. Srice posted:In the meantime I'm enjoying how she gradually learns more and more about the people she wants to represent. Yeah I definitely like her material overall. I appreciated that after some back and forth she concluded she wasn't wrong to be focused on the macro stuff because that's where her value lies but she's also found stuff to do in the meantime. I was short-changing her somewhat- it's fair that people have called out how she's busy trying to teach the kids and expand their possibilities while Orga is trying to make them the best child soldiers ever.
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Nov 27, 2015 18:39
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MonsieurChoc posted:She's alright, and she's got good potential, but she's no Dianna Sorel or Relena Peacecraft (she's no Aida either, but Aida definetely isn't a peace princess). But were any of them particularly better 8 episodes into their respective shows?
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Nov 27, 2015 19:39
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dogsicle posted:But were any of them particularly better 8 episodes into their respective shows? Relena was already pursuing a guy who had been nothing but coldly murderous towards her. And I think Diana had already made her switcheroo. But yeah, it's a bit early to call her flat, I think. Kudelia is more conventional but she still has potential. It's gonna be really interesting to see what happens when she gets to earth. It hasn't been completely clear to me to what degree she is just a figurehead or a real politician. She's obviously out of her element now, but we haven't had a chance to see her in her element yet.
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Nov 27, 2015 19:54
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That would be really cool, watching the indecisive, fish-out-of-water Kudelia get back into what she really knows how to do and become an ice-cold political operator that doesn't flinch with metaphorical (or even literal) guns aimed to her head.
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Nov 27, 2015 20:10
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dogsicle posted:But were any of them particularly better 8 episodes into their respective shows? Why should that matter to my post? My answer boils down to "not yet", or I wouldn't have mentionned her potential.
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Nov 27, 2015 20:14
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MonsieurChoc posted:Why should that matter to my post? My answer boils down to "not yet", or I wouldn't have mentionned her potential. it just seems weird to say "she's no [other Gundam girls]," when all your points of comparison are fully developed and some even had twice the episodes to develop over. that's why i asked if any of the others eclipsed her within the same span of episodes, which is at least a more valid comparison.
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Nov 27, 2015 20:22
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If Orga dies, not even Atra will be able to stop Mika's battle trance. Also comparing Orga to Kamina is unfair, since Gurren Lagann is a series where having guts is not only a strategy, but also a world-shattering power.
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Nov 28, 2015 00:38
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Maybe he'll stop when he sees Atra's horrified reaction to seeing his cold blooded murderer side for the first time, and he'll finally start thinking 'hey I guess I'm pretty hosed up maybe I should do some introspecting'. I hope not though since I can already see in my head how tedious several episodes dedicated to Mika trying to change and win Atra back would be.
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Nov 28, 2015 00:46
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Xy Hapu posted:Maybe he'll stop when he sees Atra's horrified reaction to seeing his cold blooded murderer side for the first time, and he'll finally start thinking 'hey I guess I'm pretty hosed up maybe I should do some introspecting'. I hope not though since I can already see in my head how tedious several episodes dedicated to Mika trying to change and win Atra back would be. Seems pretty unlikely. From the scene with the bracelet in episode 3, it seems he's already pretty well aware that Atra would not be at ease with him just stone cold shooting people in the face. She's a different part of his life, and those parts shouldn't come together, but that doesn't mean he hates the whole merciless killing machine part.
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Nov 28, 2015 01:45
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dogsicle posted:But were any of them particularly better 8 episodes into their respective shows? Well Dianna was only introduced around about episode 6 and didn't really get any kind of focus until the switcheroo in episode 8 or 9 while Turn-A is twice the length of Iron-Blooded Orphan (and thus IBO should be moving about twice the clip in regards to pacing) so I think episode 16 is a good point to stand back and view what Dianna was up to in comparison. Fair warning before I go any further though, I'm a huge Dianna and Turn-A fan and it'd be almost impossible for Kudelia to eclipse her at least in my eyes because of it. I also think there's a good argument to be made that Dianna and Kihel are the main characters of Turn-A and not Loran they're so central to the show and Kudelia is unlikely to be that important when all's said and done. That said, by episode 16 Dianna had been introduced as the Queen of the Moon and done some preliminary politicking calming tensions between the Earth and Moon when things threatened to become violent (I think she may have even done so twice in that short period) before swapping with Kihel - at which point she really takes to the role of Kihel and the chance to be a normal person. She demonstrates on several occasions even in those episodes that she really has no desire to be a political figurehead and just wants to be a regular civilian, going for a bike ride with Loran down a mountain, running around and exploring, having a picnic and generally just enjoying a chance at freedom. She also picks up a shotgun and threatens Corin Nander in his mobile suit, "pretending" to be Dianna to get his attention and showing a lot of bravery in how she deals with the situations she's in. After which, we get to see a slice of her backstory when she comes across the descendant of a previous lover, giving us a taste of just how little control she has over her own life (when he left on an adventure to earn her hand in marriage she was forcibly transported back to the Moon and put back in statis). In the first 10 or so episodes she's in Dianna goes through a wide variety of situations and shows an appropriately wide range of emotion and response to all the things going on around her. She helps people, but is also more directly involved in what's going on around her and resolving the situations that arise. She is by far the best princess character in the franchise (one of the best in anime in my opinion) and I don't think Kudelia is nearly as compelling by this point of the show. I think she could be interesting, but it depends on what happens when she reaches Earth. The stuff happening with her character right now, like teaching the kids to read is good, but not really particularly compelling in it's own right and only good as part of a larger tapestry, where I think Dianna is interesting in and of herself, but I think assessment of her will really rest on what her actual role in the story is and what she does when she gets to Earth. It's a somewhat unfair comparison by nature though, because Turn-A does have twice the episode order and could take the time to have episodes focus on Dianna while it's relaxed pacing meant that even in non-focus episodes the show had a lot of time to breathe and explore their character. tsob fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Nov 28, 2015 |
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Nov 28, 2015 02:02
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dogsicle posted:it just seems weird to say "she's no [other Gundam girls]," when all your points of comparison are fully developed and some even had twice the episodes to develop over. that's why i asked if any of the others eclipsed her within the same span of episodes, which is at least a more valid comparison. I was just answering "she's one of the best" with "not yet" dude.
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Nov 28, 2015 05:53
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MonsieurChoc posted:I was just answering "she's one of the best" with "not yet" dude. to be fair I said "one of the better ones so far" I think her development is promising, but hey the series could drop the ball.
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Nov 28, 2015 06:39
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Atra's role in the story is to reign in Kudelia's Wild Unfeminine Ideas like politics or direct violence and provide an example for her to strive for in her transformation into a Proper Motherly Female, as is the right and correct place for a woman (ie, behind the Young Men Making Hard Decisions) in the ISO standard Fascist Narrative only half joking since I'm not entirely sold on IBO yet due to its as-of-yet unsubverted paralells to the classic propagandist ideal, and it could really go either way right now (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 28, 2015 07:55
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mr. stefan posted:Atra's role in the story is to reign in Kudelia's Wild Unfeminine Ideas like politics or direct violence and provide an example for her to strive for in her transformation into a Proper Motherly Female, as is the right and correct place for a woman (ie, behind the Young Men Making Hard Decisions) in the ISO standard Fascist Narrative please no 
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Nov 28, 2015 08:02
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:please no I mean its really hard to deny that IBO has been leaning hard on fascist iconography (Mika's dream life of "do the violence then do the farming" is some straight-up Mussolini's Ideal Citizen poo poo) and its kind of early to tell if its unironic or being setup for a hard turn left, but I'll straight up say right now that Atra and Kudelia's interactions have been eyebrow-raising as gently caress so far since the subtext is straight up "why don't you want to be more like this passive wifely farm girl, since you suck so much as a politician" and it has yet to provide a reason why.
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Nov 28, 2015 08:09
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Isn't she extremely good at being a politician? Like she's privileged and not great at underhanded stuff but she's apparently absurdly talented at political stuff. Also every time she's actually brought up politicizing everyone around her as treated it as an ideal and good thing to do. Even Mika seems positive towards her when she explained her goal to him in a recent episode.
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Nov 28, 2015 08:11
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ImpAtom posted:Isn't she extremely good at being a politician? Like she's privileged and not great at underhanded stuff but she's apparently absurdly talented at political stuff. Also every time she's actually brought up politicizing everyone around her as treated it as an ideal and good thing to do. Even Mika seems positive towards her when she explained her goal to him in a recent episode. The show says she is a good politician, but what we actually see is someone who is good at giving speeches and set up a governmental meeting behind the backs of the Space Police (and if you think that meeting isn't going to turn out to be some kind of trap or political outmaneuvering so that earth can gently caress up Mars even more, then lol,) which is very much not the same as being a good politician. In fact, it'd be pretty fair to say that any modern definition of Good Politician implicitly involves being good at The Underhanded Stuff, as you put it.
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Nov 28, 2015 08:15
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mr. stefan posted:The show says she is a good politician, but what we actually see is someone who is good at giving speeches and set up a governmental meeting behind the backs of the Space Police (and if you think that meeting isn't going to turn out to be some kind of trap or political outmaneuvering so that earth can gently caress up Mars even more, then lol) and is utterly inept at everything else they put their hands to. I really don't think they're implying she's inept. At best she's naive. Regardless, her speeches are treated as big significant things which made her the figurehead of the Mars movements so I think just going 'she's good at giving speeches" is underplaying how the show is presenting her. mr. stefan posted:In fact, it'd be pretty fair to say that any modern definition of Good Politician implicitly involves being good at The Underhanded Stuff, as you put it. You might say that but that doesn't mean the show is saying that. It's fairly common for a show to argue that there can be good upstanding politicians with strong ideals and that is something to strive for. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 08:20 on Nov 28, 2015 |
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Nov 28, 2015 08:17
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mr. stefan posted:I mean its really hard to deny that IBO has been leaning hard on fascist iconography (Mika's dream life of "do the violence then do the farming" is some straight-up Mussolini's Ideal Citizen poo poo) and its kind of early to tell if its unironic or being setup for a hard turn left, but I'll straight up say right now that Atra and Kudelia's interactions have been eyebrow-raising as gently caress so far since the subtext is straight up "why don't you want to be more like this passive wifely farm girl, since you suck so much as a politician" and it has yet to provide a reason why. It's also, you know, the style for Cincinnatus and George Washington, who were idealized in democratic societies for thousands of years before Mussolini was born. Look, fascists were the absolute worst, no question, but that doesn't mean everything they've ever said anything good about is just as lovely.
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Nov 28, 2015 08:20
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chiasaur11 posted:It's also, you know, the style for Cincinnatus and George Washington, who were idealized in democratic societies for thousands of years before Mussolini was born. The Italian Fascists didn't invent the ideas, just codify them after millenia of hard use. Also, Cincinnatus was a huge rear end in a top hat.
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Nov 28, 2015 08:28
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chiasaur11 posted:It's also, you know, the style for Cincinnatus and George Washington, who were idealized in democratic societies for thousands of years before Mussolini was born. Vegetarianism is objectively bad though. Also dogs.
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Nov 28, 2015 08:36
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mr. stefan posted:The Italian Fascists didn't invent the ideas, just codify them after millenia of hard use. Also, Cincinnatus was a huge rear end in a top hat. Just to be clear, you would consider this a fascist statue? 
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Nov 28, 2015 08:37
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That famous fascist tome, the book of Isaiah,
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Nov 28, 2015 08:37
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No, because the metaphor "swords into ploughshares" refers to the deconstruction of the Military Industrial Complex and the redirection of its resources into peaceful applications, whereas the "Mussolini's ideal citizen" comment is referring to how fascist italy literally had a policy of every able-bodied man not at war was to be drafted into agricultural service and agricultural service was held up as an ideal role for a citizen.
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Nov 28, 2015 08:45
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The concept of war ending and then peace happening is fascist
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Nov 28, 2015 08:45
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mr. stefan posted:No, because the metaphor "swords into ploughshares" refers to the deconstruction of the Military Industrial Complex and the redirection of its resources into peaceful applications, whereas the "Mussolini's ideal citizen" comment is referring to how fascist italy literally had a policy of every able-bodied man not at war was to be drafted into agricultural service. What the gently caress does that have to do with this show? He wants to be a farmer, maybe because it's literally the only example of a normal family life he has ever seen. That's not fascist. "Spoiled rich girl can't do regular chores right" isn't fascist either, you weirdo
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Nov 28, 2015 08:47
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